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[ashyraine]

SurelyForth wrote...

ME2 handled companion specific quests (and it's pretty loaded with companion specific quests) much better than DA2. The thought of one of Anders' personal quests being on par with Mordin's for ethical/moral debate or with Garrus's for showing the depth of his and Hawke's relationship makes me salivate.

Seriously. Could you imagine getting to discuss the Chantry v. Mage issue in detail as you went after Alrik? Maybe as you find bodies (both mage and templar) beneath the Gallows, Anders could discuss his life in the Circle and some of the things he's seen helping the Mage Underground. Just...the depth that could have been added in just a few lines. I'd trade a few lines of party banter or a flirt for something like that with every companion.

And once again I say

Dear Bioware,

Please hire her! I'll toss in a plate of cookies to sweeten the deal.

Love,

Me


eek top!

This needs posting again.



by Yamisnuffles

Modifié par ashyraine, 11 juin 2011 - 04:31 .

[highcastle]

SurelyForth wrote...

ME2 handled companion specific quests (and it's pretty loaded with companion specific quests) much better than DA2. The thought of one of Anders' personal quests being on par with Mordin's for ethical/moral debate or with Garrus's for showing the depth of his and Hawke's relationship makes me salivate.

Seriously. Could you imagine getting to discuss the Chantry v. Mage issue in detail as you went after Alrik? Maybe as you find bodies (both mage and templar) beneath the Gallows, Anders could discuss his life in the Circle and some of the things he's seen helping the Mage Underground. Just...the depth that could have been added in just a few lines. I'd trade a few lines of party banter or a flirt for something like that with every companion.

While the companion quests were about the only thing I did like in ME2, they came at the expense of character interaction otherwise. At least DA2 still let me talk to my companions at least twice in each Act. I don't know how many times during that first part of the game I went to Garrus only to be rebuffed. Stupid f-ing calibrations...

Actually, as I think about it more, I don't think the companion quests in DA2 were any worse than ME2's. See, any "ethical" consideration the ME2 quests have goes right out the window with its paragon/renegade meter. The game tells you which is the right and which is the wrong decision. DA2 doesn't make those judgment calls. The characters themselves might call you out on it, but it's up to you to decide, for instance, if the knowledge Merrill's mirror could unlock is worth the cost of blood magic (though admittedly the writers could have upped the stakes on this one by making the mirror matter as much to Hawke as it does to Merrill. Then Hawke would have to decide if he wants, say, unlimited pancakes or such more than he wants to protect his friend.)

And I'm not sure the quests were the best times to have personal chats. Anders was focused on saving that girl. He wasn't about to waste time reminiscing about his childhood (especially considering he doesn't go into much detail about it, anyway). Merrill was driven by her mirror, Fenris by his revenge, etc. They make a few comments, but they focus on the task at hand. I think it was treated realistically in that regard.

[SurelyForth]

Paragon/Renegade is what you make of it and it's not always right or wrong, it's just how you perceive each action. Just like Friendship/Rivalry. As a matter of fact, the biggest difference between the two meters is the fact that it's not the Universe that's judging Hawke but her companions. If you agree with Anders and his cause, then Friendship with him is "right" the way a someone playing an idealistic/compassionate Shep would see Paragon points. Does that make sense?

And I don't know, if I went line by line through Garrus' dialogue in both his missions and the conversations between missions, I bet there's not that much less content there. Plus, with Garrus you can explore dialogue without missing out on the romance. That's one thing that I really hate about DA2, since Anders has some pretty interesting things to say of you don't flirt with him to get the kiss (and I think the Act 1 scene where he can flirt with you is much cooler if you choose the sarcastic option and take the rivalry hit).

And it wouldn't even have to be personal chats, just commentary as you move along instead of relentless amounts of fighting. Perhaps you could ask him about what he mentions later. Just something that integrates the quests into the narrative and adds additional depth of characterization for all Hawkes and not just those who romance him.

[ipgd]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

See, I actually find Alistair's romance sadder than Anders, in its way. Because for my Dalish warden, Alistair has to become king, because Anora isn't going to be kind to the Elves and mages. She's a decent enough sort but she isn't going to go out of her way to be open to the needs of minority groups. So he goes on the throne and sleeps with Morrigan and my elf becomes his mistress or whatever, if that (I'm still not 100% sure how that ends, for her.)

I personally can't see Alistair as more tragic than Anders. Then again, I don't give a **** about monogamy and it isn't the end of the universe for me if he bangs Morrigan or has to take the warden as his mistress. Hell, she gets all the benefits of being queen with none of the responsibility.


