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[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

highcastle wrote...
In part of my studies, I've interviewed people who were brainwashed by cults. Would you say they have the right to kill themselves because they want to die when they're taken out of the cult? Is that acceptable? Is it really a choice?

 

Yes actually. Just like someone has the right to kill themselves yet for some reason my society says it's illegal.  As long as that action directly harms no one but themselves (or the only harm is simply that they themselves are dead). Go ahead. 

I do find it to be a choice. A choice that they don't make at full functionality but a choice nonetheless. 

I really can't understand that line of thinking. They. Are. Not. Choosing. Their cult leaders are choosing for them. And it hurts far more people than just that one person. Families break apart, tear themselves into pieces. This is not something you can just choose flippantly, not for these reasons. I'm all for right-to-die when it comes to certain terminal illness. But this? This is murder. Legally, too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...
and is it? the white man's burdan was making indians (or whomever) less than human. those people being murdered and raped for being who they are, are considered less than human in their culture.

Keep in mind that many will seek to take advantage of your claims. Europeans didnt' argue in terms of self-interest when they colonized Africa. They argued that they were there to free slaves. And yes, the Europeans were the first to legally abolish it.

[Sialater]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...
Yes we are.  But we have the freedom to question our conditioning.  Ketojan and most mages do not.

 

Most mages? I hope you mean most Qunari mages. That couldn't be further from the truth about Thedas mages (that aren't Saaerbas). 

Anyone in Kirkwall who questioned the status quo were Tranquilled.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
Except, in the end, Anders was acting alone. Anders doesn't even really align himself with Hawke at that moment.

But he does, all through the game, claim to be speaking on behalf of all mages and he intends to start a war that's Thedas-wide.  Else he could simply have blown up the Gallows.

Where all the mages live?

As SF said, the Kirkwall mages are already dead as it is.  Surely you don't think he was trying to save their lives by blowing up the Chantry, ensuring with 100% that the right of annullment would be carried out?  If Hawke tells him "the blood of these mages is on your hands," he answers "I know."

Well, if he kills them himself it makes it hard for them to fight back against Meredith's condemnation and be an inspiration to Circles all over Thedas, which I think was his best case scenario for them.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 09 juin 2011 - 07:14 .

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...
I really can't understand that line of thinking. They. Are. Not. Choosing. Their cult leaders are choosing for them. And it hurts far more people than just that one person. Families break apart, tear themselves into pieces. This is not something you can just choose flippantly, not for these reasons. I'm all for right-to-die when it comes to certain terminal illness. But this? This is murder. Legally, too.

 

And I can't understand yours. They are choosing in my view. 

As for hurting you're right I phrased that wrong. As long as the person choosing the action is taking the action only for themselves and it is their body they are choosing to do whatever to. It's fine to me. It's their body. Their life .No one else should have any claim on it. 

Unless those who joined the cults were kidnapped in the back of a truck to begin with? 

No to me it's not murder. Legally? Sure plenty of things are legal/illegal that I don't agree with. This would be one of them. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 07:18 .

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...
and is it? the white man's burdan was making indians (or whomever) less than human. those people being murdered and raped for being who they are, are considered less than human in their culture.

Keep in mind that many will seek to take advantage of your claims. Europeans didnt' argue in terms of self-interest when they colonized Africa. They argued that they were there to free slaves. And yes, the Europeans were the first to legally abolish it.

politicians. morals. never the twain shalt mix

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...
Yes we are.  But we have the freedom to question our conditioning.  Ketojan and most mages do not.

 

Most mages? I hope you mean most Qunari mages. That couldn't be further from the truth about Thedas mages (that aren't Saaerbas). 

Anyone in Kirkwall who questioned the status quo were Tranquilled.

Kirkwall isn't most mages. Not by a long shot. 

(And that isn't true either because you had a whole revolt lying in wake made of mages and templars). So...that's not true. 

Some in Kirkwall who questiond the status quo were Tranquiled. (Probably those who decided to be loud about it that weren't lucky enough to be Orsino. And Orsino himself renders that void.) 

[Sialater]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...
Yes we are.  But we have the freedom to question our conditioning.  Ketojan and most mages do not.

 

Most mages? I hope you mean most Qunari mages. That couldn't be further from the truth about Thedas mages (that aren't Saaerbas). 

Anyone in Kirkwall who questioned the status quo were Tranquilled.

Kirkwall isn't most mages. Not by a long shot. 

(And that isn't true either because you had a whole revolt lying in wake made of mages and templars). So...that's not true. 

Some in Kirkwall who questiond the status quo were Tranquiled. (Probably those who decided to be loud about it that weren't lucky enough to be Orsino. And Orsino himself renders that void.) 

