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The Anders Thread: Flash Fic Contest! Details on Pg. 2274


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#43401
Guest_ElleMullineux_*

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Sialater wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh - see... now we're arguing semantics.


I don't think we're arguing so much as clarifying.


As there is no definition, I don't think it can be clarified, all anyone can do is state their case for what they believe and... yeah, I played at that a month ago or something, but I wish you a happy day of debating and fun times. Remember to look at pretty Anders pictures too - it makes it a lot more fun!

And on this delightful note I've finished work now and am out for the evening.

I will look forward to reading the 6+pages I expect will appear in the next 5 hours Posted Image

#43402
elenilote

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*Mwah* see you later mah lovely!

Here's a little treat for you all:

Posted Image

by Neonowls

#43403
CulturalGeekGirl

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Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

@CGG I don't find it at all inappropriate. It's very poignant, and the game itself already makes those parallels. Anders has a one-shot banter along those lines when you enter the Alienage: "The elves should stand with us. They have suffered, too." Not only are there elvhen mages, but elvhen society, both city and Dalish, has been severely disenfranchised by the Chantry is differing ways.


I really hope we have a chance to ally the Dalish and the City Elves with the Mages in the coming conflict... because civil rights movements need to stick together. My Dalish Warden is all for this... after Alistair and Zevran, Anders was her favorite - and he's only that low because he didn't seem to want to sleep with her. She is pissed as heck at how the Wardens let him down.

My Templar!Hawke wants to found a more inclusive version of Andrasteism. Yes, she basically wants to be the Thedan Martin Luther. I consider this far less likely to be an actual thing you can do in the gameplay, but a girl can dream...

Also, I want a pony.

Posted Image
Friendship is Magic!

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 juin 2011 - 04:19 .


#43404
kromify

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Oh sure. I'm not arguing that he doesn't. I'm arguing that Moses deserves the label exactly as much as Anders does.


Indeed.

The difference is, Moses was a leader and knew what he was doing (and his tactics went beyond just that). And had legitimacy whether from God and / or the loyalty of his followers. 


you hope. hindsight is a wonderful thing  :pinched:

#43405
ipgd

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The word itself is often nebulous as to its exact parameters, but Anders's actions fall under almost any textbook definition of terrorism I can find. Hell, I'll use your link as an example:

"Terrorism sprouts from the existence of aggrieved groups. These aggrieved groups share two essential characteristics: they have specific political objectives, and they believe that violence is an inevitable means to achieve their political ends. The political dimension of terrorist violence is the key factor that distinguishes it from other crimes."

"Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-)clandestine individual, group, or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal, or political reasons, whereby—in contrast to assassination—the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperiled) victims, and main targets are use to manipulate the main target (audience(s), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought".

"Terrorism is illegal violence or threatened violence directed against human or nonhuman objects, provided that it: (1) was undertaken or ordered with a view to altering or maintaining at least one putative norm in at least one particular territorial unit or population: (2) had secretive, furtive, and/or clandestine features that were expected by the participants to conceal their personal identity and/or their future location; (3) was not undertaken or ordered to further the permanent defense of some area; (4) was not conventional warfare and because of their concealed personal identity, concealment of their future location, their threats, and/or their spatial mobility, the participants perceived themselves as less vulnerable to conventional military action; and (5) was perceived by the participants as contributing to the normative goal previously described (supra) by inculcating fear of violence in persons (perhaps an indefinite category of them) other than the immediate target of the actual or threatened violence and/or by publicizing some cause."


It is interesting how, say, in the link you provided, the definitions given become progressively less technical and more reactionarily emotional following 2001.

Getting anyone to admit that terrorism can be a valid tactic nowadays is like pulling teeth.

I admit that terrorism can be a valid tactic.

