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[KnightofPhoenix]

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...
As far as gain; existence is a powerful motivator. If the Chantry defeats the mages, how long will it take before they turn their gaze again on the Dalish? They only don't bother with them right now because they've got other concerns, and they're too much trouble otherwise. Why wait if you can strike the first blood against your old aggressor?

Well the Dalish, quite stupidly, decided to ignore the second blight while it was massacring humans, when it was clearly an existential threat to them. So I doubt they will be easily persuaded to see the situation in the way you describe.

And even if they do, they may end up wanting more after they somehow win.

The end of WWI held the cataylst for WWII, and we know there's potiental war with the Qunari on the horizon. That's the key, really. Mages, especially educated mages, are the best defense Thedas has. If the Chantry wants to survive at all it has to change - so my Hawke's going to find as much pressures as she can throw at them.

Alternatively, this Thedasian Civil war will be the perfect context for a Qunari invasion that will claim to liberate the common folk of the fear of magic. Considering how stupid mages were in DA2, I think it's very likely they will manage to scare most off.

The Chatnry has to change, agreed. The only ones capable of doing that relatively easily are states. Not a band of romantic rebels.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

SurelyForth wrote...

Exactly. It's the crux of my favorite line from his short story, in fact:  "I always knew I wouldn't submit. I could never be what they wanted from me -- compliant, obedient, guilty."

I have not said this in a very long time, if ever, but...

unf.

Seriously that is the sexiest martherfraking thing I've ever heard in my life. Dammit Anders!

[KnightofPhoenix]

SurelyForth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Most didn't see it as being caged, that's the thing.

And I have a problem telling people that I think they are not free, when they either think the opposite or don't care.

I see your point but! They've been taught from childhood that they are cursed with their magic, that they are too dangerous to exist with non-mages, so much so that all contact between them and their family is discouraged or outright forbidden.

I do not deny that, though I think you are overestimating the Chantry's capacity to brainwash. Some are brainwashed, as we've seen in Origins. But most were not, not the way you describe.

Furthermore, when it is acceptable to tell people they are brainwashed? On what basis? When is it acceptable to force them to a war?

I really wouldn't mind that too much, if Anders is in a position to tell them. But for me, he's the very example of a weak willed mage who lost control and sanity. Who is he to say and do all these things?

[kromify]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Exactly. It's the crux of my favorite line from his short story, in fact:  "I always knew I wouldn't submit. I could never be what they wanted from me -- compliant, obedient, guilty."

I have not said this in a very long time, if ever, but...

unf.

Seriously that is the sexiest martherfraking thing I've ever heard in my life. Dammit Anders!

i see you unf and raise you 

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Furthermore, when it is acceptable to tell people they are brainwashed? On what basis? When is it acceptable to force them to a war?

 

it happens a lot on the internet when religious folk start preaching. 

[Addai]

Sialater wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There is no compromising with the Chantry. That has never been an option. The Chantry is not open to compromise, and claiming that it is... that's how they get you.

Well, then, I suppose you have all the justification you need for whatever done in the name of taking the Chantry down.

Yes, actually.

As long as we're clear.

[kromify]

 

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not deny that, though I think you are overestimating the Chantry's capacity to brainwash. Some are brainwashed, as we've seen in Origins. But most were not, not the way you describe.

Furthermore, when it is acceptable to tell people they are brainwashed? On what basis? When is it acceptable to force them to a war?

I really wouldn't mind that too much, if Anders is in a position to tell them. But for me, he's the very example of a weak willed mage who lost control and sanity. Who is he to say and do all these things?

 

You know. I got a very different lesson from Ketojan it seems. I got a giant "who am I to tell him how he lives his life is wrong?" message from him. Not some sad statement about brainwashing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 06:19 .

[Hill-Hurwitz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well the Dalish, quite stupidly, decided to ignore the second blight while it was massacring humans, when it was clearly an existential threat to them. So I doubt they will be easily persuaded to see the situation in the way you describe.

