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[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
Gaider never said that definitively.

You need him to tell you than an authorless codex is not the same as a codex with an author?

"Increasingly, his inner struggle
against the spirit Vengeance has boiled over into his dealings with the
rest of the world. It's clear he is losing this fight"

"Convinced that he was no better than
an abomination, Anders was determined to gain mastery over the spirit
inside him... or die trying. It is increasingly apparent that he is
losing this struggle."

Alright, I guess I will repeat myself. Anders is trying to fight for the mages without hurting people he cares about or other mages. It's why he backed off from the mage underground. At the same time, Justice does not wish him to simply give up, to revert back to the selfish person he used to be. That's the struggle. It's a struggle for balance.

The codex do not really mention this and the second one pretty much refutes your interpretation.

But granted, there seems to be a substantial difference between friendship and rivalry and what he does with Elle. I think your interpretation, like you said, makes more sense on friendship and makes little sense on rivalry.

Go for it. History's not my best subject. I'm lit/criminology. The revolutions I've studied have all been populated with some...shall we say, interesting characters.

Which one you want to know about? The Abassid Revolution? The French Revolution? The Russian Revolution? The Chinese one?

Those are the four main ones I studied in great detail and I have most of the primary sources in my appt.

Yes, they had interesting characters. The revolution I deem the most succesful, the Abbassid Revolution, was directed by a political mastermind. That's the only kind of Revolution I'd trust.

I wouldn't say he wants it so much as he supports it if Hawke wants it. And yes, he hates Fenris. Fenris also hates him. Is this is a good moment for Anders? No. It shows his flaws. I'm not saying the guy is a saint. I'd personally have a problem condemning even someone I hated, someone who spent all his time calling me trash and weak and a monster to slavery again. You won't catch me saying Anders is perfect by any means.

That for me is being blinded by hatred, when you do not realize that you are condemning someone you hate to an injustice you are claimign to fight.

Oh, believe me. Society finds a way to knit together again. Like mending a broken bone, some things are organic and happen naturally. Even after the fall of Rome and the onset of the Dark Ages, somehow the western world carried on.

Sure, but I'll give credit to society. Not Anders.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2011 - 07:49 .

[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

highcastle wrote...

@Ryzaki: Thankfully the law in my country disagrees with you. To coerce somebody--the very definition of the word here--means to restrain or dominate by force, and to compel an act or choice. A choice made under compulsion is again not a choice. As to whether they would have chosen it of free mind and body...that's a morally gray subject. I'm not willing to bring it up here.

 

/shrugs 

In my country coercion isn't simply restricted to force. 

And we disagree on what a choice is. As for morally grey that was my whole point. Ketojan isn't black and white to me it's grey. 

There are many kinds of force. I highly suggest you read books by former cult members. It's not quite the same as speaking to these people face-to-face, but I think it might be enlightening. And that's the last I'll say on this subject.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

This is how I see Anders, and his actions.

A man is tortured his entire life, imprisoned, sees his friends raped and beaten. Sees mage after mage driven to suicide. Escapes, is recaptured, tortured. Escapes again. Finds one last hope of freedom in the Wardens... the freedom of having a pet, and some friends, and some limited autonomy in exchange for a lifetime of nightmares and an early death. Makes that deal, and then even that spectre of autonomy is taken from him. He loses his friends, his pet, is denied even that ghost of autonomy.

Utterly without hope, his last friend, a spirit of Justice, asks this question.

"What would you give to save a child from suffering what you have suffered? To fight to ensure that no child is taken from their family to be twisted and tormented into self-hate and suicide, denied love and hope?"

"I'd give anything. I'd give all that I am."

"Then let's come together. Let's do this work."

Basically, I think Anders made the decision to do whatever it takes back when he was a normal, sane, mortal human. At that point he didn't understand what "whatever it takes" means, didn't know what he would end up having to do. That's what he's fighting against when he's fighting Justice/Vengenace in Act 2 - fighting the realization that there is no other way. And I think it's unfair to equate an inability to ignore injustice with ordinary mental illness. It'd be like saying all the Wardens are mentally ill because they have Darkspawn nightmares, or that Batman is mentally ill because he's so obsessed with fighting crime.

Ok, Batman probably is mentally ill. Still, though! I'd trust a nice crazy Batman over a sane Strom Thurmond any day. You tell me one of those two people can decide the future of my country? I'm picking Batman every single time.

But we've been over this. I honestly believe there was no better chance, that what he did had a greater chance of preventing what befell him from befalling other kids in the future than pretty much anything else he or anyone could have done.

I know some disagree, but there's no way to prove that either way. And I respect the fact that he was willing to sacrifice all that he was - his humanity, personal morals, self-respect, hope for the future, hope for a life - to save future generations from suffering as he suffered. He burned himself up in an engine of freedom.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 juin 2011 - 07:51 .

