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[CalJones]

LT123 wrote...

I'm always amused by trying to give Fenris the Sword of Mercy on rivalry, because the conversation goes something like this:

Hawke: Hey, check this out. *hands him sword*
Fenris: *is interested, explains what the sword is, makes it light up, goes on about Tevinter*
Hawke: So, you can have this if you want.
Fenris: Screw you! *refuses sword*
Hawke: *trudges home, depressed*

And then I equip it on him anyway.

Giving Anders the Tevinter amulet is funny, too, because he freaks out about it being sacrilegious. Hawke is terrible at giving presents.

Not forgetting the "flower" pendant he gives to Isabela.




Edit for top...

Modifié par CalJones, 10 juin 2011 - 09:48 .

[highcastle]

ipgd wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Can someone please explain to me where they see that Anders loves Hawke no matter what.

I dont see it all.
I have been through his friend path.
I am on his rival path.

What lines clearly show this?

Not that I doubt it being as bad at catching things as I was (did not realize Leliana was flirting with my female warden the first... two times) but I would like to know where people see this.

He does become highly anal pained if you romance anyone else, such as:

Anders: I know it isn't my place to criticize, but...
Anders: Are you sure about Fenris?
Anders: He seems less a man to me than a wild dog.
Hawke: You just don't know him.
Anders: I know as much as I'm ever likely to.
Fenris: That's right, mage.
Anders: He has let one bad experience color his whole world. Surely you want someone more open minded?
Fenris: A mage and a hypocrite. What company you keep.

ipgd was quicker than me on that one. Another dialogue of note would be a similar conversation with Isabela, in which she asks if he'd been listening outside the door the night she and Hawke slept together. Or this gem if Hawke's romanced Merrill:

Anders: Hawke was a fool to let you move in. You'll only betray him. That's all your kind can do.
Merrill: Why do you do this to me. Are you jealous? You don't get upset about Hawke and Isabela?
Anders: You really can't get jealous of someone for sleeping with Isabela. It's just understood... She's like the side dish. She comes with the meal.

Notice that Anders virtually admits he's jealous in his second line.

[Sialater]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think its more because he HATES Fenris and Merrill.

Not that he loves Hawke.

He doesn't hate Merrill.  He's just.. undiplomatic.  He wouldn't keep warning her if he hated her.

[Reflection Muse]

This thread's current title is cracking me up so hard right now. All I can think of is this:

[Sialater]

Reflection Muse wrote...

This thread's current title is cracking me up so hard right now. All I can think of is this:

Good to know I wasn't the only one. 

[SurelyForth]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think its more because he HATES Fenris and Merrill.

Not that he loves Hawke.

If he just hated them, he'd just diss them. Instead, he disses them and then subtly suggests himself as an alternative.

And I think he does always love Hawke, or at least has strong feelings for her/him.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sialater wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think its more because he HATES Fenris and Merrill.

Not that he loves Hawke.

He doesn't hate Merrill.  He's just.. undiplomatic.  He wouldn't keep warning her if he hated her.

His act 3 banter and what he says during A NEW PATH indicate other wise. 

[Giggles_Manically]

SurelyForth wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think its more because he HATES Fenris and Merrill.

Not that he loves Hawke.

If he just hated them, he'd just diss them. Instead, he disses them and then subtly suggests himself as an alternative.

And I think he does always love Hawke, or at least has strong feelings for her/him.

During Justice though he just says that Merrill would never pick Hawke over a demon.

He has no lines suggesting that Hawke should pick him.
Or unless I missed that too somehow. 

[ipgd]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

His act 3 banter and what he says during A NEW PATH indicate other wise.

I don't think it's hatred, just projection. He sees himself in her, and because he's a big bumbling jackass he expresses his concern by being the biggest douchebag possible. He's frustrated that she has time to stop before she ruins her life like he did, but won't.

[SurelyForth]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sialater wrote...
He doesn't hate Merrill.  He's just.. undiplomatic.  He wouldn't keep warning her if he hated her.

His act 3 banter and what he says during A NEW PATH indicate other wise. 

I think his harshness with Merrill is projecting a lot of his own self-hatred onto her. Not only did she make a deal with a demon, but a person she loved and who cared for her was hurt and killed in the process, to protect Merrill from her own decision. It's like Anders' worst nightmare, that Justice or his actions in Act III will actually harm Hawke, yet he's committed to the path whether he wants to be or not, while he thinks Merrill has a choice.

's by ipgd

@Giggles When he says "you should be with someone more open-minded" or whatever, he means himself. Hilariously.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 juin 2011 - 08:30 .