Ah, but did they? There's a LOT of racial prejudice, and that tends to have a poor effect from both sides. Seems like most historians in this game are from the Chantry, and history is written by the winners. Considering the Chantry's poor track record, I'm more inclined to believe Dalish claims for the Exalted March.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alternatively,
this Thedasian Civil war will be the perfect context for a Qunari
invasion that will claim to liberate the common folk of the fear of
magic. Considering how stupid mages were in DA2, I think it's very
likely they will manage to scare most off.

Liberation that comes at the cost of everyone's personal freedoms? I doubt that's an acceptable alternative. The Qunari are just as much as a threat to the Chantry, maybe larger. Not to mention - Kirkwall's the Hellmouth. The worst case situation, and even then, there was sympathy for mages. Most mages don't suffer from the Kirkwallein sickness known as being bloody stupid.

As far as how change is aquired, I agree - partially, anyway. Change is rarely easy, and the mages can't act through states because they never had power to begin with -  it can't be just romantic rebels, yes, but that's often how it starts.

Edit: Bah. Have to got to work now, sorry. I'll try not to necro the arguments too much when I get back if you end up replying.

Modifié par Hill-Hurwitz, 09 juin 2011 - 06:25 .

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not deny that, though I think you are overestimating the Chantry's capacity to brainwash. Some are brainwashed, as we've seen in Origins. But most were not, not the way you describe.

Furthermore, when it is acceptable to tell people they are brainwashed? On what basis? When is it acceptable to force them to a war?

I really wouldn't mind that too much, if Anders is in a position to tell them. But for me, he's the very example of a weak willed mage who lost control and sanity. Who is he to say and do all these things?

Weal-willed? Seriously? The guy has one of the strongest wills in the game. He has a purpose, he has a will, and he takes incredible steps to accomplish that. You are free to disagree with his aims, but not his spirit. His sanity is debatable as well. I personally don't consider him "insane."

Anders is someone who wavers between extremes of mania and depression. His moods fluctuate, but he's never completely irrational. He plans the Chantry jenga for a long time, executes it flawlessly (again, by his goals and reasoning), and even recognized that his actions were so big and so terrible on a certain level that it should have resulted in his death. All of these things require some degree of logic.

Again, you can disagree with his aims all you want. I think the crux of it is that you're opposed to his revolution, and thus it's easier to color Anders as just another insane zealot a la Petrice. But that's just not the case.

As for the brainwashing thing...remember the Chantry as the Rite of Tranquility. That's pretty much literal brainwashing at that point, and those who are victims are no longer able to speak to themselves. You ask who is Anders to say and do these things? Just about the only one willing to stand up and say it's wrong. When is it acceptable to force a war? How about when the people you're fighting for have been victimized to the point they're barely human?

[Reflection Muse]

Ryzaki wrote...
You know. I got a very different lesson from Ketojan it seems. I got a giant "who am I to tell him how he lives his life is wrong?" message from him. Not some sad statement about brainwashing. 

Likewise. I may not have agreed or wanted to see him come to the end that he did, but I had to respect that he was doing what he felt was right for him, and that it wasn't my choice to make.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...
Ah, but did they? There's a LOT of racial prejudice, and that tends to have a poor effect from both sides. Seems like most historians in this game are from the Chantry, and history is written by the winners. Considering the Chantry's poor track record, I'm more inclined to believe Dalish claims for the Exalted March.

I highly doubt any historian would be able to hide such a big fact. It's the details and interpretation that changes. Not the hiding of a massic military assistance.

As far as how change is aquired, I agree - partially, anyway. Change is rarely easy, and the mages can't act through states because they never had power to begin with -  it can't be just romantic rebels, yes, but that's often how it starts.

They don't have to act through states, they act in alliance with states as subordinates.

But we shall see what will happen. What I saw of DA2 has my sympathy for mages go down drastically, because of how idiotic they are.

[Sialater]

Reflection Muse wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You know. I got a very different lesson from Ketojan it seems. I got a giant "who am I to tell him how he lives his life is wrong?" message from him. Not some sad statement about brainwashing. 

Likewise. I may not have agreed or wanted to see him come to the end that he did, but I had to respect that he was doing what he felt was right for him, and that it wasn't my choice to make.

But he was still conditioned to believe that was the right thing.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There is no compromising with the Chantry. That has never been an option. The Chantry is not open to compromise, and claiming that it is... that's how they get you.

