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[GailRana]

Ryzaki wrote...

*snip*

Anders. I do wonder if Justice is gonna assume direct control of his body if you killed him. 

They could just have Justice take over Ander's body completely, alive or dead. that would streamline the story options if they wanted to keep him on in another game. then if you kept him alive maybe you'd get moments with him and Hawke where she could reach the old anders only to have him fade back into justice… I just almost made my self cry with that thought. poor hawke and anders


TOP EDIT:
cheering myself up with a pic of our raggedy doctor apostate:

Modifié par GailRana, 10 juin 2011 - 12:40 .

[Hill-Hurwitz]

GailRana wrote...

hm… as a spirit Justice would have no real concept of running out of time for fulfilling his purpose. Being put in anders body, who as a living human knows time runs out eventually, would be an hard emotion to be merged with. I wonder if that's part of the reason Justice has this need for urgency in their actions

*nods* Act 2 Visit Anders quest: Rather than outright flirting, there's a diplomatic option that my canon Hawke always takes now - "Is that making it harder for you... with Justice?" Anders' reply is how that, in the Fade, there's no sense of time, and how Justice doesn't know how to sit idle.

The Fade is a realm of dreams and magic, of rock-hard ideals in a flucuating sea of emotions and landscapes, where ages can pass in the flicker of a second. To come from that experience to a world where time is incredibly valuable would be quite difficult to reconcile. Suffice to say, this is where my Hawke got onboard for the FREE HUGS for Justice campaign.

[Ryzaki]

GailRana wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*snip*

Anders. I do wonder if Justice is gonna assume direct control of his body if you killed him. 

They could just have Justice take over Ander's body completely, alive or dead. that would streamline the story options if they wanted to keep him on in another game. then if you kept him alive maybe you'd get moments with him and Hawke where she could reach the old anders only to have him fade back into justice… I just almost made my self cry with that thought. poor hawke and anders

 

That does sound like the most resource friendly way of finishing Anders. Wouldn't have to havea budget having a bunch of the same lines be recorded by two different voice actors too. 

[GailRana]

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

GailRana wrote...

hm… as a spirit Justice would have no real concept of running out of time for fulfilling his purpose. Being put in anders body, who as a living human knows time runs out eventually, would be an hard emotion to be merged with. I wonder if that's part of the reason Justice has this need for urgency in their actions

*nods* Act 2 Visit Anders quest: Rather than outright flirting, there's a diplomatic option that my canon Hawke always takes now - "Is that making it harder for you... with Justice?" Anders' reply is how that, in the Fade, there's no sense of time, and how Justice doesn't know how to sit idle.

The Fade is a realm of dreams and magic, of rock-hard ideals in a flucuating sea of emotions and landscapes, where ages can pass in the flicker of a second. To come from that experience to a world where time is incredibly valuable would be quite difficult to reconcile. Suffice to say, this is where my Hawke got onboard for the FREE HUGS for Justice campaign.

oh, now that you mention it i think i do remember that line.  I'll have to go look it up and check.

and i'll gladly join the Free Hugs for Justice dampaign!

since we are on the topic, did we ever figure out for sure who's idea the anders/justice merge was? Ander's wiki in the game seems to indicate it was his idea and justice went along with it, but i've heard others argue that it was justices idea and use it as proof that Justice had turned demon before the merge.

[ipgd]

GailRana wrote...

since we are on the topic, did we ever figure out for sure who's idea the anders/justice merge was? Ander's wiki in the game seems to indicate it was his idea and justice went along with it, but i've heard others argue that it was justices idea and use it as proof that Justice had turned demon before the merge.

It was Nate's idea.

[GailRana]

Ryzaki wrote...

GailRana wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*snip*

Anders. I do wonder if Justice is gonna assume direct control of his body if you killed him. 

They could just have Justice take over Ander's body completely, alive or dead. that would streamline the story options if they wanted to keep him on in another game. then if you kept him alive maybe you'd get moments with him and Hawke where she could reach the old anders only to have him fade back into justice… I just almost made my self cry with that thought. poor hawke and anders

 

That does sound like the most resource friendly way of finishing Anders. Wouldn't have to havea budget having a bunch of the same lines be recorded by two different voice actors too. 