[highcastle]

I think his dialogues with Merrill during a New Path make it clear he doesn't hate her by any stretch of the imagination. He just disagrees with her and believes her misguided. Consider:

Anders: I don't know why I'm doing this, but you do realize it's crazy, right?
Merrill: Believe me, I noticed. If I had any other choices, I'd take them.
Anders: You had choices! You always had choices! Stop using blood magic. Get rid of that damned mirror!

In both of his lines, Anders indicates that he cares enough about Merrill to attempt a last warning. He also attempts to show her other options. Anders is a proponent of free will, thus he believes we choose our paths to some degree. So he's hoping Merrill will make the right choice before it's too late. I doubt he'd do that much for someone he hates.

After a New Path, he tells her"

Anders: Make up for your mistakes. Most blood mages never get a second chance.

Once again, we see Anders warning and cautioning Merrill. It's not a flat condemnation. He's telling her she can still atone. I don't think he'd offer even a hint of absolution if he completely detested her.

[Sialater]

SurelyForth wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sialater wrote...
He doesn't hate Merrill.  He's just.. undiplomatic.  He wouldn't keep warning her if he hated her.

His act 3 banter and what he says during A NEW PATH indicate other wise. 

I think his harshness with Merrill is projecting a lot of his own self-hatred onto her. Not only did she make a deal with a demon, but a person she loved and who cared for her was hurt and killed in the process, to protect Merrill from her own decision. It's like Anders' worst nightmare, that Justice or his actions in Act III will actually harm Hawke, yet he's committed to the path whether he wants to be or not, while he thinks Merrill has a choice.

's by ipgd

@Giggles When he says "you should be with someone more open-minded" or whatever, he means himself. Hilariously.

He is a gigantic hypocrite.  

But yes, he's shouting at her to learn from his example and now she didn't and she's responsible for the death of someone she loves, which is his worst nightmare.

When Fenris yells at her, I may be imagining things, but I think he's ultimately disappointed in her.

[Mekarah]

ipgd wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

His act 3 banter and what he says during A NEW PATH indicate other wise.

I don't think it's hatred, just projection. He sees himself in her, and because he's a big bumbling jackass he expresses his concern by being the biggest douchebag possible. He's frustrated that she has time to stop before she ruins her life like he did, but won't.

QFT.  It's like a parent. I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed.

Also the new thread title made me laugh out loud at work. Succinct.

[Sarielle]

SurelyForth wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think its more because he HATES Fenris and Merrill.

Not that he loves Hawke.

If he just hated them, he'd just diss them. Instead, he disses them and then subtly suggests himself as an alternative.

And I think he does always love Hawke, or at least has strong feelings for her/him.

Yeah, it's the fact that he does in some way shape or form indicate he'd be a better choice. That, and as others have beaten me to (dang house that needs cleaning) he hinges his entire view of himself ultimately on Hawke. I don't see how that's possible without being in love with somebody. Also, very broken. But the love thing too.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I also agree with the premise that Anders is always in love with Hawke, though I also get the impression that Fenris is often at least a little in love with Hawke, though not in the same way. Possibly, in non-romantic playthroughs, solely in the hero-worship kind of sway.

I especially like Highcastle's assessment that Anders falls for Hawke because of Hawke's acceptance - because I don't think that Anders would accept Anders at that point. Sadly, I don't think Anders would have had the strength to blow the Chantry without Hawke present... in the case of FriendHawke, it gives him faith in himself. In the case of RivalHawke it gives him a target to struggle against, something that polarizes him enough to jolt him out of entropy. At the very least, without Hawke's acceptance and protection, Anders would definitely have been forced to skip town before Act 3, moving on somewhere else to begin the cycle of self-loathing and self-flagellation over again.

Now, back on to what I always do: Songs! Songs for Anders! 

I've thought of this as an Anders song for a while now, but I only just realized it's for Rivaled and/or Rejected Anders more than anyone else. The last verse, especially.

100.000 Fireflies

I have a mandolin
I play it all night long
It makes me want to kill myself
I also have a dobro
Made in some mountain range
Sounds like a mountain range in love
But when I turn up the tone
On my electric guitar
I'm afraid of the dark without you close to me
I'm afraid of the dark without you close to me

I went out to the forest and caught
A hundred thousand fireflies
As they ricochet round the room
They remind me of your starry eyes
Someone else's might not have made me so sad
But this is the worst night I ever had
'cause I'm afraid of the dark without you close to me
I'm afraid of the dark without you close to me
Always was

You won't be happy with me,
But give me one more chance
You won't be happy anyway
Why do we still live here
In this repulsive town?
All our friends are in New York
Why do we keep shrieking,
when we mean soft things?
We should be whispering all the time...

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 juin 2011 - 10:06 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Hah @ new thread title. What was the prompt for this hilarious change?

