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[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

See, I think that if you friendmance him you're merely helping him find himself (or helping him find balance with himself and Justice) and he'd be able to survive without Hawke. He'd be lonely, but he'd have his cause to sustain him for as long as he can survive. You're not really convincing him of anything besides his self worth which has been, understandably, shattered by the merger with Justice. So it's co-dependent in a way because he depends on Hawke for emotional fulfillment and a sense of stability (which is true of a lot of adult relationships, especially when one partner has no other familial attachments), but he's able to function on his own in his clinic and he has friendships outside of Hawke. He also has goals and concerns above and independent of Hawke, so he's not laser-focused on her. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 juin 2011 - 04:10 .

[signcherie]

Addai67 wrote...


Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

Are you asking me? I, personally, in real life, would probably not go for someone like Anders. In a game, because I find him an interesting character. Or because I'm playing a PC with similar views to his, who likes to be around him... I mean, he's a funny, likeable guy, particularly in act one when Hawke first meets him. Is it hard to believe someone might fall for him and then stick with him when they find out he has issues?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I guess that's how I usually see it when I play.

[Zjarcal]

Arquen wrote...

To jump on the Merrill/ Anders thing for a sec I actually love this conversation:

Merrill: Poor Anders.
Fenris: You pity him? He's dangerous to himself and everyone around him.
Merrill: I think he's broken the thing he wanted to save.
Fenris: You pity him because he's you.
Merrill: Breaking the things you love most isn't restricted to mages, Fenris.
Fenris: Sadly true.

I think Anders doesn't really hate Merrill but he does feel like she is walking a dangerous path. Maybe he does see himself in her at least a little. Mostly I think he wants to save her from making huge mistakes, like everyone else does. Of course being Merrill she doesn't listen, and therefore just gets more anger from Anders. I think as a person Anders actually likes Merrill, but her decisions are what make him "hate" her.

I only wish Anders could chime in on this conversation, LOL. 

I agree 100% with this.

Unlike other Merrill fans who hate Anders for being "mean" to Merrill, I could see that he was really trying to help her, in his own way of course. One banter they have (that only triggers after Marethari dies) pretty much confirms that theory.

[Sarielle]

Addai67 wrote...

signcherie wrote...

highcastle wrote...

That's my impression, too. Regardless of how he treats him, regardless of whether his affections are returned, Hawke is the love of Anders' life. And not only that, he's the pillar to which Anders lashes any semblance of his self. When he first encounters Hawke, he's still coming to grips with his merger with Justice and the idea that he has altered himself completely. Every thought he has is suspect; it could arrise from somewhere, someone else. And somehow he meets this person who's with him during a very traumatic event, who returns to him later despite seeing Anders at his most monstrous, and that's it. Flip switched. Damage done. At this point, I believe, Anders is irrevocably in love with Hawke.

It's also interesting that Anders is the only character whose entire world-view can shift regarding his relationship with Hawke. Other companions may shift their view of Hawke himself, or perhaps one or two issues--such as Merrill and her mirror--but otherwise remain fundamentally the same. But Anders defines himself fully by Hawke's perception of him. In a friendship, Anders' views are reinforced and he comes to accept himself as being more than what he once was, but still a unified whole. On the rivalry, he sees himself as two warring entities, Regardless, there is a part of him that always loves Hawke, that trusts him to be honest (referenced in one of their Act 1 conversations), and thus to believe about himself whatever Hawke says is true. Is he a visionary or a monster? It's up to Hawke to decide, but either way, Anders agrees.

Which is really rather depressing now that I've written it all out.

I love this post. I love your interpretation of why Anders falls in love with Hawke. And everything else is exactly how I see Anders, only worded way more eloquently than I could ever say it.

Also, .

Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

Uh, in the playthrough I'm doing (I have no complete romance done yet) my PC has no intentions of it at first. She's very put off my his "strange personal habits" is I believe how she put it. She needs him for a map, lets him stay on because he's more or less in control of himself (in Act 1) and a healer is useful. She's a practical girl.

