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The Anders Thread: Flash Fic Contest! Details on Pg. 2274


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#43376
ipgd

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

At this point, I think the word terrorist is functionally useless.

Indeed, the entire Wikipedia article on the Definition of Terrorism is basically scholars throwing up their hands and saying "it's become nothing more than a political cudgel; at this point there's no hope of having it mean anything coherent ever again."

I'm not going to argue whether or not Anders is a terrorist, because the word's definition is so vague that it can be applied to practically anyone who has ever done anything that results in people being afraid. I just wish it would stop coming up, and every time it does I get a dark pit in my chest. It's almost a Godwin, at this point... heck, I'd say it's worse than a Godwin, because that word actually MEANS something specific and has a very specific historical relevance.

It's relevant in this case even as a political cudgel; Anders is pretty explicitly set up to "match" Meredith in the weight of her actions (basically what Shorts says about the terrorism/police state dichotomy). Without the ability to assess the severity of his actions objectively the choice becomes whitewashed and easy. What he did was ****ty, even if you ultimately agree with it or feel the ends justify the means, and whitewashing it just feels like a disservice to the narrative to me.

I don't feel the word itself is really the issue, more so the flanderization of terrorists themselves by the west. It becomes difficult to look at it objectively when it's associated with such groups as al-Qaeda, whom have effectively been painted as evil boogeymen with no goals beyond hatred and bloodlust; with the acknowledgment that even they are human beings with motivations and philosophies behind their actions, unsympathetic to us as they may be, the subject as a whole is less muddled.

Anders does not have to be evil or maliciously aiming to create chaos for no reason to be a terrorist. In fact, that the evil devils some immediately associate with that label do not exist as we know them, either.

#43377
Sialater

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

*snip insightfullness*


It's my train of thought when playing all of Dragon Age. 

Modifié par Sialater, 09 juin 2011 - 03:25 .


#43378
CulturalGeekGirl

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elenilote wrote...
But not sure why you think this would be disrespectful? I might be missing something, please enlighten me if I am... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]

Well, because of Godwin's law... the rule that it's inappropriate to reference that historical event in particular in any online debate.

Probably most kids today wouldn't call me on it, but I'm always worried. Maybe I'm too hypersensitive to the internet's arbitrary rhetorical constraints.

The funny thing is that I never play a mage as my main... so all my characters are non-mage mage sympathizers.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 juin 2011 - 03:26 .


#43379
Guest_ElleMullineux_*

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Since when has this thread shyed away from the controversial? O.o

#43380
Sialater

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well, because of Godwin's law... the rule that it's inappropriate to reference that historical event in particular in any online debate.

Probably most kids today wouldn't call me on it, but I'm always worried. Maybe I'm too hypersensitive to the internet's arbitrary rhetorical constraints.


I dunno... I'm feeling kinda revolutionary today.  So... you have my support?

#43381
Reflection Muse

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
In every single conversation about mages I want to post the following, and do not because I'm worried that it's inappropriate/disrespectful/gauche:

"First they came for the mages, and I didn't speak out because I was not a mage.
Then they came for the elves, and I didn't speak out because I was not an elf.
Then they came for followers of the Qun, and I didn't speak out because I was not a Quinari
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."


I think that's very profound, powerful, and appropriate. I really like it and appreciate you posting it.

#43382
ipgd

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ElleMullineux wrote...

Since when has this thread shyed away from the controversial? O.o

Uh, yeah. Post whatever you want, dude. Nobody's going to get anal pained over it here.

#43383
elenilote

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 This page clearly needs more Anders

Posted Image

byhttp://honestlies.de...ited-201298193' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'> HonestLies

Modifié par elenilote, 09 juin 2011 - 03:28 .


#43384
Sialater

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Reflection Muse wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
In every single conversation about mages I want to post the following, and do not because I'm worried that it's inappropriate/disrespectful/gauche:

"First they came for the mages, and I didn't speak out because I was not a mage.
Then they came for the elves, and I didn't speak out because I was not an elf.
Then they came for followers of the Qun, and I didn't speak out because I was not a Quinari
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."