I really sort of hate Anders's entire archetype, really. The reason I like him as a character so much is because that archetype is thoroughly deconstructed and it completely blows up in his face; his obsessions and creepy devotion are presented as is, but as the romance progresses it shows the very undesirable sides of that that most cheesy romance novel protagonists glaze over or glorify. And that's mainly what Anders's romance represents for me: a deconstruction of cheesy romance novels.

On a microscopic level, many of his traits (namely, the cheese and sap) just squick the hell out of me, but the fact they're done almost cynically and they are balanced out by his many very negative traits (that operate as a flipside to those typical romance tropes) makes him very interesting from a meta perspective. I wouldn't play it if I didn't get the impression that Anders wasn't ultimately a manipulative leech and extremely toxic to Hawke

The idea that Anders's romance isn't a disaster is just... ugh. Anders minus the self-awareness and toxicity is every romance trope I hate ever.

Modifié par ipgd, 11 juin 2011 - 04:55 .

[ipgd]

SurelyForth wrote...

Paragon/Renegade is what you make of it and it's not always right or wrong, it's just how you perceive each action.

That's what it's supposed to be, but with the way Paragon/Renegade actually works it's less so in practice. There is no consequence to any of the dumb Paragon choices, and very few of the "efficient, pragmatic" Renegade choices result in anything but Shepard looking like a douchebag. Renegade gets so thoroughly boned that the game feels like an aesop for Doing The Right Thing at times.

[SurelyForth]

ipgd wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Paragon/Renegade is what you make of it and it's not always right or wrong, it's just how you perceive each action.

That's what it's supposed to be, but with the way Paragon/Renegade actually works it's less so in practice. There is no consequence to any of the dumb Paragon choices, and very few of the "efficient, pragmatic" Renegade choices result in anything but Shepard looking like a douchebag. Renegade gets so thoroughly boned that the game feels like an aesop for Doing The Right Thing at times.

And yet there are those who insist that Renegade is the only smart way to go and that, despite all evidence to the contrary so far, Paragons have set themselves up for failure. And there are some pretty big decisions that we make in ME2 that we can't really foresee the results of (mainly how Shep handles Legion's quest and the Collector Base) and some in ME1 that might end up being A Big Deal in ME3. 

[ipgd]

SurelyForth wrote...

And yet there are those who insist that Renegade is the only smart way to go and that, despite all evidence to the contrary so far, Paragons have set themselves up for failure. And there are some pretty big decisions that we make in ME2 that we can't really foresee the results of (mainly how Shep handles Legion's quest and the Collector Base) and some in ME1 that might end up being A Big Deal in ME3.

Renegade should be the smart way to go in many cases, but all evidence points towards the idea that not only will Paragon keep the moral high ground, Paragon will have the most effective outcomes. Renegade will look like an ****, have less content, and generally shoot himself in the foot. Some people have the illusion that Bioware will try to include some semblance of balance between the outcome of Paragon/Renegade choices, which is the origin of that argument. But, of course, they will not, because metagaming tells us pragmatism is irrelevant and being the Good Guy is enough to save you from ever having to deal with consequences.

The collector base is looking exactly like the council decision so far. Paragon gets everything with no consequences, Renegade chokes down a big steaming turd.

[beckaliz]

Just to be devil's advocate... though I hate devil's advocates and I still wish they'd done it differently... There is one case I can see for handling the companion conversations the way they did in DA2 vs DAO. My first PT of DAO, I got all the way to the end and was just chatting my peeps up right before the end and suddenly there's all this stuff that I didn't hear because I didn't make sure to talk to them enough at camp during the rest of the game. So it was a whole lot of stuff RIGHT AT THE END, like Sten telling me about his sword, Wynn telling me to dump Alistair, etc, and of course by that time it was too late.
I know it was just the way I was playing (being a n00b at the game), but you shouldn't have to already know better to be able to play the game and have your relationships with your companions progress at a more logical pace.
That being said, it just means I can see why they did it the way they did. For pacing.   Also so things don't go too fast? My first time through ME2 I flirted Garrus up to the "ok baby let's do this thing!" conversation and... there was a lot of game left after that XD;; So it was odd not having anything else to say to him after that.

[Ryzaki]

edit: not the place for ME dicussion. 

Nevermind. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juin 2011 - 05:44 .

[kromify]

happens all the time

[beckaliz]

I just think that romancing Anders and those conversations suffer more from the alternate pacing style than the other relationships. The romance with FENRIS on the other hand suffers more from the 3-year-gap narrative. I haven't romanced anyone else to have an opinion about them.