Karl was hardly loud.

And we've already poked at the giant GAPING PLOT HOLE that is Grace.

Modifié par Sialater, 09 juin 2011 - 07:19 .

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...
Karl was hardly loud.

 

Karl =/= all mages. 

But you're right. Karl instead got caught contacting a known apostate. He was unlucky. 

It does help that the rite of tranquility is supposed to be illegal in those circumstances. So by it's very nature that wasn't common. Common in Kirkwall perhaps but not for most mages. 

Trying to use a exception (Kirkwall as a whole) to prove a point about most mages is worthess. It's like trying to use the Warden as an example of how free a mage can be. It's flawed. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 07:21 .

[highcastle]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nope, because when Anders is talking with Orsino, Justice assumes control and speaks in perfect unison with his host and Anders does not black out. Ergo: Justice / Vengeance is taking control. [/quote]

Wrong. They are speaking in unison. Together. They are of a single mind, a single purpose here. And they are both speaking. Justice is not overriding him. He is not pulling a Harbinger at this moment. What you're witnessing is a spirit and his host in perfect harmony for once.

[quote]
Furthermore, all the codices say that Anders is losign the fight against Vengeance.

On Friendship, I see Anders as willingly succumbing to Vengeance. While in rivalry, he tries to resist and fails. In either case, Vengeance is assuming control. [/quote]

You who loves to quote Gaider should also know that the codices should not be taken as fact. They are opinion.

That being said, I believe what the codices are implying is that Anders gives up his work with the mage underground after the Justice quest. This would not sit well with Justice. Thus, Anders likely feels increasing strain to both work for the freedom of mages and protect those he cares about at the same time.

Anders is not a puppet.

[quote]
Some one who is mentally stable and sober, and who has a will of his own. Who is not paranoid, obsessed, blinded by hatred, hypocritical. Those are the people who are qualified to speak in the name of mages. If they do not yet exist? Too bad. point is, I do not believe someone like him should do anything because they are not qualified to.

Ande he doens't remake anything. He starts a disaster and is too corwardly to see it through, instead opting to die.
I'll only give the mages who make something out of the mess he created, the credit of changing the world. [/quote]

Who's qualified to make that decision? We all have flaws. Every one of us. Have you studied revolutions before? American? Irish? Anything? The people who do something drastic, they're generally not saints. They're generally people who are pushed to the breaking, with frayed nerves and hot tempers and a cause they believe in more than anything else. Anders is paranoid. He's also legitimately being hunted by the templars and the Chantry. He's obsessed, but he needs to be. Something like this requires focus. He's hypocritical. Who isn't about some matters? Blind by hatred? Not really. He accepts Aveline despite having had a templar husband. He makes efforts to convince Sebastian with words and rhetoric rather than violence, even when Sebastian plots (in front of him) to turn him over to the templars.

We cannot argue whether Anders remakes anything or not because we haven't seen the outcome of the war yet. But yes, he is in large part responsible. And sometimes you need to break something apart just so you can put it back together into something stronger than it was (and hopefully something better).


[quote]
You don't think Anders is mentally stable? Fine, that's your interpretation. But that's a key word. Interpretation.
[/quote]

The codices are evideence enough. He is paranoid, depressed and losign control. That's not mental stability.

[/quote]

See my earlier point about the codices. And stop listing character flaws like they're the Holy Grail of his character. They're not. He's also determined, self-sacrificing, kind, dedicated to helping the less fortunate, compassionate, and devoted.

[kromify]

Sialater wrote...

Karl was hardly loud.

And we've already poked at the giant GAPING PLOT HOLE that is Grace.

grace had thrask and the other friendly templars on her side.

[Patchwork]

Bethany, Grace, Orsino and Alian should be grateful for their plot armour. Meredith was forcing tranquillity on the rest of the circle for minor things.

[kromify]

highcastle wrote...

Anders is paranoid. He's also legitimately being hunted by the templars and the Chantry.

heh heh.

but i do agree with you

[Sialater]

kromify wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Karl was hardly loud.

And we've already poked at the giant GAPING PLOT HOLE that is Grace.

grace had thrask and the other friendly templars on her side.

Thrask is hardly proof against anything.  Remember his daughter?  He couldn't even get her out of Kirkwall.

Grace is strong with the Plot Armor.

[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

highcastle wrote...
I really can't understand that line of thinking. They. Are. Not. Choosing. Their cult leaders are choosing for them. And it hurts far more people than just that one person. Families break apart, tear themselves into pieces. This is not something you can just choose flippantly, not for these reasons. I'm all for right-to-die when it comes to certain terminal illness. But this? This is murder. Legally, too.