That I've been willing to say things that could be construed as a defense of al-Qaeda several times should suggest I don't buy into the emotionally charged pejorative use of the word terrorism and that's not what I mean when I use it :innocent:

In effect, I think I'm arguing the same thing you are, but rather "terrorism has an actual definition clouded by media flanderization" than "terrorism no longer has a definition because of media flanderization". But I do think it has at least a concrete framework of a definition, and that it should be used dispassionately rather than discarded entirely. In effect, I disagree with disavowing Anders of the label because of possible pejorative connotations because I think those pejorative connotations are useless and extraneous to the word terrorism.

#43406
KnightofPhoenix

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kromify wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Oh sure. I'm not arguing that he doesn't. I'm arguing that Moses deserves the label exactly as much as Anders does.


Indeed.

The difference is, Moses was a leader and knew what he was doing (and his tactics went beyond just that). And had legitimacy whether from God and / or the loyalty of his followers. 


you hope. hindsight is a wonderful thing  :pinched:


He either knew completely if he indeed had God on his side. Or he had an idea of what he wanted, namely the promised land and what to do once he got there. Did he know everything (without potential Divine intervention)? Of course not, there can be no human ultra master plan.

But I maintain that in his capacity as leader, he had a stronger idea of where he was headed.

#43407
berelinde

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Gah. Once again, this thread moves too fast to keep up with on a work day. And the discussions are something I want to read more about. (sigh) Well, I guess I'll have to read them later and hope that if I wind up necroposting, folks will understand.

#43408
kromify

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to add to the semanticising going on (ooh i made up a word!)  i think anders is not a terrorist by my definition. i think of terrorism as actively attempting to make the pulic want to change a situation, because it's easier to give in to fear than stand up to it.
anders was not targeting the public; he attacked a specific group whom he deemed responsible for the mages plight, and caused said mages to fight back.

all my own opinion  :innocent:

#43409
elenilote

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


Also, I want a pony.

Friendship is Magic!


OHMG - I never knew I wanted one until now. 

#43410
ipgd

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kromify wrote...

anders was not targeting the public

He committed outright iconoclasm. I don't think he's stupid enough to think the public wouldn't have a huge problem with that :whistle:

Modifié par ipgd, 09 juin 2011 - 04:28 .


#43411
kromify

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Oh sure. I'm not arguing that he doesn't. I'm arguing that Moses deserves the label exactly as much as Anders does.


Indeed.

The difference is, Moses was a leader and knew what he was doing (and his tactics went beyond just that). And had legitimacy whether from God and / or the loyalty of his followers. 


you hope. hindsight is a wonderful thing  :pinched:


He either knew completely if he indeed had God on his side. Or he had an idea of what he wanted, namely the promised land and what to do once he got there. Did he know everything (without potential Divine intervention)? Of course not, there can be no human ultra master plan.

But I maintain that in his capacity as leader, he had a stronger idea of where he was headed.


he just couldn't find it for 40 yrs.

lol. all of us stumble around in the dark - some of us are just better at hiding it. hawke is a brilliant example, but not the hiding it part.

i will say that he must have been a strong leader though to get the jews outta egypt. so maybe he did have a pretty good internal compass, but still a pretty lousy external one  :pinched::innocent:

#43412
Sialater

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ipgd wrote...

kromify wrote...

anders was not targeting the public

He committed outright iconoclasm. I don't think he's stupid enough to think the public wouldn't have a huge problem with that :whistle:


He does expect to die for it....

#43413
kromify

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ipgd wrote...

kromify wrote...

anders was not targeting the public

He committed outright iconoclasm. I don't think he's stupid enough to think the public wouldn't have a huge problem with that :whistle:


indeed. everyone has an opinion

#43414
KnightofPhoenix

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kromify wrote...
he just couldn't find it for 40 yrs.


He did find it. He was preparing his people to take it because he isn't an idiot. He was dealing with the outer tribes and peoples at that time (near the dead sea). When they were ready, they went in.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2011 - 04:36 .


#43415
ipgd

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kromify wrote...

indeed. everyone has an opinion

And not all opinions are right and/or exempt from challenge or criticism by virtue of being opinions, and I disagree with your opinion because I feel that the attempt to distance Anders from the label of terrorism is done out of a desire to avoid the gravitas of the issue, transforming it into something more morally palatable and black and white to the disservice of a narrative specifically created in order to make the issue difficult and grey :P

#43416
kromify

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...
he just couldn't find it for 40 yrs.