She's about to romance Fenris. The only "flirt" line she's used on Anders was to say "They'll have to go through me first" about the Templars coming for him in Act 2 -- and this because he's become a friend, and she's blunt and aggressive and overprotective like that. When he starts his whole "I'd drown us in blood to keep you safe," she immediately pulls the "That's Justice talking" card and that's that.

After Fenris' inevitable commitment issues, I see sexual tension hitting the boiling point -- and she'd want someone to rebound with, maybe -- and voila. Anders rivalmance.

I think both straight up fixing and exploiting are also viable reasons, depending on how manipulative or naive your character is.

[signcherie]

SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

See, I think that if you friendmance him you're merely helping him find himself (or helping him find balance with himself and Justice) and he'd be able to survive without Hawke. He'd be lonely, but he'd have his cause to sustain him for as long as he can survive. You're not really convincing him of anything besides his self worth which has been, understandably, shattered by the merger with Justice. So it's co-dependent in a way because he depends on Hawke for emotional fulfillment and a sense of stability (which is true of a lot of adult relationships, especially when one partner has no other familial attachments), but he's able to function on his own in his clinic and he has friendships outside of Hawke. He also has goals and concerns above and independent of Hawke, so he's not laser-focused on her. 

I think this is probably also true. I don't play a character who likes Anders because she wants to fix him. She likes him for himself, gets into a relationship with him, and some measure of "fixing" of his self-esteem happens along the way. He may become a more stable person because of Hawke, but that's not Hawke's goal. She just loves him for being the guy that helps all those refugees, that wants to help the mages, that has a killer smile and a sense of humor, etc. etc.

[Addai]

signcherie wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

Are you asking me? I, personally, in real life, would probably not go for someone like Anders. In a game, because I find him an interesting character. Or because I'm playing a PC with similar views to his, who likes to be around him... I mean, he's a funny, likeable guy, particularly in act one when Hawke first meets him. Is it hard to believe someone might fall for him and then stick with him when they find out he has issues?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I guess that's how I usually see it when I play.

But he's pretty much out there with his issues from moment one?  I could see it if he was more reticent, or if the Justice merger was so new that Hawke didn't realize it until later.

[Addai]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

Being genuinely in love with the person is not enough to warrant a romantic relationship?

No.  Not in my view of adult relationships.

[Arquen]

Some people find deep seated issues in a relationship exciting. Personally, I cannot fall in love with Anders. I like him just fine, and he is one of my favorite characters for his complexities and personality, but I find his romantic side as obsessive and fanatical as everything else in his life.

He is a man of passions, and so I can see how people love him for that. He would be a loyal partner, and despite his issues always seeks to keep Hawke safe. Even if you don't romance him he is always looking out for Hawke, and puts his/her safety and wellbeing into consideration always. He is rather selfless in that respect. I can see why people love him despite his "issues." Also, some people probably love him because of his issues, LOL. The way he so desperately wants to love and be loved by Hawke, how he just attaches himself to Hawke and cares so much for him/her.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Addai67 wrote...

Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

Perhaps... because you love them?

I'm the worst person to ask about this... I'm more Zevran than Anders, when it comes to my history of past relationships, but love isn't about being reasonable or rational. It's about being in god damned bloody love and nobody can take that from you.

Being in love is when all the songs suddenly make sense, and Anders makes so very, very many songs make sense. Most of them sad songs that I could never imagine identifying with. But you bleed just to know you're alive, yeah?

Fare thee well, my bright star
It was a brief brilliant miracle dive
That which I looked up to and I clung to for dear life
Had to burn itself up just to make itself alive

And I caught you then, in your moment of glory
Your last dramatic scene against a night sky stage
With a memory so clear it's as if you're still before me
My once in a lifetime star of an age

Now, part of loving someone like Anders is either foolishness or ego. Foolishness to believe he won't hurt you, or ego to believe you can handle whatever he throws at you.