 

And I can't understand yours. They are choosing in my view. 

As for hurting you're right I phrased that wrong. As long as the person choosing the action is taking the action only for themselves and it is their body they are choosing to do whatever to. It's fine to me. It's their body. Their life .No one else should have any claim on it. 

Unless those who joined the cults were kidnapped in the back of a truck to begin with? 

No to me it's not murder. Legally? Sure plenty of things are legal/illegal that I don't agree with. This would be one of them. 

The kidnapping is precisely what I'm talking about (should have clarified, sorry). I spoke with people who were abducted and/or coerced. And lots of them tried killing themselves because they were told they were not permitted to betray the cult leader. They'd rather die. 

Also, people should be free to do what they want and no one should have a claim to their body. The problem with brainwashing is that they're no longer the only ones with a claim on themselves. They gave it up to someone else, sometimes had it forcibly taken from them. And that's wrong.

So think of it like this: Ketojan would have been taken (kidnapped) from his home when his powers manifested. He would have been indoctrinated into this line of thinking, that he is not a person, he is an object. Thus, he does not have the mental faculties to make the choice to end his life. The Qun made it for him.

I'm all for free will. I actually support the right-to-die for people with terminal illnesses. My problem is when the suicide is not a result of free will, but of duress. Because then it's not a choice anymore. It's something that's been forced on them.

[kromify]

highcastle wrote...

He's also determined, self-sacrificing, kind, dedicated to helping the less fortunate, compassionate, and devoted.

unf   :wub:

[esper]

The letter from Thrask's daughter hinted that he had done well in hiding her until that point - I think she ran away on her own because she wanted to be a mage and free.

[kromify]

Sialater wrote...

Thrask is hardly proof against anything.  Remember his daughter?  He couldn't even get her out of Kirkwall.

Grace is strong with the Plot Armor.

i just love hearing thrask's architect voice.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
Wrong. They are speaking in unison. Together. They are of a single mind, a single purpose here. And they are both speaking. Justice is not overriding him. He is not pulling a Harbinger at this moment. What you're witnessing is a spirit and his host in perfect harmony for once.

On rivalry, that only makes sense if Vengeance took control.

Both friendship and rivlary has the codex say Anders is losing the struggle and losing control.

You who loves to quote Gaider should also know that the codices should not be taken as fact. They are opinion.

Nope, he was referring to codices with authors (obviously). This is a codex with no author. It's the game telling us.

Anders is not a puppet.

"Increasingly, his inner struggle
against the spirit Vengeance has boiled over into his dealings with the
rest of the world. It's clear he is losing this fight"

"Convinced that he was no better than
an abomination, Anders was determined to gain mastery over the spirit
inside him... or die trying. It is increasingly apparent that he is
losing this struggle."

Who's qualified to make that decision? We all have flaws. Every one of us.

Leaders, with a stable mind, a following, and a long term plan in mind.

Have you studied revolutions before? American? Irish? Anything?

More than you know. Trust me.

I can right now tell you about all the Revolutions I have studied. And I have primary sources right here if you want as well.

The people who do something drastic, they're generally not saints.

Not saying they should be saints.

Blind by hatred? Not really.

He wants Fenris to be taken back to slavery. For instance.

We cannot argue whether Anders remakes anything or not because we haven't seen the outcome of the war yet. But yes, he is in large part responsible. And sometimes you need to break something apart just so you can put it back together into something stronger than it was (and hopefully something better).

The outcome of the war will depend on those who fight it, not Anders.
And if you want to break something, you better have an idea on how to put it back together.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2011 - 07:31 .

[highcastle]

kromify wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Anders is paranoid. He's also legitimately being hunted by the templars and the Chantry.

heh heh.

but i do agree with you

I was tempted to say, "Just because you're not paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."

Seriously, though, I blame his paranoia on the solitary confinement. I interviewed so many people who suffered this after coming out of solitary. One man was put back into prison one week after release beause he stabbed a man in a convenience store. The guy brushed past him in line, and the ex-con automatically interpreted this as a threat. He acted on instinct. Honestly, Anders is in better shape than many think.

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...
The kidnapping is precisely what I'm talking about (should have clarified, sorry). I spoke with people who were abducted and/or coerced. And lots of them tried killing themselves because they were told they were not permitted to betray the cult leader. They'd rather die.

If they were coerced I feel they still made a choice. Albeit a bad one (or one that wasn't much of a choice like death or get in the van). If they were kidnapped then no I don't see that as a choice. 