@Queen-of-Stuff  I don't know if I'd say I necessarily miss him? ... I think it's sad what happened to him. He was trying to help his friend and it backfired horribly. (Merging with spirits/demons = FAIL.) But the tragedy and angst that came from it are very pleasing to me. I love tormenting characters. I'm a sadistic writer. :x I can't stand too much sap. Puts me into a diabetic literary coma.

Alistair was enough of a goofball to offset that for me though, surprisingly.

Modifié par beckaliz, 11 juin 2011 - 06:12 .

[cleosilver]

kromify wrote...

yeah; he's been living there for 3 years but hawke only gives him the key then? something went wrong... why not give it to him, say, 3 years ago?

I generaly figure that Hawke gave him the key to the front door shortly after he moved in. Since the key to the cellar entrance was in the hands of Hawke's sibling for their personal quest I figure Hawke finally got around to sorting through and clearing out the boxes of Carver/Bethany's stuff at the start of Act 3 and found the cellar key then.

[ipgd]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

So, I'm curious. Probably been asked before, but I'm gonna ask again. Do you miss Anders as he was in Awakenings? Or do you think this was a change for the better?

Anders's character in Awakening informs the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. It provides a frame of reference for just how much better off he was before he merged with Justice.

I don't see it as a "change" so much as a progression forward in a continuum of development. Who he was in Awakening is still critical to his character, and his role in DA2 does not erase that.

I don't have any particular desire to see him regress in that manner. I think it would defeat the point of his arc.

[SurelyForth]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

So, I'm curious. Probably been asked before, but I'm gonna ask again. Do you miss Anders as he was in Awakenings? Or do you think this was a change for the better?

I miss Awakening Anders. A lot. Before DA2, he was my favorite DA character, hands down. I always saw the fire when he spoke of the Circle and the templars, but I also saw someone resilient, compassionate and confident in himself. Also, his cheesy sense of humor just worked for me on every level and I have a soft spot for adorable ****s, so...that, too. 

But I also adore DA2 Anders, because of his passion and his selflessness. I would not have minded even more levity in Act 1 (or maybe I just wish Howden had slightly better comedic timing, because some of his comedy lines in Act 1 fall short for me), but I adore his character, even if it's heartbreaking that the apostate that I always wanted to have a happy ending to his story seems so resistent to them now. 

And what ipgd says. The progression and the tragedy of who he was and who he becomes is very much why he still he owns my brain, and probably will long after most people stop caring about Dragon Age at all.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 juin 2011 - 06:28 .

[kromify]

SurelyForth wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

So, I'm curious. Probably been asked before, but I'm gonna ask again. Do you miss Anders as he was in Awakenings? Or do you think this was a change for the better?

I miss Awakening Anders. A lot. Before DA2, he was my favorite DA character, hands down. I always saw the fire when he spoke of the Circle and the templars, but I also saw someone resilient, compassionate and confident in himself. Also, his cheesy sense of humor just worked for me on every level and I have a soft spot for adorable ****s, so...that, too. 

the good stuff was always there... he just needed a little prodding in the right direction. maybe justice wasn't necessary for this; he could easily have been influenced by another strong-minded apostate.
i always wondered why bioware made the spirit we recruit one of justice - it seemed a strange virtue to pick. then da2 came out 

[ademska]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

So, I'm curious. Probably been asked before, but I'm gonna ask again. Do you miss Anders as he was in Awakenings? Or do you think this was a change for the better?

binary "better" and "worse" terms can't really apply to the situation if you have any appreciation for the narrative effort of da2!anders at all. like ipgd said, he presents a frame of reference with which to view the ultimate tragedy of the character, because they're the same person.

that said, a!anders is a giant manchild (whom i completely love, don't misunderstand), and while the eventual outcome of Janders is undeniable pretty awful insofar as it sucks to be him, if we're talking about strength of character not on a narrative level, i actually think giving anders a sense of purpose is not the worst thing that could have happened to him.

[ademska]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

ademska wrote...


binary "better" and "worse" terms
can't really apply to the situation if you have any appreciation for the
narrative effort of da2!anders at all. like ipgd said, he presents a
frame of reference with which to view the ultimate tragedy of the
character, because they're the same person.