Sadly, i have a feeling that if they bring anders back, that will be how it happens... i mean, i'm all for hanging with Justice again but i want my raggedy doctor Apostate zombie free!

[GailRana]

ipgd wrote...

GailRana wrote...

since we are on the topic, did we ever figure out for sure who's idea the anders/justice merge was? Ander's wiki in the game seems to indicate it was his idea and justice went along with it, but i've heard others argue that it was justices idea and use it as proof that Justice had turned demon before the merge.

It was Nate's idea.

it's a good thing the game glitched and Nate never showed up in DA2 because i would have had a few strong words for that fellow. and by "fellow" i mean fool, and by "words" i mean lightning

[Hill-Hurwitz]

GailRana wrote...

since we are on the topic, did we ever figure out for sure who's idea the anders/justice merge was? Ander's wiki in the game seems to indicate it was his idea and justice went along with it, but i've heard others argue that it was justices idea and use it as proof that Justice had turned demon before the merge.

I think it's left deliberately obscure. Either one of them could have proposed it formally, based on their banters in DA:A. Besides, we all know who the true culprit is - Nathaniel Howe.

Edit: ipgd beat me to the punchline! XD

Modifié par Hill-Hurwitz, 10 juin 2011 - 12:52 .

[GailRana]

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

GailRana wrote...

since we are on the topic, did we ever figure out for sure who's idea the anders/justice merge was? Ander's wiki in the game seems to indicate it was his idea and justice went along with it, but i've heard others argue that it was justices idea and use it as proof that Justice had turned demon before the merge.

I think it's left deliberately obscure. Either one of them could have proposed it formally, based on their banters in DA:A. Besides, we all know who the true culprit is - Nathaniel Howe.

ooh! Found the codex i was talking about:

"Infused with Justice's fervor, Anders offered to merge with the spirit
in the name of mage freedom, starting them both down a dangerous path
that turned the purity of Justice into the unthinking hatred of
Vengeance."


but yeah. it's still totally Nate's fault.

Modifié par GailRana, 10 juin 2011 - 12:54 .

[Sialater]

Nate has some, uh... penance to do.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

GailRana wrote...

since we are on the topic, did we ever figure out for sure who's idea the anders/justice merge was? Ander's wiki in the game seems to indicate it was his idea and justice went along with it, but i've heard others argue that it was justices idea and use it as proof that Justice had turned demon before the merge.

I think it's left deliberately obscure. Either one of them could have proposed it formally, based on their banters in DA:A. Besides, we all know who the true culprit is - Nathaniel Howe.

Edit: ipgd beat me to the punchline! XD

I have a lot of problems with the whole "spirit/demon" thing.

Well ok, I mainly have one problem. Anyone here ever read Good Omens? I love Crowley. Sauntered vaguely downwards eh? Sounds like a lot of the boys I like in literature and games.

If spirits can become demons, can demons be cleansed back into spirits? What would you call a spirit who is halfway through his transition? There is no way that I would call Vengeance a full-fledged demon, but it's convenient to call him that, because any spirit who is remotely corrupted must be a demon. And so forth.

I consider Vengeance to be a new kind of entity. And I consider JAnders to be something else entirely. I think that the word Abomination is too pejorative by far. Of course I'm always obsessed with edge-cases, exceptions, and outliers. I may be making more of this than there is to make.

[Sialater]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

GailRana wrote...

since we are on the topic, did we ever figure out for sure who's idea the anders/justice merge was? Ander's wiki in the game seems to indicate it was his idea and justice went along with it, but i've heard others argue that it was justices idea and use it as proof that Justice had turned demon before the merge.

I think it's left deliberately obscure. Either one of them could have proposed it formally, based on their banters in DA:A. Besides, we all know who the true culprit is - Nathaniel Howe.

Edit: ipgd beat me to the punchline! XD

I have a lot of problems with the whole "spirit/demon" thing.

Well ok, I mainly have one problem. Anyone here ever read Good Omens? I love Crowley. Sauntered vaguely downwards eh? Sounds like a lot of the boys I like in literature and games.

If spirits can become demons, can demons be cleansed back into spirits? What would you call a spirit who is halfway through his transition? There is no way that I would call Vengeance a full-fledged demon, but it's convenient to call him that, because any spirit who is remotely corrupted must be a demon. And so forth.