Also, people should be free to do what they want and no one should have a claim to their body. The problem with brainwashing is that they're no longer the only ones with a claim on themselves. They gave it up to someone else, sometimes had it forcibly taken from them. And that's wrong.

And the question becomes how do you know if someone's brainwashed and if it's something they would've done regardless? (Or that you've simply brainwashed them yourself to feel their previous actions were wrong?) 

So think of it like this: Ketojan would have been taken (kidnapped) from his home when his powers manifested. He would have been indoctrinated into this line of thinking, that he is not a person, he is an object. Thus, he does not have the mental faculties to make the choice to end his life. The Qun made it for him.

Actually Ketojan would've been raised as a member of the Qun. It's highly likely once his powers manifested he knew what was expected of him and went of his own free will to the...whatever Saeerbas holders are called. He is not thrown into the back of a bus. I highly doubt the Qun works like that. (which is why more information is needed for this debate to really go anywhere). As for not having the mental facilities. I don't agree with that. He had enough power to choose to flee to the Qunari (or even the...Talvesoth) and throw himself at their mercy (they weren't that far). Instead he chooses to follow Peatrice(lord only knows why) and later Hawke. Instead of staying by Hawke's side and being lead he makes his own choice. 

I'm all for free will. I actually support the right-to-die for people with terminal illnesses. My problem is when the suicide is not a result of free will, but of duress. Because then it's not a choice anymore. It's something that's been forced on them.

 

Ketojan in my view killed himself of his own free will. It's not duress. (Not to mention choices made under duress are still choices to me. Bad choices, but still choices). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 07:33 .

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And if you want to break something, you better have an idea on how to put it back together.

i have no idea how to put anders back together - so i won't break him. friendship is the way to go! 

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

On rivalry, that only makes sense if Vengeance took control.

Perhaps. On friendship, it has a different meaning. I play friendship, it's generally the interpretation I'm giving here. Rivalry has no interest for me, so I can't speak authoritatively on this.

Both friendship and rivlary has the codex say Anders is losing the struggle and losing control.

Nope, he was referring to codices with authors (obviously). This is a codex with no author. It's the game telling us.

Gaider never said that definitively. And way to cherry pick my responses. I gave another interpretation here which I will not repeat. Just go back and read my former post.

"Increasingly, his inner struggle
against the spirit Vengeance has boiled over into his dealings with the
rest of the world. It's clear he is losing this fight"

"Convinced that he was no better than
an abomination, Anders was determined to gain mastery over the spirit
inside him... or die trying. It is increasingly apparent that he is
losing this struggle."

Alright, I guess I will repeat myself. Anders is trying to fight for the mages without hurting people he cares about or other mages. It's why he backed off from the mage underground. At the same time, Justice does not wish him to simply give up, to revert back to the selfish person he used to be. That's the struggle. It's a struggle for balance.

I can right now tell you about all the Revolutions I have studied. And I have primary sources right here if you want as well.

Go for it. History's not my best subject. I'm lit/criminology. The revolutions I've studied have all been populated with some...shall we say, interesting characters.

He wants Fenris to be taken back to slavery. For instance.

I wouldn't say he wants it so much as he supports it if Hawke wants it. And yes, he hates Fenris. Fenris also hates him. Is this is a good moment for Anders? No. It shows his flaws. I'm not saying the guy is a saint. I'd personally have a problem condemning even someone I hated, someone who spent all his time calling me trash and weak and a monster to slavery again. You won't catch me saying Anders is perfect by any means.

The outcome of the war will depend on those who fight it, not Anders.
And if you want to break something, you better have an idea on how to put it back together.

Oh, believe me. Society finds a way to knit together again. Like mending a broken bone, some things are organic and happen naturally. Even after the fall of Rome and the onset of the Dark Ages, somehow the western world carried on.

Modifié par highcastle, 09 juin 2011 - 07:43 .

[highcastle]

@Ryzaki: Thankfully the law in my country disagrees with you. To coerce somebody--the very definition of the word here--means to restrain or dominate by force, and to compel an act or choice. A choice made under compulsion is again not a choice. As to whether they would have chosen it of free mind and body...that's a morally gray subject. I'm not willing to bring it up here.

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...

@Ryzaki: Thankfully the law in my country disagrees with you. To coerce somebody--the very definition of the word here--means to restrain or dominate by force, and to compel an act or choice. A choice made under compulsion is again not a choice. As to whether they would have chosen it of free mind and body...that's a morally gray subject. I'm not willing to bring it up here.

 

/shrugs 

In my country coercion isn't simply restricted to force. 

And we disagree on what a choice is. As for morally grey that was my whole point. Ketojan isn't black and white to me it's grey. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 07:45 .