Well, then, I suppose you have all the justification you need for whatever done in the name of taking the Chantry down.

Honestly, if the Chantry showed a willingness to legitimately compromise, I would be fine with letting it stand.

Let me tell you about my character...

My Hawke is an Alistair style ex-Templar in training. She signed up at the local Chantry at a young age, partially to relieve suspicion on her family (what Templar would abide mages in her family?) and partially because she was a devout Andrastean. When she got there she was shocked... shocked at what the other Templars were saying about mages being cursed, appalled at the Templars bragging about abuses they had committed when they were stationed at the tower. Her sister wasn't a weak, cursed abomination waiting to happen... and if they were that wrong about her sister, maybe they were wrong about all mages.

She believes that such practices are antithetical to Andraste's actual teachings, and monstrous. Evil. It's the only thing she's ever seen in her life other than the darkspawn that she believes is truly, objectively evil... that hate. That torture.

Until she got to Kirkwall, she always dreamed of getting to talk with one of the Grand Clerics. She always thought she'd explain what was happening among the Templars and they'd be shocked... appalled, and they'd fix everything. She was shockingly idealistic and naive.

The fact that the Grand Cleric didn't care, that the Divine didn't care... it crushed her. But it did not destroy her faith.

When I say "there's no compromising with the Chantry." I mean that the current leadership has shown no willingness to truly work together with mages for compromise. The instant a leader of the Chantry steps out and says "whoa whoa whoa, ok... I don't know how this got this bad. Let's legitimately work out a system where we can cooperate, where mages can have rights, where bad Templars are drummed out of the service, and where we don't preach the maker's hate." then we can actually work together.

But there has been absolutely zero evidence of that from any high-ranking Chantry official anywhere in any of the games. It's not about justifying action against the Chantry. It's about being realistic about what the Chantry is offering - which is a future of loneliness and slavery for all mages forever. Nothing better than that is on the table. Nothing better than that has ever been on the table.

The instant anything else hits the table, I will be the happiest person. The first in line to work out a system that works for everyone.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 juin 2011 - 06:31 .

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...
But he was still conditioned to believe that was the right thing.

 

Like you or me? Everyone has a certain amount of conditioning no matter how much you try to fight it. Does that mean we too should have no say so in our fate if someone "better" thinks they can tell us what to do? Or if their culture is more "civilized"? Even if we're involving no one else but ourselves in that decision? 

Reflection Muse wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You know. I got a very different lesson from Ketojan it seems. I got a giant "who am I to tell him how he lives his life is wrong?" message from him. Not some sad statement about brainwashing. 

Likewise. I may not have agreed or wanted to see him come to the end that he did, but I had to respect that he was doing what he felt was right for him, and that it wasn't my choice to make.

Glad I'm not the only one. At first was outraged but after I let it sink the Qunari incident did give me that message. (Which is why I always kill the Arishok. He crssed the line in trying to impose his will on people who rejected it). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 06:32 .

[Addai]

kromify wrote...
RL example - women before the suffrage and WW1 had the same legal rights as children and lunatics. because men believed we couldn't think for ourselves. the chance to change that only came out of a massive tragedy when there were no longer enough men

See, reducing these things to muddled tropes and then associating them with something completely different... it drives me mad.  At various times and in various places- notably medieval Europe- women participated in the political class, owned and inherited and transferred property, were educated and educated others, gave their names to children in matrilineal inheritance, operated in trades, etc.  The notion of "oppressed classes" just infantilizes the people in that supposed block, and then other people who pretend to speak for them get to tell them who they are and what ought to be done on their behalf.

And then we come to mages, and an instance where a guy possessed by a demon- "inhabited by a spirit" if you prefer- gets to speak and act for a whole group of people, commit horrific acts even, and somehow that's all okay because obviously these people can't speak and act for themselves?  Just, no. 