Foolish! Hawke is hurt by the things Anders does, and is overwhelmed by his love and need, but loves him anyway. Anders and Hawke echo pain and need and vulnerability into each other forever here, and it is terrible and beautiful and romantic. She loves him because she loves him, and feels like healing him and being there for him is a good use of her time. Being compassionate and needed just feels awesome sometimes. There's no other way to put it. Seeing pain and taking it away is great. Maybe that's wrong, but if it is I certainly don't want to be right.

Ego! Hawke gets exactly what he deserves. He knows what he is in for, but has decided he's important enough to shape this man, and strong enough to do without the full measure of his devotion. Ego!Hawke has decided that being hurt, and lied to, and having to deal with the crazy, all these thingsare objectively worth it, because this man is both wonderful and powerful and this love is too good of a thing to let go because it just doesn't happen to be perfect. He realizes that we are all shaped by people around us, by people in our lives, and what's happening with Anders is just a slightly more intense version of that. He may or may not allow Anders to shape him, too. Better that Anders be shaped by someone good and caring than let him twist alone in the world.

I've been talking with my friend about this... maybe someday she'll finish her fic about it. In a lot of ways, Fenris is the reasonable choice, the practical choice. He is the smart bet, with his devotion and stability and apologies and puppy eyes, with Hawke being the single most important thing in his life. If you love them both, if you're capable of loving them both the same amount, then go with Fenris. By the end of the game he has more sanity than he started with, rather than less. My Hawke who loves everyone equally and who is neither egotistical nor foolish does this, ends up with Fenris and sends Anders off to find The Warden.

But that's not how love usually works. You usually don't sit in a room with all the men who have happened to make your acquaintance and say "hmm, who is most logically compatible with me? Who would be the most devoted to me?" You sit in a room with all the men you've met, some who you've never met, and some who are outright fantasies, and you look and see where the red string around your wrist leads. And if it leads to a dangerous crazy desperate man, you decide whether you're foolish enough to trust him or egotistical enough to believe you can live through the life you know he represents.

Sometimes this ends in disaster or heartbreak, but that's better than just feeling nothing.

Or, to quote the worst romantic line ever written by Bioware:

"Heavy risk... but the priiiiiiiiize."

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

See, I think that if you friendmance him you're merely helping him find himself (or helping him find balance with himself and Justice) and he'd be able to survive without Hawke.

Perhaps this is why I don't get it- because I can never be okay with the Justice merger.  I did have a Hawke who ended up at max friendship with him, but only because she was helping mages and as to his personal issues was more like "you don't think this is a good idea, do you?  okay, well, I'll go stand over here now" sort of neutral in their conversations.

[Sarielle]

Oh, if we're talking about the real us romancing Anders...uh, no. Crazy's only fun in fiction. Then again, real me wouldn't romance Fenris or Isabela either. Varric, yes, Merrill maybe if I swung that way (it's more that I have a hard time thinking of her as anything other than a little sister than anything).

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

Being genuinely in love with the person is not enough to warrant a romantic relationship?

No.  Not in my view of adult relationships.

Different views, the root of all disagreements.

Personally I do feel being in love with the person is enough. But my views of an adult relationship are obviously different than most.

[ipgd]

Addai67 wrote...

Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

My Hawke is a doormat with daddy issues.

My interest in him is on a, uh, third party meta literary level. He is an interesting character because he is a completely unstable nutjob and his relationship with Hawke is interesting because it's incredibly unhealthy and codependant.

I don't think any of us have some sort of strange Twilight-esque illusion that he is a perfectly healthy and responsible individual. He's nuts. But that is the point.

Modifié par ipgd, 11 juin 2011 - 04:41 .

[signcherie]

Addai67 wrote...

signcherie wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

Are you asking me? I, personally, in real life, would probably not go for someone like Anders. In a game, because I find him an interesting character. Or because I'm playing a PC with similar views to his, who likes to be around him... I mean, he's a funny, likeable guy, particularly in act one when Hawke first meets him. Is it hard to believe someone might fall for him and then stick with him when they find out he has issues?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I guess that's how I usually see it when I play.

