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[Jean]

highcastle wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

None of them, as I believe each Revolution ends up becoming its own creature and the writing in DA2 was not nearly good enough to be compared to these examples directly. You were the one to ask me if I know about revolutions. 

What I was saying is what kind of revolution I would have preferred.

Okay...so you don't like DA2, you don't like Anders...why are you here?

You know what....I'm bowing out of this one. I think all you want to do at this point is describe the game you'd rather have played rather than debate the motivation of a character in the game you did play. And this is not the purpose of this thread. If you want to discuss who should have started the mage revolution rather than Anders, perhaps you should start your own thread.

At this point, we're not even debating the character anymore, just hypothetical scenarios irrelevent to the game and Anders. So to get this back on topic....gay mage love, everybody.

This is a place to discuss Anders in every way form and position/s/ possible, happy times or not.

But it is also true that eventually I did stop reading all those walls of texts some ways back so I don't know what's being debated now.

[kromify]

highcastle wrote...
So to get this back on topic....gay mage love, everybody.



And Noah would like to testify that Anders does in fact have a crotch. The hand not in the picture is currently grabbing it inappropriately.

and much as i love you, every moment you are here you are not writing the next chapter. so SHOOO! <3

[Reflection Muse]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

This is how I see Anders, and his actions.

A man is tortured his entire life, imprisoned, sees his friends raped and beaten. Sees mage after mage driven to suicide. Escapes, is recaptured, tortured. Escapes again. Finds one last hope of freedom in the Wardens... the freedom of having a pet, and some friends, and some limited autonomy in exchange for a lifetime of nightmares and an early death. Makes that deal, and then even that spectre of autonomy is taken from him. He loses his friends, his pet, is denied even that ghost of autonomy.

Utterly without hope, his last friend, a spirit of Justice, asks this question.

"What would you give to save a child from suffering what you have suffered? To fight to ensure that no child is taken from their family to be twisted and tormented into self-hate and suicide, denied love and hope?"

"I'd give anything. I'd give all that I am."

"Then let's come together. Let's do this work."

Basically, I think Anders made the decision to do whatever it takes back when he was a normal, sane, mortal human. At that point he didn't understand what "whatever it takes" means, didn't know what he would end up having to do. That's what he's fighting against when he's fighting Justice/Vengenace in Act 2 - fighting the realization that there is no other way. And I think it's unfair to equate an inability to ignore injustice with ordinary mental illness. It'd be like saying all the Wardens are mentally ill because they have Darkspawn nightmares, or that Batman is mentally ill because he's so obsessed with fighting crime.

Ok, Batman probably is mentally ill. Still, though! I'd trust a nice crazy Batman over a sane Strom Thurmond any day. You tell me one of those two people can decide the future of my country? I'm picking Batman every single time.

But we've been over this. I honestly believe there was no better chance, that what he did had a greater chance of preventing what befell him from befalling other kids in the future than pretty much anything else he or anyone could have done.

I know some disagree, but there's no way to prove that either way. And I respect the fact that he was willing to sacrifice all that he was - his humanity, personal morals, self-respect, hope for the future, hope for a life - to save future generations from suffering as he suffered. He burned himself up in an engine of freedom.

Yes, yes, yes, and so beautifully put. Thank you. (I find myself always agreeing with you.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...
. if there hasn't been a right moment in 1000 years why would there be one now?

Because of a shift in the balance of power that is unprecendented and because of an unprecendented event in Kirkwall. I believe Kirkwall was an opportunity, but an opportunity to do something much bigger than blowing up a Chantry.

he wasn't aspiring to be a leader, only a catalyst. he fully expected to die.

And I don't believe mages were ready for a catalyst or as ready as they could be, but we'll see.

[Sialater]

Considering there's already part 3 planned, I'm pretty sure we can't judge his ultimate actions yet in any event.

[Sialater]

Reflection Muse wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

This is how I see Anders, and his actions.

A man is tortured his entire life, imprisoned, sees his friends raped and beaten. Sees mage after mage driven to suicide. Escapes, is recaptured, tortured. Escapes again. Finds one last hope of freedom in the Wardens... the freedom of having a pet, and some friends, and some limited autonomy in exchange for a lifetime of nightmares and an early death. Makes that deal, and then even that spectre of autonomy is taken from him. He loses his friends, his pet, is denied even that ghost of autonomy.

Utterly without hope, his last friend, a spirit of Justice, asks this question.

"What would you give to save a child from suffering what you have suffered? To fight to ensure that no child is taken from their family to be twisted and tormented into self-hate and suicide, denied love and hope?"

"I'd give anything. I'd give all that I am."

"Then let's come together. Let's do this work."