I think that's very profound, powerful, and appropriate. I really like it and appreciate you posting it.


Hehe, I think that paraphrased quote should be an Anders Motto. ;)

#43385
andrastepreserveme

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Look everyone! Anders is cute!


Posted Image

By honestlies

#43386
elenilote

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mandamcmoo wrote...

Look everyone! Anders is cute!


Posted Image

By honestlies


OHMG! Why have I not faved that??? *runs off to dA*

#43387
elenilote

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 Look! She made another one!


Posted Image

Again by HonestLies

#43388
CulturalGeekGirl

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ipgd wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

At this point, I think the word terrorist is functionally useless.

Indeed, the entire Wikipedia article on the Definition of Terrorism is basically scholars throwing up their hands and saying "it's become nothing more than a political cudgel; at this point there's no hope of having it mean anything coherent ever again."

I'm not going to argue whether or not Anders is a terrorist, because the word's definition is so vague that it can be applied to practically anyone who has ever done anything that results in people being afraid. I just wish it would stop coming up, and every time it does I get a dark pit in my chest. It's almost a Godwin, at this point... heck, I'd say it's worse than a Godwin, because that word actually MEANS something specific and has a very specific historical relevance.

It's relevant in this case even as a political cudgel; Anders is pretty explicitly set up to "match" Meredith in the weight of her actions (basically what Shorts says about the terrorism/police state dichotomy). Without the ability to assess the severity of his actions objectively the choice becomes whitewashed and easy. What he did was ****ty, even if you ultimately agree with it or feel the ends justify the means, and whitewashing it just feels like a disservice to the narrative to me.

I don't feel the word itself is really the issue, more so the flanderization of terrorists themselves by the west. It becomes difficult to look at it objectively when it's associated with such groups as al-Qaeda, whom have effectively been painted as evil boogeymen with no goals beyond hatred and bloodlust; with the acknowledgment that even they are human beings with motivations and philosophies behind their actions, unsympathetic to us as they may be, the subject as a whole is less muddled.

Anders does not have to be evil or maliciously aiming to create chaos for no reason to be a terrorist. In fact, that the evil devils some immediately associate with that label do not exist as we know them, either.


The problems is that when a political term's definition is so broad and amorphorus that it can include Moses, Timothy McVeigh, the X-Men, Joan of Arc, the French Resistance, any branch of any active military, graffiti artists, abolitionists, Commander Shepard, the KKK, Harrison Bergeron, the humans in Battlefield Earth, participants in the Stonewall Riots, the cast of One Piece, and Robespierre... it really doesn't mean anything.

At this point the word can be used for anyone who does anything in order to provoke change in a way that causes anyone to be afraid at all. Some definitions require them not to be part of a government, some don't. Some definitions require people be injured in the attempt, some don't. The original definition actually required a terrorist be part of a government... terrorism was something that governments did. The term was coined to describe the new French Revolutionary Government scaring the crap out of the monarchy and nobility. It developed its current meaning when used to describe Jewish tactics against the British in Palestine in the 1940s.

"If the basis of a popular government in peacetime is virtue, its basis in a time of revolution is virtue and terror -- virtue, without which terror would be barbaric; and terror, without which virtue would be impotent."
- Robespierre, describing the policy of terrorism, 1794

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 juin 2011 - 03:46 .


#43389
andrastepreserveme

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I have uncovered the truth!

Posted Image

Modifié par mandamcmoo, 09 juin 2011 - 03:48 .


#43390
Reflection Muse

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mandamcmoo wrote...

I have uncovered the truth!

Posted Image


Haha! That's awesome. I haven't seen that one before. Justicekitty assumes control!

#43391
Sialater

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

ipgd wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

At this point, I think the word terrorist is functionally useless.