Justice claims to be the embodiment of a human virtue, but virtue in extreme is indistinguishable from a vice.  I'm reminded of Tolkien, who meant with hobbits to represent the "gentle vices" of sloth and gluttony, and show that these things are actually more trustworthy and more human than the high-minded principles of those who claimed to be wise and good but who prove easily corrupted.  One of my favorite exchanges in the game is Torpor telling Justice off, basically asking him who he is to criticize.  Just because Justice is acting for a "cause," to my mind that makes him more dangerous and not less than someone who is simply out for himself.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 juin 2011 - 06:34 .

[highcastle]

Reflection Muse wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You know. I got a very different lesson from Ketojan it seems. I got a giant "who am I to tell him how he lives his life is wrong?" message from him. Not some sad statement about brainwashing. 

Likewise. I may not have agreed or wanted to see him come to the end that he did, but I had to respect that he was doing what he felt was right for him, and that it wasn't my choice to make.

Was it really his choice either, though? To me, that moment was a giant the Qun offers no better answers either moment. Ketojan was told he was barely a person (remember the term sarebaas even means "dangerous thing"). He was told he had to die should his life take a certain turn. There was no living his life as he wanted. I don't know how much he wanted anything.

I'm sorry, but to look at somebody who's living in chains, who has their lips sewn shut, who's conditioned to think of themselves as an object with a handler rather a person with hopes and dreams and desires, and not feel sad...but there's something sad about that too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
Weal-willed? Seriously? The guy has one of the strongest wills in the game. He has a purpose, he has a will, and he takes incredible steps to accomplish that.

I do not see it as *his* will. But that of Vengeance.
Anders quite clearly rejected Secession in Awakening.

He either succumbs to it on friendship. Or tries to fight it on Rivalry and fail.

Codex:
"In the past three years, Anders has become more reclusive, verging on paranoid. The spirit of Vengeance inside him has manifested more strongly, making
it nearly impossible for him to control himself when fighting templars.
"

If Ella was killed:
The past three years has seen Anders cross the edge from moodiness
into open paranoia. Increasingly, his inner struggle against the spirit
Vengeance has boiled over into his dealings with the rest of the world.
It's clear he is losing this fight. 
If Ella lives:
After his attack on Ella, Anders lost interest in the cause of mage
revolution. Convinced that he was no better than an abomination, Anders
was determined to gain mastery over the spirit inside him... or die
trying. It is increasingly apparent that he is losing this struggle.

Anders is someone who wavers between extremes of mania and depression. His moods fluctuate, but he's never completely irrational. He plans the Chantry jenga for a long time, executes it flawlessly (again, by his goals and reasoning), and even recognized that his actions were so big and so terrible on a certain level that it should have resulted in his death. All of these things require some degree of logic.

Insane =/= completely irrational.
He is not a drooling maniac. But he is not sane.

If you want more detail. He is obsessed, narrow-minded, paranoid, hypocritical, losing control of his will..etc etc.

As for the brainwashing thing...remember the Chantry as the Rite of Tranquility. That's pretty much literal brainwashing at that point, and those who are victims are no longer able to speak to themselves.

How many tranquils are there? You speak as if it's common occurence (outside of Kirkwall at the very least). You also speak as if many did not choose to be tranquils, as we have seen in Origins and as David Gaider said.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2011 - 06:34 .

[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...
But he was still conditioned to believe that was the right thing.

 

Like you or me? Everyone has a certain amount of conditioning no matter how much you try to fight it. Does that mean we too should have no say so in our fate if someone "better" thinks they can tell us what to do? Or if their culture is more "civilized"? Even if we're involving no one else but ourselves in that decision? 

There's a difference in the societal pressures faced by members of western societies (i.e. conforming to gender roles, taking part in a materialistic culture, etc.) and being put in chains, having your mouth sewn closed, risking your tongue being cut out, and basically told you're not a person. That's not just conditioning at that point. It's slavery and abuse.

[ashyraine]

Sorry to interrupt the lovely debate but just saw this on DA and had to share:



by pyromaniac03

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...
There's a difference in the societal pressures faced by members of western societies (i.e. conforming to gender roles, taking part in a materialistic culture, etc.) and being put in chains, having your mouth sewn closed, risking your tongue being cut out, and basically told you're not a person. That's not just conditioning at that point. It's slavery and abuse.

 

It's part of their culture.