[SurelyForth]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Hah @ new thread title. What was the prompt for this hilarious change?

This succinct and enlightening post.

[kromify]

someone trying to be smart mouthed and failing

anyways, i'm off to bed. see ya in the morning my lovelies

[kromify]

SurelyForth wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Hah @ new thread title. What was the prompt for this hilarious change?

This succinct and enlightening post.

my sarcasm sense is tingling  

[Jon Jern_]

If you say Yuck alot it says funny.

^ New discussion, okay guys?

[ipgd]

I'd be more engaged by your troll attempts if I could decipher the meaning of anything you said. As is, my confusion mostly precludes any possible outrage. You may wish to consider a more direct approach; may I suggest a Twilight comparison?

[LT123]

I'm having flashbacks to the Dalish origin, and how horrible things can happen to people who touch random magical objects without knowing what they're doing.

And Hawke and Varric don't pay any attention. Great.

[signcherie]

highcastle wrote...

That's my impression, too. Regardless of how he treats him, regardless of whether his affections are returned, Hawke is the love of Anders' life. And not only that, he's the pillar to which Anders lashes any semblance of his self. When he first encounters Hawke, he's still coming to grips with his merger with Justice and the idea that he has altered himself completely. Every thought he has is suspect; it could arrise from somewhere, someone else. And somehow he meets this person who's with him during a very traumatic event, who returns to him later despite seeing Anders at his most monstrous, and that's it. Flip switched. Damage done. At this point, I believe, Anders is irrevocably in love with Hawke.

It's also interesting that Anders is the only character whose entire world-view can shift regarding his relationship with Hawke. Other companions may shift their view of Hawke himself, or perhaps one or two issues--such as Merrill and her mirror--but otherwise remain fundamentally the same. But Anders defines himself fully by Hawke's perception of him. In a friendship, Anders' views are reinforced and he comes to accept himself as being more than what he once was, but still a unified whole. On the rivalry, he sees himself as two warring entities, Regardless, there is a part of him that always loves Hawke, that trusts him to be honest (referenced in one of their Act 1 conversations), and thus to believe about himself whatever Hawke says is true. Is he a visionary or a monster? It's up to Hawke to decide, but either way, Anders agrees.

Which is really rather depressing now that I've written it all out.

I love this post. I love your interpretation of why Anders falls in love with Hawke. And everything else is exactly how I see Anders, only worded way more eloquently than I could ever say it.

Also, .

[Addai]

signcherie wrote...

highcastle wrote...

That's my impression, too. Regardless of how he treats him, regardless of whether his affections are returned, Hawke is the love of Anders' life. And not only that, he's the pillar to which Anders lashes any semblance of his self. When he first encounters Hawke, he's still coming to grips with his merger with Justice and the idea that he has altered himself completely. Every thought he has is suspect; it could arrise from somewhere, someone else. And somehow he meets this person who's with him during a very traumatic event, who returns to him later despite seeing Anders at his most monstrous, and that's it. Flip switched. Damage done. At this point, I believe, Anders is irrevocably in love with Hawke.

It's also interesting that Anders is the only character whose entire world-view can shift regarding his relationship with Hawke. Other companions may shift their view of Hawke himself, or perhaps one or two issues--such as Merrill and her mirror--but otherwise remain fundamentally the same. But Anders defines himself fully by Hawke's perception of him. In a friendship, Anders' views are reinforced and he comes to accept himself as being more than what he once was, but still a unified whole. On the rivalry, he sees himself as two warring entities, Regardless, there is a part of him that always loves Hawke, that trusts him to be honest (referenced in one of their Act 1 conversations), and thus to believe about himself whatever Hawke says is true. Is he a visionary or a monster? It's up to Hawke to decide, but either way, Anders agrees.

Which is really rather depressing now that I've written it all out.

I love this post. I love your interpretation of why Anders falls in love with Hawke. And everything else is exactly how I see Anders, only worded way more eloquently than I could ever say it.

Also, .

Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

[Arquen]

To jump on the Merrill/ Anders thing for a sec I actually love this conversation:

Merrill: Poor Anders.
Fenris: You pity him? He's dangerous to himself and everyone around him.
Merrill: I think he's broken the thing he wanted to save.
Fenris: You pity him because he's you.
Merrill: Breaking the things you love most isn't restricted to mages, Fenris.
Fenris: Sadly true.

I think Anders doesn't really hate Merrill but he does feel like she is walking a dangerous path. Maybe he does see himself in her at least a little. Mostly I think he wants to save her from making huge mistakes, like everyone else does. Of course being Merrill she doesn't listen, and therefore just gets more anger from Anders. I think as a person Anders actually likes Merrill, but her decisions are what make him "hate" her.

I only wish Anders could chime in on this conversation, LOL.