I consider Vengeance to be a new kind of entity. And I consider JAnders to be something else entirely. I think that the word Abomination is too pejorative by far. Of course I'm always obsessed with edge-cases, exceptions, and outliers. I may be making more of this than there is to make.

Nope.  I've wondered the same thing.  

[GailRana]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

GailRana wrote...

since we are on the topic, did we ever figure out for sure who's idea the anders/justice merge was? Ander's wiki in the game seems to indicate it was his idea and justice went along with it, but i've heard others argue that it was justices idea and use it as proof that Justice had turned demon before the merge.

I think it's left deliberately obscure. Either one of them could have proposed it formally, based on their banters in DA:A. Besides, we all know who the true culprit is - Nathaniel Howe.

Edit: ipgd beat me to the punchline! XD

I have a lot of problems with the whole "spirit/demon" thing.

Well ok, I mainly have one problem. Anyone here ever read Good Omens? I love Crowley. Sauntered vaguely downwards eh? Sounds like a lot of the boys I like in literature and games.

If spirits can become demons, can demons be cleansed back into spirits? What would you call a spirit who is halfway through his transition? There is no way that I would call Vengeance a full-fledged demon, but it's convenient to call him that, because any spirit who is remotely corrupted must be a demon. And so forth.

I consider Vengeance to be a new kind of entity. And I consider JAnders to be something else entirely. I think that the word Abomination is too pejorative by far. Of course I'm always obsessed with edge-cases, exceptions, and outliers. I may be making more of this than there is to make.

no worries, i by no means think Justice is a demon now. our stint with him in the fade tells us that much.

I like the idea of Vengeance as an entity that's neither Demon or Spirit. it is it's own classification so it can't be related to in the normal ways that people in the DA world would treat spirits/demons. Atleast that's how my Hawke and I tended to see it.

[Hill-Hurwitz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If spirits can become demons, can demons be cleansed back into spirits? What would you call a spirit who is halfway through his transition? There is no way that I would call Vengeance a full-fledged demon, but it's convenient to call him that, because any spirit who is remotely corrupted must be a demon. And so forth.

I consider Vengeance to be a new kind of entity. And I consider JAnders to be something else entirely. I think that the word Abomination is too pejorative by far. Of course I'm always obsessed with edge-cases, exceptions, and outliers. I may be making more of this than there is to make.

*raises hand* Preaching to the choir, right here.

The line b/t justice and vengeance is thin, so it's unsurprising that the distinction b/t spirits and demons is equally murky. All are dangerous, yes, but what can you expect when you take something black and white and throw it into a world of grey?

My personal headcanon imagines Justice continues changing, and, in fact, derives from TPratchett's Thief of Time with the Auditors. "When you pour water into a jug, it becomes jug-shaped. But the water is not the jug, nor is the jug water. And it is not the same water anymore."

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If spirits can become demons, can demons be cleansed back into spirits? What would you call a spirit who is halfway through his transition? There is no way that I would call Vengeance a full-fledged demon, but it's convenient to call him that, because any spirit who is remotely corrupted must be a demon. And so forth.

I consider Vengeance to be a new kind of entity. And I consider JAnders to be something else entirely. I think that the word Abomination is too pejorative by far. Of course I'm always obsessed with edge-cases, exceptions, and outliers. I may be making more of this than there is to make.

*raises hand* Preaching to the choir, right here.

The line b/t justice and vengeance is thin, so it's unsurprising that the distinction b/t spirits and demons is equally murky. All are dangerous, yes, but what can you expect when you take something black and white and throw it into a world of grey?

My personal headcanon imagines Justice continues changing, and, in fact, derives from TPratchett's Thief of Time with the Auditors. "When you pour water into a jug, it becomes jug-shaped. But the water is not the jug, nor is the jug water. And it is not the same water anymore."

Pratchet is the best writer. The best one. And I agree with that metaphor wholeheartedly.

The other thing I have in my head about Vengeance is the obvious similarity to the idea of an Avenging Angel. Now part of that is just the way I tend ot think; I had a character in a stalled comic project years ago who was a girl with an avenging angel inside of her (well it was more complicated than that, but you get the idea.) Justice fits the template for an avenging angel pretty well, especially considering all of Izzy's jokes about the Smiting, and Anders' talk about knowing nothing of mercy.