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...
There are many kinds of force. I highly suggest you read books by former cult members. It's not quite the same as speaking to these people face-to-face, but I think it might be enlightening. And that's the last I'll say on this subject.

 

Where did I say there weren't many kinds of force? 
But ah well. *shrugs* 
 

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You need him to tell you than an authorless codex is not the same as a codex with an author?

I think taking anything at face value in this game is a mistake. Especially when certain codices can be interpreted metaphorically or symbolically. Again, I think in abstracts, whereas you seem to be very literal.

The codex do not really mention this and the second one pretty much refutes your interpretation.

But I granted, there seems to be a substantial difference between friendship and rivalry and what he does with Elle. I think your interpretation, like you said, makes more sense on friendship and makes little sense on rivalry.

See above point. See also the point I made about talking about the friendship path as I flat out detest the rivalry option. 

Which one you want to know about? The Abassid Revolution? The French Revolution? The Russian Revolution? The Chinese one?

Those are the four main ones I studied in great detail and I have most of the primary sources in my appt.

Yes, they had interesting characters. The revolution I deem the most succesful, the Abbassid Revolution, was directed by a political mastermind. That's the only kind of Revolution I'd trust.

Which one can be related to Anders? As in, the topic of this thread. See, I'm all for the games-are-art interpretation of the medium, and I believe the devs have intentionally or subconsciously incorporated real world themes and reflections of real events into the game. So if you think you can tie the Mage Revolution into one of these, go for it. As I said, history's not my best subject, and I'm reluctant to bring up points I don't have the knowledge to back up.

If all you want to say is that some people make better revolutionaries than Anders...well, duh. He's not a perfect human being. He's not a military strategist. He's a person who'se been victimized by a brutal institution, who witnessed its horrors first hand, and is now attempting to do something about it. Would you rather wait around for someone better? How long will it take? How many more kids will die? Mages made tranquil? When do you stop waiting and do something about it.

That for me is being blinded by hatred, when you do not realize that you are condemning someone you hate to an injustice you are claimign to fight.

Fair enough. In one instance, with one person, Anders is blinded by hatred. Congratulations, you've identified him as a member of the human race.

[kromify]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

 And I respect the fact that he was willing to sacrifice all that he was - his humanity, personal morals, self-respect, hope for the future, hope for a life - to save future generations from suffering as he suffered. He burned himself up in an engine of freedom.

he is very brave. this is pretty much why my hawke pounces on the man; he had no chance 

[highcastle]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

This is how I see Anders, and his actions.

A man is tortured his entire life, imprisoned, sees his friends raped and beaten. Sees mage after mage driven to suicide. Escapes, is recaptured, tortured. Escapes again. Finds one last hope of freedom in the Wardens... the freedom of having a pet, and some friends, and some limited autonomy in exchange for a lifetime of nightmares and an early death. Makes that deal, and then even that spectre of autonomy is taken from him. He loses his friends, his pet, is denied even that ghost of autonomy.

Utterly without hope, his last friend, a spirit of Justice, asks this question.

"What would you give to save a child from suffering what you have suffered? To fight to ensure that no child is taken from their family to be twisted and tormented into self-hate and suicide, denied love and hope?"

"I'd give anything. I'd give all that I am."

"Then let's come together. Let's do this work."

Basically, I think Anders made the decision to do whatever it takes back when he was a normal, sane, mortal human. At that point he didn't understand what "whatever it takes" means, didn't know what he would end up having to do. That's what he's fighting against when he's fighting Justice/Vengenace in Act 2 - fighting the realization that there is no other way. And I think it's unfair to equate an inability to ignore injustice with ordinary mental illness. It'd be like saying all the Wardens are mentally ill because they have Darkspawn nightmares, or that Batman is mentally ill because he's so obsessed with fighting crime.

Ok, Batman probably is mentally ill. Still, though! I'd trust a nice crazy Batman over a sane Strom Thurmond any day. You tell me one of those two people can decide the future of my country? I'm picking Batman every single time.

But we've been over this. I honestly believe there was no better chance, that what he did had a greater chance of preventing what befell him from befalling other kids in the future than pretty much anything else he or anyone could have done.

I know some disagree, but there's no way to prove that either way. And I respect the fact that he was willing to sacrifice all that he was - his humanity, personal morals, self-respect, hope for the future, hope for a life - to save future generations from suffering as he suffered. He burned himself up in an engine of freedom.

Now I need me some Anders-as-Batman fanart. Where's Yami? *lights bat signal*

On a serious note, I agree with just about everything here.

[kromify]

highcastle wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
That for me is being blinded by hatred, when you do not realize that you are condemning someone you hate to an injustice you are claimign to fight.