And who are you to say if he's brainwashed or if he would've believed it all along? Slavery and abuse has comparisons to yes but being raised to be in one specific role, being permitted to do little else. You say this as though only the Saaerbas have a severe lack of freedom, it seems a common factor in the Qun. All they all brainwashed? 

Gah it's so hard to argue about Qunari because we know so little about them. There are plenty of different cultures who would see another culture as being abused.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 06:46 .

[esper]

There is no compromise with the Chantry because diplomacy doesn't really exist in Thedas. All Hero's is warriors to some degree and have won their title by blood. Thedas has not had a ww1 to show how meaningless war is and the chantry's profet won influence not by writing a strongly worded letter but by waring. Why should the Chantry compromise when it is so much easier to simply keep beating the mages down?

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not see it as *his* will. But that of Vengeance.
Anders quite clearly rejected Secession in Awakening.

Anders is clearly anti-establishment and anti-Circle in DAA. "Always up for a spot iconoclasm" was a line from DAA. Delivered with a fair amount of cheek, yes, but Anders deflects with humor. That doesn't mean he doesn't share some of that will. This is a man who escaped time and time again from the Tower. He wasn't happy there. He wasn't happy with the status quo. Justice just gave him a bit more of the focus required to take a stand rather than simply run away.

Insane =/= completely irrational.
He is not a drooling maniac. But he is not sane.

If you want more detail. He is obsessed, narrow-minded, paranoid, hypocritical, losing control of his will..etc etc.

Insanity is a legal definition and not a medical one. To be insane, you must be judged to no longer be fit to be held accountable for your actions. Being paranoid, obsessed, narrow-minded, etc. do not disqualify you from knowing the consequences of your actions (which is pretty much the crux of the insanity defense in the States). Anders knows what he's doing. He. Is. Not. Insane.

How many tranquils are there? You speak as if it's common occurence (outside of Kirkwall at the very least). You also speak as if many did not choose to be tranquils, as we have seen in Origins and as David Gaider said.

Some do choose to become Tranquil. You know why? Because the alternative is death. (Remember Jowan wasn't going to be Harrowed. They were just going to Tranquil him outright or else kill him. No wonder he turned to blood magic.) A choice without a suitable alternative is not a choice at all. It's made under duress. Going back to criminology for a moment, if someone holds you at gunpoint and forces you to kill someone else, they're the one responsible for that crime. Not you. So if the templars tell you they'll kill you if you don't agree to the Rite of Tranquility, it's still a crime.

There might be some leeway involved with someone who chooses tranquility over the harrowing. But even then, you have to ask yourself is the harrowing right? Is it right to knowingly inflict demons on mages? It seems like asking for trouble.

And just because some mages "choose" to be tranquil, not all do. The woman from the Justice quest certainly didn't want to be made tranquil and raped, yet Alrik would have done it. There's another woman walking around the Gallows who was made tranquil against her will. You can listen to some truly heartbreaking dialogue between her and her ex-boyfriend.

[kromify]

highcastle - have i told you recently how much i love you (and your fics) ...?

KoP - idiocy is suffered by everyone except dr house

[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

highcastle wrote...
There's a difference in the societal pressures faced by members of western societies (i.e. conforming to gender roles, taking part in a materialistic culture, etc.) and being put in chains, having your mouth sewn closed, risking your tongue being cut out, and basically told you're not a person. That's not just conditioning at that point. It's slavery and abuse.

 

It's part of their culture.

And who are you to say if he's brainwashed or if he would've believe it all along? Slavery and abuse has comparisons to yes but being raised to be in one specific role, being permitted to do little else. You say this as though only the Saaerbas have a severe lack of freedom, it seems a common factor in the Qun. 

Gah it's so hard to argue about Qunari because we know so little about them. 

It's part of their culture so it's acceptable? Is binding women's feet so they're dependent on men acceptable because it's part of a real world culture? People throw out "culture" and "beliefs" like they're free passes. But when that culture is one of repression and hate, then it shouldn't be a valid defense any more. The Qunari chain and desecrate their mages. It is sick, and just because it's part of their culture, that doesn't make it any less sick. The one-role caste system is not what I'm talking about here. The dehumanization of mages is.