Indeed, the entire Wikipedia article on the Definition of Terrorism is basically scholars throwing up their hands and saying "it's become nothing more than a political cudgel; at this point there's no hope of having it mean anything coherent ever again."

I'm not going to argue whether or not Anders is a terrorist, because the word's definition is so vague that it can be applied to practically anyone who has ever done anything that results in people being afraid. I just wish it would stop coming up, and every time it does I get a dark pit in my chest. It's almost a Godwin, at this point... heck, I'd say it's worse than a Godwin, because that word actually MEANS something specific and has a very specific historical relevance.

It's relevant in this case even as a political cudgel; Anders is pretty explicitly set up to "match" Meredith in the weight of her actions (basically what Shorts says about the terrorism/police state dichotomy). Without the ability to assess the severity of his actions objectively the choice becomes whitewashed and easy. What he did was ****ty, even if you ultimately agree with it or feel the ends justify the means, and whitewashing it just feels like a disservice to the narrative to me.

I don't feel the word itself is really the issue, more so the flanderization of terrorists themselves by the west. It becomes difficult to look at it objectively when it's associated with such groups as al-Qaeda, whom have effectively been painted as evil boogeymen with no goals beyond hatred and bloodlust; with the acknowledgment that even they are human beings with motivations and philosophies behind their actions, unsympathetic to us as they may be, the subject as a whole is less muddled.

Anders does not have to be evil or maliciously aiming to create chaos for no reason to be a terrorist. In fact, that the evil devils some immediately associate with that label do not exist as we know them, either.


The problems is that when a political term's definition is so broad and amorphorus that it can include Moses, Timothy McVeigh, the X-Men, Joan of Arc, the French Resistance, any branch of any active military, graffiti artists, abolitionists, Commander Shepard, the KKK, Harrison Bergeron, the humans in Battlefield Earth, participants in the Stonewall Riots, the cast of One Piece, and Robespierre... it really doesn't mean anything.

At this point the word can be used for anyone who does anything in order to provoke change in a way that causes anyone to be afraid at all. Some definitions require them not to be part of a government, some don't. Some definitions require people be injured in the attempt, some don't. The original definition actually required a terrorist be part of a government... terrorism was something that governments did. The term was coined to describe the new French Revolutionary Government scaring the crap out of the monarchy and nobility. It developed its current meaning when used to describe Jewish tactics against the British in Palestine in the 1940s.

"If the basis of a popular government in peacetime is virtue, its basis in a time of revolution is virtue and terror -- virtue, without which terror would be barbaric; and terror, without which virtue would be impotent."
- Robespierre, describing the policy of terrorism, 1794


I'd like to point out that anyone provoking any change AT ALL is often scary.  So, yes, terrorist as a label is useless.  But we can't ignore that he does somewhat deserve the label.  

Terrorism is a tactic.  It's only the purposes it's used for that render it good or evil.

#43392
elenilote

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Reflection Muse wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

I have uncovered the truth!

Posted Image


Haha! That's awesome. I haven't seen that one before. Justicekitty assumes control!



LOVE IT!!! Oh so much

#43393
CulturalGeekGirl

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Sialater wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

"If the basis of a popular government in peacetime is virtue, its basis in a time of revolution is virtue and terror -- virtue, without which terror would be barbaric; and terror, without which virtue would be impotent."
- Robespierre, describing the policy of terrorism, 1794


I'd like to point out that anyone provoking any change AT ALL is often scary.  So, yes, terrorist as a label is useless.  But we can't ignore that he does somewhat deserve the label.  

Terrorism is a tactic.  It's only the purposes it's used for that render it good or evil.


Oh sure. I'm not arguing that he doesn't. I'm arguing that Moses deserves the label exactly as much as Anders does.

Think about it. Dude used a mystical force to kill every firstborn Egyptian to make the Egyptians fear his people enough that they would let his people go.