Fair enough. In one instance, with one person, Anders is blinded by hatred. Congratulations, you've identified him as a member of the human race.

but blinded by hatred is not the same as blind with hatred. cause and effect - i love it .
and both anders and fenris want to see the other being condemned to the injstice they fight

[Sialater]

highcastle wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

This is how I see Anders, and his actions.

A man is tortured his entire life, imprisoned, sees his friends raped and beaten. Sees mage after mage driven to suicide. Escapes, is recaptured, tortured. Escapes again. Finds one last hope of freedom in the Wardens... the freedom of having a pet, and some friends, and some limited autonomy in exchange for a lifetime of nightmares and an early death. Makes that deal, and then even that spectre of autonomy is taken from him. He loses his friends, his pet, is denied even that ghost of autonomy.

Utterly without hope, his last friend, a spirit of Justice, asks this question.

"What would you give to save a child from suffering what you have suffered? To fight to ensure that no child is taken from their family to be twisted and tormented into self-hate and suicide, denied love and hope?"

"I'd give anything. I'd give all that I am."

"Then let's come together. Let's do this work."

Basically, I think Anders made the decision to do whatever it takes back when he was a normal, sane, mortal human. At that point he didn't understand what "whatever it takes" means, didn't know what he would end up having to do. That's what he's fighting against when he's fighting Justice/Vengenace in Act 2 - fighting the realization that there is no other way. And I think it's unfair to equate an inability to ignore injustice with ordinary mental illness. It'd be like saying all the Wardens are mentally ill because they have Darkspawn nightmares, or that Batman is mentally ill because he's so obsessed with fighting crime.

Ok, Batman probably is mentally ill. Still, though! I'd trust a nice crazy Batman over a sane Strom Thurmond any day. You tell me one of those two people can decide the future of my country? I'm picking Batman every single time.

But we've been over this. I honestly believe there was no better chance, that what he did had a greater chance of preventing what befell him from befalling other kids in the future than pretty much anything else he or anyone could have done.

I know some disagree, but there's no way to prove that either way. And I respect the fact that he was willing to sacrifice all that he was - his humanity, personal morals, self-respect, hope for the future, hope for a life - to save future generations from suffering as he suffered. He burned himself up in an engine of freedom.

Now I need me some Anders-as-Batman fanart. Where's Yami? *lights bat signal*

On a serious note, I agree with just about everything here.

Careful... do that any more and people will want him to be a sniper rather than a mage...

[Jean]

this is still going on huh. interesting.

[kromify]

highcastle wrote...

Now I need me some Anders-as-Batman fanart. Where's Yami? *lights bat signal*

On a serious note, I agree with just about everything here.

i bet it looks like malcolms honor  

[highcastle]

Sialater wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Now I need me some Anders-as-Batman fanart. Where's Yami? *lights bat signal*

On a serious note, I agree with just about everything here.

Careful... do that any more and people will want him to be a sniper rather than a mage...

Ok, I read that first as "stripper" rather than "sniper" and went momentarily to my happy place.

[kromify]

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Now I need me some Anders-as-Batman fanart. Where's Yami? *lights bat signal*

On a serious note, I agree with just about everything here.

Careful... do that any more and people will want him to be a sniper rather than a mage...

Ok, I read that first as "stripper" rather than "sniper" and went momentarily to my happy place.

we already want that...

[Jean]

Anders has no crotch

Limites places to shove money down.

[Amondra]

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Now I need me some Anders-as-Batman fanart. Where's Yami? *lights bat signal*

On a serious note, I agree with just about everything here.

Careful... do that any more and people will want him to be a sniper rather than a mage...

Ok, I read that first as "stripper" rather than "sniper" and went momentarily to my happy place.

I see Anders more of a Punisher like character >_>

[Sialater]

Batteries wrote...

Anders has no crotch

Limites places to shove money down.

DOZENS of Deviant Artists would like to disagree with you.

And prove it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
Which one can be related to Anders? As in, the topic of this thread. See, I'm all for the games-are-art interpretation of the medium, and I believe the devs have intentionally or subconsciously incorporated real world themes and reflections of real events into the game. So if you think you can tie the Mage Revolution into one of these, go for it. As I said, history's not my best subject, and I'm reluctant to bring up points I don't have the knowledge to back up.

None of them, as I believe each Revolution ends up becoming its own creature and the writing in DA2 was not nearly good enough to be compared to these examples directly. You were the one to ask me if I know about revolutions. 

What I was saying is what kind of revolution I would have preferred.

If all you want to say is that some people make better revolutionaries than Anders...well, duh. He's not a perfect human being. He's not a military strategist. Would you rather wait around for someone better? How long will it take? How many more kids will die? Mages made tranquil? When do you stop waiting and do something about it.

Yes, I'd rather wait and work subtly to gain advantages and allies.
You don't have to blow up buildings to do something about it.