But he's pretty much out there with his issues from moment one?  I could see it if he was more reticent, or if the Justice merger was so new that Hawke didn't realize it until later.

Well...the Justice merger is not really the same thing as what you were asking about before. It's not like he tells you about Justice and you think, "Oh, this guy is co-dependent and has no sense of self." You don't really see that about him until much later.

As for the Justice merger, when I roleplay Hawke, I think she starts out feeling bad for him for trying to do something good, save his friend, and having it go so wrong. But she also thinks that he's strong enough to control it, and if that changes, she'll deal with it at that time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

"Yuck" is pretty much summarizing my views of the thread at the moment

Love is such an overrated thing, to think it should override reason.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
I don't think any of us have some sort of strange Twilight-esque illusion that he is a perfectly healthy and responsible individual. He's nuts. But that is the point.

No, I think many were  arguing, or were close to arguing, that he isn't nuts.
That he's some sort of avatar of justice (the ideal not the spirit), or some other fancyness.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"Yuck" is pretty much summarizing my views of the thread at the moment

Love is such an overrated thing, to think it should override reason.

I'm having flashbacks of a discussion in the Alistair thread... good times. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"Yuck" is pretty much summarizing my views of the thread at the moment

Love is such an overrated thing, to think it should override reason.

I'm having flashbacks of a discussion in the Alistair thread... good times. 

Ironically enough, I think it was with Addai
Unless I am remembering incorrectly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this?  Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self?  Is it to fix him?  Exploit him?  Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.

Being genuinely in love with the person is not enough to warrant a romantic relationship?

No.  Not in my view of adult relationships.

I don't know what else to say to you. One would have to throw away common sense to want to be in a relationship with someone like Anders, and for those who think mainly with their hearts feelings are often stupid. That might not be reason enough for you, but it is reason enough for some.

Thank you.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

See, I think that if you friendmance him you're merely helping him find himself (or helping him find balance with himself and Justice) and he'd be able to survive without Hawke.

Perhaps this is why I don't get it- because I can never be okay with the Justice merger.  I did have a Hawke who ended up at max friendship with him, but only because she was helping mages and as to his personal issues was more like "you don't think this is a good idea, do you?  okay, well, I'll go stand over here now" sort of neutral in their conversations.

See, I understand why he did it. If his short story is to be believed, he was basically backed into a corner by the decisions of his WC to put him under templar guard at all times. The Wardens are supposed to be free from the Chantry, so the fact that he could be opressed even there (and after he'd proven himself a model Warden with the Hero/Orlesian Commander) pretty much convinced him that there was no way for a mage alone to prove his worth. 

And his motives for merging were noble, I think. He didn't want mages to just be wild, but he wanted them to have access to training AND their families, he wanted parents to be able to keep their children without fear of imprisonment. It was everything that was taken from him and his mother, and the turn from self-possessed, self-preservation above all else Awakening Anders to the Anders who is willing to sacrifice normalcy (which is pretty all he wants out of life) to take on basically the biggest government-type organization in the known world is pretty impressive. 

So he wanted to accomplish something, but he'd need the help. He trusted Justice, who wanted to help, and he sacrificed himself for a cause much larger than himself. He was naive, but I personally admire him for taking that risk, considering.

PS. This is not What I Would Do Or Think In Real Life. In VG World, With Magic And ****...I can handle the crazy and even see that he's not absolutely bat**** under some circumstances. IRL? No.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 juin 2011 - 04:54 .

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, I think many were  arguing, or were close to arguing, that he isn't nuts.
That he's some sort of avatar of justice (the ideal not the spirit), or some other fancyness.

I think that was more of a "he's nuts but not that kind of nuts" argument. On the subject of his approach to "romance", I'd hope we can all acknowledge that he is one creepy, codependant, unhealthy son of a bitch.

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"Yuck" is pretty much summarizing my views of the thread at the moment

Love is such an overrated thing, to think it should override reason.

What the hell, KoP.

The ponies got you too? Is that Geralt?

 

Exactly what I was thinking. 

Is there anywhere their infection hasn't spread?