I always found avenging angels a bit disconcerting. I don't think the reality is that simple, but it's the first thing Vengeance reminded me of.

[Hill-Hurwitz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The other thing I have in my head about Vengeance is the obvious similarity to the idea of an Avenging Angel. Now part of that is just the way I tend ot think; I had a character in a stalled comic project years ago who was a girl with an avenging angel inside of her (well it was more complicated than that, but you get the idea.) Justice fits the template for an avenging angel pretty well, especially considering all of Izzy's jokes about the Smiting, and Anders' talk about knowing nothing of mercy.

I always found avenging angels a bit disconcerting. I don't think the reality is that simple, but it's the first thing Vengeance reminded me of.

Totally. The Jenga'ing of the Chantry reminds me so much of the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah, complete with the staff banging denouncement. Have you heard all the Justice/Anders lines seperated? While I love how they're both in harmony when talking to Orsino (at least that's how I see friendmanced), when seperated you get a better feel on Justice's side of things - he sounds so sad with the line 'there can be no turning back.'

HUGS FOREVER T_T

[Amondra]

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The other thing I have in my head about Vengeance is the obvious similarity to the idea of an Avenging Angel. Now part of that is just the way I tend ot think; I had a character in a stalled comic project years ago who was a girl with an avenging angel inside of her (well it was more complicated than that, but you get the idea.) Justice fits the template for an avenging angel pretty well, especially considering all of Izzy's jokes about the Smiting, and Anders' talk about knowing nothing of mercy.

I always found avenging angels a bit disconcerting. I don't think the reality is that simple, but it's the first thing Vengeance reminded me of.

Totally. The Jenga'ing of the Chantry reminds me so much of the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah, complete with the staff banging denouncement. Have you heard all the Justice/Anders lines seperated? While I love how they're both in harmony when talking to Orsino (at least that's how I see friendmanced), when seperated you get a better feel on Justice's side of things - he sounds so sad with the line 'there can be no turning back.'

HUGS FOREVER T_T

Wow.  I honestly love Anders and Jsutice both, so I would hug them both to death...or until some badies show up and we need to wreck some face.

[Jean]

"The time has come to act therecanbenohalfmeasures"

ah Justice.

[Lady Dino]

You know that last "my sword is yours" line makes me think of Anders being an Arcane Warrior. Justice knows how to fight with sword and board so wouldn't JAnders technically know how to as well?

Or maybe finding Justice in the fade with armor and weapons and plate mail and... umm, yeah. You get the idea.

[ashyraine]

This is kinda pertinent to the debate today.. sorta. and OMG can't.. stop...laughing..

Anders the Pooh

[Sarielle]

Augh. This "intend to rivalmance Anders" playthrough may end up friendmancing Fenris instead =/ The blunt Hawke compliments him so well. D:

I have a hard time going anti-mage though, and I'm not sure I can make myself do another playthrough like this >_O;

[Amondra]

Sarielle wrote...

Augh. This "intend to rivalmance Anders" playthrough may end up friendmancing Fenris instead =/ The blunt Hawke compliments him so well. D:

I have a hard time going anti-mage though, and I'm not sure I can make myself do another playthrough like this >_O;

It's weird.  I know there are resons to roll pro-Templar. I mean you run into a lot of bad mages, but I find myself questioning how much of that is being backed into a corner, the who deal with kirkwall when it was under Tevinter control vs. them just being bad.

Next thing I know I am pro-mage.  I just can't get my head into Templar mode.

[Lady Dino]

Sarielle wrote...