The reason terrorist is such a terrible, stupid, useless word at this point is that it is so heavily pejorative. Once you put that label on someone, you're putting anyone who wants to rationally argue that person's point at a terrible rhetorical disadvantage. Getting anyone to admit that terrorism can be a valid tactic nowadays is like pulling teeth. That's why I always bring up Moses. He's generally considered a pretty decent guy, and yet he (or the Angel of Death, or whoever you want to pin it on) killed a bunch of innocent babies in order to make a dictatorial government fear him enough to grant his people freedom.

I would argue that kids today are too scared of terrorism and not scared enough of fascism.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 juin 2011 - 04:00 .


#43394
Guest_ElleMullineux_*

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Ugh - see... now we're arguing semantics.

#43395
Sialater

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Sialater wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

"If the basis of a popular government in peacetime is virtue, its basis in a time of revolution is virtue and terror -- virtue, without which terror would be barbaric; and terror, without which virtue would be impotent."
- Robespierre, describing the policy of terrorism, 1794


I'd like to point out that anyone provoking any change AT ALL is often scary.  So, yes, terrorist as a label is useless.  But we can't ignore that he does somewhat deserve the label.  

Terrorism is a tactic.  It's only the purposes it's used for that render it good or evil.


Oh sure. I'm not arguing that he doesn't. I'm arguing that Moses deserves the label exactly as much as Anders does.

Think about it. Dude killed every firstborn Egyptian to make the Egyptians fear his people enough that they would let his people go.

The reason terrorist is such a terrible, stupid, useless word at this point is that it is so heavily pejorative. Once you put that label on someone, you're putting anyone who wants to rationally argue that person's point at a terrible rhetorical disadvantage. Getting anyone to admit that terrorism can be a valid tactic nowadays is like pulling teeth. That's why I always bring up Moses. He's generally considered a pretty decent guy, and yet he (or the Angel of Death, or whoever you want to pin it on) killed a bunch of innocent babies in order to make a dictatorial government fear him enough to grant his people freedom.

I would argue that kids today are too scared of terrorism and not scared enough of fascism.


I agree with you 100%.

#43396
Sialater

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ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh - see... now we're arguing semantics.


I don't think we're arguing so much as clarifying.

#43397
KnightofPhoenix

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Sialater wrote...
I'd like to point out that anyone provoking any change AT ALL is often scary.  So, yes, terrorist as a label is useless.  But we can't ignore that he does somewhat deserve the label.  

Terrorism is a tactic.  It's only the purposes it's used for that render it good or evil.


I agree that it has become academically useless as a label, pretty much like genocide. It needs more specific adjectives to go with it.
Terror was, is and will always be part of war and Anders wanted to start one.

That said, as far as international, non-state driven ideological terrorism goes, Anders fits in that specific definition.

Which of course has nothing to do with whether he is righteous or not, unless you absolutely reject the "ends justifies the means" mantra under any circumstance.

#43398
Hill-Hurwitz

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@CGG I don't find it at all inappropriate. It's very poignant, and the game itself already makes those parallels. Anders has a one-shot banter along those lines when you enter the Alienage: "The elves should stand with us. They have suffered, too." Not only are there elvhen mages, but elvhen society, both city and Dalish, has been severely disenfranchised by the Chantry is differing ways.

#43399
CulturalGeekGirl

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ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh - see... now we're arguing semantics.


Sorry. >_<

It's impossible to have a discussion about terrorism without arguing semantics, that's the problem. That's why I get the dark pit in my chest when it comes up. Because it is literally a subject where the greatest linguistic and political minds of our generation cannot reach a solid agreeable consensus on the meaning of the word, and it's also a word that magically causes everyone involved in the discussion to get angry at the same time that they are also confused.

#43400
KnightofPhoenix

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Oh sure. I'm not arguing that he doesn't. I'm arguing that Moses deserves the label exactly as much as Anders does.


Indeed.

The difference is, Moses was a leader and knew what he was doing (and his tactics went beyond just that). And had legitimacy whether from God and / or the loyalty of his followers. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2011 - 04:06 .