Patience is part of wisdom. Sometimes, not doing anything drastic and waiting for the right moment is wisdom.
People are going to die either way, might make their death mean something.

Fair enough. In one instance, with one person, Anders is blinded by hatred. Congratulations, you've identified him as a member of the human race.

Not the kind of leader mages need.
Add to that being impressed by the baroness. Telling Leliana that the dangers of magic only apply to people like her...etc . In his paraoia, he is looking at the world as "us" vs "them".

[kromify]

Batteries wrote...

Anders has no crotch

Limites places to shove money down.

even less when we take his multitude of layers of clothing off

Modifié par kromify, 09 juin 2011 - 08:10 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

I come here seeking answers... and i am discontent atm...
SPOILERS:


I just finished a game (patch 1.03)
With full rivalry and full romance with anders... and i sided with the templars and had him stay by my side (patch 1.03 allows unlocks this). And i had the kiss before orsino battle...

Problem is... Varric doesn't mention this in the epilogue.
(Lack of "...all except Anders") and i got crowned leader of kirkwall instead - I never asked this >=(

I'm mainly asking to see if anyone else here has also had this problem =(
And wether this is actually a problem or not.

[Jean]

Sialater wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Anders has no crotch

Limites places to shove money down.

DOZENS of Deviant Artists would like to disagree with you.

And prove it.

[Ryzaki]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

I come here seeking answers... and i am discontent atm...
SPOILERS:


I just finished a game (patch 1.03)
With full rivalry and full romance with anders... and i sided with the templars and had him stay by my side (patch 1.03 allows unlocks this). And i had the kiss before orsino battle...

Problem is... Varric doesn't mention this in the epilogue.
(Lack of "...all except Anders") and i got crowned leader of kirkwall instead - I never asked this >=(

I'm mainly asking to see if anyone else here has also had this problem =(
And wether this is actually a problem or not.

I'm not sure.

Before the patch (when you forced it) it said all except Anders. Probably a bug. Not like DA2 lacks those. Now itdoesn't work. But with al the DA2 bugs there's a goodchance that's exactly what it is. (Hello dead anders stalking me. ).

I'll probably report it in the next patch thread just to be sure it's not a bug.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 08:18 .

[Jean]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

With full rivalry and full romance with anders... and i sided with the templars and had him stay by my side (patch 1.03 allows unlocks this). And i had the kiss before orsino battle...

Problem is... Varric doesn't mention this in the epilogue.
(Lack of "...all except Anders") and i got crowned leader of kirkwall instead - I never asked this >=(

I'm mainly asking to see if anyone else here has also had this problem =(
And wether this is actually a problem or not.

It's not a problem.

He's (most likely) dead.

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, I'd rather wait and work subtly to gain advantages and allies.
You don't have to blow up buildings to do something about it.

Patience is part of wisdom. Sometimes, not doing anything drastic and waiting for the right moment is wisdom.
People are going to die either way, might make their death mean something.


Not the kind of leader mages need.
Add to that being impressed by the baroness. Telling Leliana that the dangers of magic only apply to people like her...etc . In his paraoia, he is looking at the world as "us" vs "them".

patience isn't the better part of vengeance. if there hasn't been a right moment in 1000 years why would there be one now?

he wasn't aspiring to be a leader, only a catalyst. he fully expected to die.

anders's world has been mages v chantry and templars for a long time. he doen't despise all mundanes though - he isn't magneto. he is what the chantry made him

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

None of them, as I believe each Revolution ends up becoming its own creature and the writing in DA2 was not nearly good enough to be compared to these examples directly. You were the one to ask me if I know about revolutions. 

What I was saying is what kind of revolution I would have preferred.

Okay...so you don't like DA2, you don't like Anders...why are you here?

You know what....I'm bowing out of this one. I think all you want to do at this point is describe the game you'd rather have played rather than debate the motivation of a character in the game you did play. And this is not the purpose of this thread. If you want to discuss who should have started the mage revolution rather than Anders, perhaps you should start your own thread.

At this point, we're not even debating the character anymore, just hypothetical scenarios irrelevent to the game and Anders. So to get this back on topic....gay mage love, everybody.



And Noah would like to testify that Anders does in fact have a crotch. The hand not in the picture is currently grabbing it inappropriately.

[kromify]

Batteries wrote...

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

With full rivalry and full romance with anders... and i sided with the templars and had him stay by my side (patch 1.03 allows unlocks this). And i had the kiss before orsino battle...

Problem is... Varric doesn't mention this in the epilogue.
(Lack of "...all except Anders") and i got crowned leader of kirkwall instead - I never asked this >=(

I'm mainly asking to see if anyone else here has also had this problem =(
And wether this is actually a problem or not.

It's not a problem.

He's (most likely) dead.

yup