He did find it. He was preparing his people to take it because he isn't an idiot. He was dealing with the outer tribes and peoples at that time (near the dead sea). When they were ready, they went in.




sure. i don't know the bible that well.   B)

#43417
Hill-Hurwitz

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I really hope we have a chance to ally the Dalish and the City Elves with the Mages in the coming conflict... because civil rights movements need to stick together.


That would make me so very happy. A Elvhen Warden's support for the mage revolution can bring some much needed outsider aid, and I'm sure a heavy dose of clarity. If I remember correctly, the boons a City/Dalish elf can request from Alistair/Anora end up backfiring somewhat over the years - I know I got that epilogue on my Tabris, so she would know all too well about the unexpected results of good intentions.

#43418
kromify

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ipgd wrote...

kromify wrote...

indeed. everyone has an opinion

And not all opinions are right and/or exempt from challenge or criticism by virtue of being opinions, and I disagree with your opinion because I feel that the attempt to distance Anders from the label of terrorism is done out of a desire to avoid the gravitas of the issue, transforming it into something more morally palatable and black and white to the disservice of a narrative specifically created in order to make the issue difficult and grey :P


oh gosh i'm sorry! i didn't mean your opinion, i meant that of the thedas public. i'm quite happy to agree to disagree

have a cookie

Posted Image

#43419
andrastepreserveme

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kromify wrote...

you hope. hindsight is a wonderful thing  :pinched:


YES IT IS!

:happy:

#43420
kromify

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mandamcmoo wrote...

kromify wrote...

you hope. hindsight is a wonderful thing  :pinched:


YES IT IS!

:happy:


:police:   

#43421
KnightofPhoenix

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Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I really hope we have a chance to ally the Dalish and the City Elves with the Mages in the coming conflict... because civil rights movements need to stick together.


That would make me so very happy. A Elvhen Warden's support for the mage revolution can bring some much needed outsider aid, and I'm sure a heavy dose of clarity. If I remember correctly, the boons a City/Dalish elf can request from Alistair/Anora end up backfiring somewhat over the years - I know I got that epilogue on my Tabris, so she would know all too well about the unexpected results of good intentions.


I question how willing the elves would be to get themselves into this, especially if the mages screw up in PR, which based on what we've seen is very likely to happen.

Mages need to have a good chance at winning for them to get these kinds of allies, and something that they can promise to give (unless the Dalish are just as stupid and blind). Another Dalish nation? Where? Should we kick the human settlers out to please the Dalish? What do you think 99% of humans will think?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2011 - 04:48 .


#43422
elenilote

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mandamcmoo wrote...

kromify wrote...

you hope. hindsight is a wonderful thing  :pinched:


YES IT IS!

:happy:


:wizard:  APPROVAL +100

#43423
ashyraine

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kromify wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

kromify wrote...

you hope. hindsight is a wonderful thing  :pinched:


YES IT IS!

:happy:


:police:   


Do want MOAR :D

#43424
Addai

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I shouldn't.  I really shouldn't.  But I guess I'm going to.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
"First they came for the mages, and I didn't speak out because I was not a mage.
Then they came for the elves, and I didn't speak out because I was not an elf.
Then they came for followers of the Qun, and I didn't speak out because I was not a Quinari
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me." 

The problem is that you've conveniently located "they" outside yourself, in a monolithic mass, easily demonized.  Ask yourself when it is that they becomes you.

Let's recall that Anders doesn't take out Elthina because she's oppressing mages, but because she represents the possibility of a compromise between mages and templars.

#43425
ipgd

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Addai67 wrote...

Let's recall that Anders doesn't take out Elthina because she's oppressing mages, but because she represents the possibility of a compromise between mages and templars.

More accurately, she represents the compromise, i.e. the status quo Anders finds unacceptable.