Augh. This "intend to rivalmance Anders" playthrough may end up friendmancing Fenris instead =/ The blunt Hawke compliments him so well. D:

I have a hard time going anti-mage though, and I'm not sure I can make myself do another playthrough like this >_O;

My Blunt!Tank!Hawke rocked the friendmance with Fenris. It was pretty hot. Plus since Bethany died in the deep roads she had no reason not to go pro-templar after her mother dies. (Mages bring her only more saddness) But even if I rp the **** out of the game I always feel terrible telling Orsino that Hawke's siding with Meredith 

My rivalmance with Anders was for science so once he was maxed out on rival, which is quick and painless if you're careful about it, I went back to being pro mage just 'cause I didn't care about the rp stuff and I love me some mages so w/e. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Amondra wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Augh. This "intend to rivalmance Anders" playthrough may end up friendmancing Fenris instead =/ The blunt Hawke compliments him so well. D:

I have a hard time going anti-mage though, and I'm not sure I can make myself do another playthrough like this >_O;

It's weird.  I know there are resons to roll pro-Templar. I mean you run into a lot of bad mages, but I find myself questioning how much of that is being backed into a corner, the who deal with kirkwall when it was under Tevinter control vs. them just being bad.

Next thing I know I am pro-mage.  I just can't get my head into Templar mode.

You can friendmance Fenris without being too pro-templar. Takes some micro-managing though. My second Hawke is a Fenris-mancing MageHawke, and she managed friend too. It just requires taking him on slave-and-bloodmage-related trips, and keeping him away from honest mages. (My friend calls MageHawke romances with Fenris "trolling Fenris's lovelife." I feel even more manipulative when I'm secretly supporting mages behind his back. I figure after living with Hawke for however many years, he'll come around. He'd better!)

I can go Templar until the end of the game, but the final battle is always gonna be pro-mage. I'd sooner knife Anders than carry out the Annulment. My Anders Rivalmance is a templar-favoring Rogue, but even she's going to end up siding with the mages at the end. Because, I'm sorry, as much as Crow wants to be Viscount, that [female Mabari] is crazy. If Meredith had wanted Anders executed for his crimes, Crow would have done it happily to save the Mages and reinforce the Templars. But since killing Anders fixes nothing, she neither kills him nor sides with the Templars. People can change, I guess.

Also, if you don't go pro-mage in the final battle, you don't hear Varric's breathy little "Thank the Maker." Oh Varric, a true bro to the end. If you had been a romance option, I would have been so sorely tempted.

I still haven't been able to made Izzy or Merril-focused romantic playthroughs, though I do Fenris's one night stand on most of my Anders playthroughs, and/or Izzy's. I am weak and I like the drama.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 juin 2011 - 05:49 .

[Amondra]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Augh. This "intend to rivalmance Anders" playthrough may end up friendmancing Fenris instead =/ The blunt Hawke compliments him so well. D:

I have a hard time going anti-mage though, and I'm not sure I can make myself do another playthrough like this >_O;

It's weird.  I know there are resons to roll pro-Templar. I mean you run into a lot of bad mages, but I find myself questioning how much of that is being backed into a corner, the who deal with kirkwall when it was under Tevinter control vs. them just being bad.

Next thing I know I am pro-mage.  I just can't get my head into Templar mode.

You can friendmance Fenris without being too pro-templar. Takes some micro-managing though. My second Hawke is a Fenris-mancing MageHawke, and she managed friend too. It just requires taking him on slave-and-bloodmage-related trips, and keeping him away from honest mages. (My friend calls MageHawke romances with Fenris "trolling Fenris's lovelife." I feel even more manipulative when I'm secretly supporting mages behind his back. I figure after living with Hawke for however many years, he'll come around. He'd better!)

I can go Templar until the end of the game, but the final battle is always gonna be pro-mage. I'd sooner knife Anders than carry out the Annulment. My Anders Rivalmance is a templar-favoring Rogue, but even she's going to end up siding with the mages at the end. Because, I'm sorry, as much as Crow wants to be Viscount, that [female Mabari] is crazy. If Meredith had wanted Anders executed for his crimes, Crow would have done it happily to save the Mages and reinforce the Templars. But since killing Anders fixes nothing, she neither kills him nor sides with the Templars. People can change, I guess.

Also, if you don't go pro-mage in the final battle, you don't hear Varric's breathy little "Thank the Maker." Oh Varric, a true bro to the end. If you had been a romance option, I would have been so sorely tempted.

I still haven't been able to made Izzy or Merril-focused romantic playthroughs, though I do Fenris's one night stand on most of my Anders playthroughs, and/or Izzy's. I am weak and I like the drama.

Oh Fenris I just rivalmance lol.  I just can seem to do a soild Templar run.