Basically, I think Anders made the decision to do whatever it takes back when he was a normal, sane, mortal human. At that point he didn't understand what "whatever it takes" means, didn't know what he would end up having to do. That's what he's fighting against when he's fighting Justice/Vengenace in Act 2 - fighting the realization that there is no other way. And I think it's unfair to equate an inability to ignore injustice with ordinary mental illness. It'd be like saying all the Wardens are mentally ill because they have Darkspawn nightmares, or that Batman is mentally ill because he's so obsessed with fighting crime.

Ok, Batman probably is mentally ill. Still, though! I'd trust a nice crazy Batman over a sane Strom Thurmond any day. You tell me one of those two people can decide the future of my country? I'm picking Batman every single time.

But we've been over this. I honestly believe there was no better chance, that what he did had a greater chance of preventing what befell him from befalling other kids in the future than pretty much anything else he or anyone could have done.

I know some disagree, but there's no way to prove that either way. And I respect the fact that he was willing to sacrifice all that he was - his humanity, personal morals, self-respect, hope for the future, hope for a life - to save future generations from suffering as he suffered. He burned himself up in an engine of freedom.

Yes, yes, yes, and so beautifully put. Thank you. (I find myself always agreeing with you.)

Me, too. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
Okay...so you don't like DA2, you don't like Anders...why are you here?

Just to clarify the one point I'll bother addressing, Ander is my 3rd favorite companion in DA2 and the only thing I found redeeming about Act 3.

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...
. if there hasn't been a right moment in 1000 years why would there be one now?

Because of a shift in the balance of power that is unprecendented and because of an unprecendented event in Kirkwall. I believe Kirkwall was an opportunity, but an opportunity to do something much bigger than blowing up a Chantry.

he wasn't aspiring to be a leader, only a catalyst. he fully expected to die.

And I don't believe mages were ready for a catalyst or as ready as they could be, but we'll see.

Kirkwall was an opportunity that no one else took advantage of.

and who is ever ready for change? we like our little ruts, thank you very much

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sialater wrote...

Considering there's already part 3 planned, I'm pretty sure we can't judge his ultimate actions yet in any event.

Again, whatever happens, will depend on those brave enough to fight the war. Not him.

So even if the revolution ends up with the best possible outcome, I will give credit to those who worked for it. Not Anders. At all.

[Sialater]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

highcastle wrote...
Okay...so you don't like DA2, you don't like Anders...why are you here?

Just to clarify the one point I'll bother addressing, Ander is my 3rd favorite companion in DA2 and the only thing I found redeeming about Act 3.

And I see no reason for you to stop debating with us. 

Just... excuse us if we have to get silly every now and again.

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...

Considering there's already part 3 planned, I'm pretty sure we can't judge his ultimate actions yet in any event.

 

I'm really hoping we're not forced on a side to begin with. And can choose which side to push towards victory (even if a Eldtrich abomination/archedemon turns up at the last minute to completely screw it over). 

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...
Kirkwall was an opportunity that no one else took advantage of.

Because Hawke is an idiot yes.
What I am syaing is that Anders, where he mentally capable, could have tried to do something else. He can't, because he is metnally unstable. Which is why he shouldnt' have done anything.

and who is ever ready for change? we like our little ruts, thank you very much

Compeltely ready for change? No one is completly ready.
But there are scenarios where you have better chances at winning and building a future, thanks to planning, allies and the like. And there are scenarios where you are rushing in blindly.

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Again, whatever happens, will depend on those brave enough to fight the war. Not him.

So even if the revolution ends up with the best possible outcome, I will give credit to those who worked for it. Not Anders. At all.

true. but hawke will. because she wuvs him  

[Sialater]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Considering there's already part 3 planned, I'm pretty sure we can't judge his ultimate actions yet in any event.

Again, whatever happens, will depend on those brave enough to fight the war. Not him.

So even if the revolution ends up with the best possible outcome, I will give credit to those who worked for it. Not Anders. At all.

No one is giving Anders any credit.  Not even the people who live in his world.

[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Considering there's already part 3 planned, I'm pretty sure we can't judge his ultimate actions yet in any event.

 

I'm really hoping we're not forced on a side to begin with. And can choose which side to push towards victory (even if a Eldtrich abomination/archedemon turns up at the last minute to completely screw it over). 

Agreed. Someone brought up the possibility of playing as a Chantry Seeker, and I immediately balked. First, I don't want to support the Chantry. Second, how will I be a mage? Plus, if I can't be Hawke in the next game, I at least want to dedicate myself to his and Anders' cause, and run around Thedas bestowing kittens on people who are down on their luck.

BLAM! "You just got kitten-ed!" It'd be the fluffiest, fuzziest revolution ever.