Forgive me then, if f that's the way I came off, for this was not my intention at all. It was an innocent question, perhaps a little clumsily worded.

oh, i certainly didn't mean to imply it was a dumb question, tho my words sort of bely that i guess. what i was getting at is that my answer was two-pronged.

on one hand, from the narrative perspective, the question doesn't apply

on the other hand, from a personal perspective, i think anders needed direction and purpose in his life that wasn't just awesome--if deflecting--jokes and skedaddling from templars. justice was ultimately... less than ideal, for all the reasons everyone's stated, but i think if anders were my real-life friend i would support him at least growing up a bit and actually dealing with his obvious big barrel o' issues

[highcastle]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

So, I'm curious. Probably been asked before, but I'm gonna ask again. Do you miss Anders as he was in Awakenings? Or do you think this was a change for the better?

I judge him as one single character (despite his "extra passenger"). When I say I like Anders, I mean all of him, everything we see of him in both games. This being said, I think he's a more compelling character in DA2, but the full weight of his tragedy could not be felt without experiencing DAA. I know there are people (not many on this thread) who complain that Anders went from being fun and joking to "emo" and dark. First of all, there's as much darkness in Awakening!Anders as there is in DA2!Anders. He just hides it a bit more with a caustic sense of humor.

Second, it shows a great deal of growth to have a character who repressed so much of his own suffering suddenly confront it and allow it to change him. Whether you think it's a change for the better or the worse is up to you. Originally I looked at it as a tragedy: Anders sacrificed large chunks of himself to jenga the Chantry. Now, though, I'm starting to look at it as a positive growth. Anders confronted the organization that had oppressed and tortured him in his earlier years, and he not only struck a tremendous blow against them, but he (at least in my playthrough) lived through the experience. This Anders may finally be able to heal.

Wow...I'm uncharacteristically optimistic tonight, guys. It must be the drugs the doctors put me on.

[highcastle]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

highcastle wrote...


Wow...I'm uncharacteristically optimistic tonight, guys. It must be the drugs the doctors put me on.

And you're keeping all the good stuff to yourself? Share some with the rest of us!

I don't know how much antibiotics count as the "good stuff," but hey, I'm feeling pretty good!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
It's surprising, really: it took a while for me to get Awakenings, and from what I heard, Anders seemed the kind of cheeky arrogant that I would find supremely annoying. And yet, he became my favorite character. CulturalGeekGirl had a marvelous rant about the progression that I won't dig up without her permission.

Feel free to dig up any of my rants at any point, that's what they're there for. I always feel terribly egotistical if I dig something old of mine up, but if someone else does it, it's great.

I loved Awakenings Anders. I wanted to take him away on a pirate ship to Rivain so badly, and we could open up a pub called Sparklefingers and Zev could move in with us and neither of them would have to be afraid anymore. DA:A Anders with his solitary and his continuous recapture and the threat of death hanging over him was dramatic enough for me. I miss him, and I wish I could have saved a version of him to go off and do that. I've read a few fics written before DA:2 that are sort of like that. I kind of wish we could have had a romance with him in that form, but I understand why we couldn't... people wouldn't romance him in DA2 because it would feel like he was cheating on their Warden.

Aside: Anders is the first character I've ever voluntarily read fic for. Seriously, before now I've only ever read fic when a friend of mine made me. I've collected doujin, but that's not the same thing (and even that was pretty much just yonkoma for comedy series that I liked.) Part of what makes me feel ok about reading Anders fic is the fact that he's already written by two authors. He belongs to the world, now, like Batman. Ahem, anyway, back to my point!

I don't think Anders would have ever been able to do what JAnders does in DA2 without justice. He might have tried, but the first time something went too wrong he'd pack up shop and move on to the next town to start again. He also wouldn't... couldn't... hurt people to get his point across. Not without someone like the Commander standing at his back, telling him it was OK. And at this point, violence is necessary, at least on some level. It may be terrible and wrong, but it is necessary. It's easy to choose not to kill a templar when that choice doesn't blaze the face of a hundred mages who committed suicide through your brain. It's easy to keep your hands clean when you don't really care if you get the job done, as long as you made some kind of an effort. And that's the main thing he gave up... the luxury of clean hands. The luxury of "it's the thought that counts." I miss the DA:A feelings of something rare and awesome that I could maybe just manage to save before the world finally crushed it, but I also love the DA2 idea of someone who is in the process of burning himself up, and you can give him his only solace, a little glimpse of happiness. It's less what I want, but it's more powerful.

I do kind of miss DA:A Anders' voice. Not that I don't love his DA2 voice, but it would have been interesting to hear all these lines in his original voice. Would have provided a nice continuity. But ah well, you can't have everything.