And okay, because kromify told me to, I guess I better get Chapter 11 up soon. :innocent:

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because Hawke is an idiot yes.

Hawke is defined by the player. If your Hawke was an idiot, that doesn't mean mine was. 

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Compeltely ready for change? No one is completly ready.
But there are scenarios where you have better chances at winning and building a future, thanks to planning, allies and the like. And there are scenarios where you are rushing in blindly.

everyone here on the anders thread acknowledges that he is not the best strategiser. the point is that no one else was prepared to strategise. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sialater wrote...
No one is giving Anders any credit.  Not even the people who live in his world.

I think some here are.

Not saying they are wrong. Just expressing my opinion that I reject giving him any credit.

[kromify]

highcastle wrote...
And okay, because kromify told me to, I guess I better get Chapter 11 up soon. :innocent:

MOAR!

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sialater wrote...
No one is giving Anders any credit.  Not even the people who live in his world.

I think some here are.

Not saying they are wrong. Just expressing my opinion that I reject giving him any credit.

we give him credit for starting the war. not for winning it. (or losing but that won't happen lalalala)

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...
Agreed. Someone brought up the possibility of playing as a Chantry Seeker, and I immediately balked. First, I don't want to support the Chantry. Second, how will I be a mage? Plus, if I can't be Hawke in the next game, I at least want to dedicate myself to his and Anders' cause, and run around Thedas bestowing kittens on people who are down on their luck.

BLAM! "You just got kitten-ed!" It'd be the fluffiest, fuzziest revolution ever.

And okay, because kromify told me to, I guess I better get Chapter 11 up soon. :innocent:

 

Ugh if I'm Hawke in the next game...god no. Just...no. I'd be happy never to see Hawke again. 

And I can't wait to play the oppressive state killing all the traitors and being a domineering and powerful boss.  While still giving kittens to the poor little children because I have a heart of gold.  

It'll be awesome.

Congrats. I know how hard it is to write good fanfics. For some reason it's always the bleh stuff that gets updated really quickly (at least in the HP fandom). Good writers tend to take forever.  

[Amondra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...
Kirkwall was an opportunity that no one else took advantage of.

Because Hawke is an idiot yes.
What I am syaing is that Anders, where he mentally capable, could have tried to do something else. He can't, because he is metnally unstable. Which is why he shouldnt' have done anything.

and who is ever ready for change? we like our little ruts, thank you very much

Compeltely ready for change? No one is completly ready.
But there are scenarios where you have better chances at winning and building a future, thanks to planning, allies and the like. And there are scenarios where you are rushing in blindly.

I don't want to get into any of this but I will say.  He shouldn't but did, yes he is unstable and even people who are aware of their state are known to act out despite what they may think of it.  Their minds will justify it or tell them there is nothing else left.  I get you think it is because of this he shouldn't have but he did, no changing it now, it has already happened.

Fear,on top of not being the most sound will make you things you thought you could never do.  Fear alone can do that to a person.

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...
everyone here on the anders thread acknowledges that he is not the best strategiser. the point is that no one else was prepared to strategise. 

As such, no one should have done anything imo. The world is not going to end. Mages are not under an imminent threat of extinction.

If the time is not right, or if you do not have the people necessary, then I would not risk passing the point of no return. I would only do so if I felt I had a chance of winning and not only that, but be able to transition to building a different system. In otherword, I wouldn't rush blindly.

The problem is, Anders is fully accepting of the idea that mages being eradicated is better than the life they are leading now, so I do not think he thought of victory or change that much. A premise I reject.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2011 - 08:43 .

[Sialater]

Ryzaki wrote...

highcastle wrote...
Agreed. Someone brought up the possibility of playing as a Chantry Seeker, and I immediately balked. First, I don't want to support the Chantry. Second, how will I be a mage? Plus, if I can't be Hawke in the next game, I at least want to dedicate myself to his and Anders' cause, and run around Thedas bestowing kittens on people who are down on their luck.

BLAM! "You just got kitten-ed!" It'd be the fluffiest, fuzziest revolution ever.

And okay, because kromify told me to, I guess I better get Chapter 11 up soon. :innocent:

 

Ugh if I'm Hawke in the next game...god no. Just...no. I'd be happy never to see Hawke again. 

And I can't wait to play the oppressive state killing all the traitors and being a domineering and powerful boss.  While still giving kittens to the poor little children because I have a heart of gold.  

It'll be awesome.

Congrats. I know how hard it is to write good fanfics. For some reason it's always the bleh stuff that gets updated really quickly (at least in the HP fandom). Good writers tend to take forever.  

Hey, perfection takes time.  :innocent: