Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*
highcastle wrote...
I don't know how much antibiotics count as the "good stuff," but hey, I'm feeling pretty good!
Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
highcastle wrote...
I don't know how much antibiotics count as the "good stuff," but hey, I'm feeling pretty good!
... Antibiotics?
Aw. And here I was getting all excited and everything. I suppose I'll have to put all of my hippie gear back in place and resort to simply burrowing my face in my kitten's fur.
Modifié par highcastle, 11 juin 2011 - 08:12 .
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*
highcastle wrote...
Kittens are far superior to drugs. Anders would agree.
http://yamisnuffles....-Mage-208703612
by Yami, of course.
CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Feel free to dig up any of my
rants at any point, that's what they're there for. I always feel
terribly egotistical if I dig something old of mine up, but if someone
else does it, it's great.
CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
In terms of character development, I think it was one of the most stunning and revelatory
plot developments in any RPG I've ever seen.
In DA:A we have snarky, charming Anders who wants nothing more than some small
measure of freedom. Basic rights, like the ability to choose what food he eats
and to maybe find a girl to settle down with. He's even willing to take up the
mantle of the grey wardens to do it, content to just appreciate the smell of
pies and freedom between darkspawn hunts. Then, during the bridging short
story, you learn that the Chantry wouldn't even let Anders have THAT much
freedom, saddling him with a Templar warden to harass and control him (I'm
betting that jerk is the one who made him give away his cat.) Finally, he gets
tired of waiting for the Templars to come up with a new reason to execute him,
and joins with Justice, with the hope of freeing future mages from the same
torment.
I think that Anders knew that joining with Justice would give him the will to
fight back, rather than just running. I think he had finally realized that
running wasn't ever going to actually work. Even allowing himself to be
pressed into Warden service and tainted by darkspawn nightmares forever had
only won him a few short months of friendship and freedom before the Templars
arranged to have him crushed under their heel again. I think Anders realized he
didn't have the strength to do anything but run, and that he needed Justice to
do more than that... DA:A Anders was a lover, not a fighter.
Now, even inhabiting a corpse, Justice had access to some of its memories, the
desires of its old life. Inhabiting Anders, Justice is hit full force with
decades of memories of injustice. Anders had been able to view these memories
through a veil of humor, selfishness, stubbornness and self-preservation, which
had kept him remarkably well-adjusted for someone submitted to that much
psychological torment. Justice has no such filters; he's hit with the
wrong-ness of everything that has happened to Anders full force, and there is
only one way to respond: with Vengeance.
I think that Anders knew that merging with Justice would allow him to fight
back, but he didn't realize that it would prevent him from using any of his
coping mechanisms that allowed him to maintain some kind of psychological
distance from everything that had happened to him. His ironic detachment had
prevented him from ever having to deal with the fact that he'd never have a
family, never fall in love, never be able to just live, but as Justice/Anders he
was incapable of ever forgetting it, incapable of laughing it away with vain
hopes and daydreams of his next escape. Every waking moment, he's confronted
with the reality of it, the injustice of it.
Even then, he tries to exercise self-control, maintaining some of his humanity
even with Justice's constant pressure to take more direct action. Initially he
restricts himself to healing people, helping mages to escape, and distributing
pro-mage literature. All the while, Justice is still seeing and experiencing
all the injustice Anders suffers, and obsessing over it. After seven years of
trying every possible peaceful solution, nothing has improved. Even the Anders
part of the personality realizes that the small, reasonable efforts mean
nothing: nothing will ever change for mages as long as the Chantry is preaching
that mages are proof of the Maker's hate, and no amount of clinics or
manifestos are going to ever change that.
Friended Anders admits this to Justice, and agrees that they have to do
something desperate, drastic. He's been living the lie that there is another
way, that he is something other than the cause of mages, but now he has to
admit that he can't fight against it anymore. The inability to ignore injustice
against mages has stripped away all his defenses, and he finally has to admit
that all his reasonable attempts have accomplished nothing. He has a choice -
accept that all mages forever are doomed to be denied a normal life, love, and
happiness because peaceful change will not and cannot work... or take the only
action he can see that might give future mages a chance at everything he has
been denied. With a spirit of Justice inside you, this choice isn't a choice at
all. There is only one way to proceed, and the Chantry goes up.
Rivaled Anders has been molded to believe that his inability to ignore
injustice is a weakness, a failing, and a curse. He now believes that it would
have been better if he had never joined with Justice, never left the Wardens,
maybe never even left the tower. He is walking evidence of the weakness of
Mages, proof positive that they do not deserve the freedom he has always hoped
for. Here, he is at war with himself, with the Justice-focused part determined
to get vengeance for everything that has been done to mages, while the
Anders-focused part believes that, by becoming an abomination, he may have
retroactively justified all that he has suffered. There is nothing left for him
to do but die. Justice wins the battle long enough to plant and set off the
bomb, and the Chantry goes up.
Now, no matter which way he has played so far, the player has the final choice.
He can choose the cause of mages or the cause of the templars, and he can kill
or spare Anders. There is a reason you have to choose your side before you pull
out the knife... so Anders can see the results of what he has done.
At this point he has lost any illusion that he has an existence beyond the
cause of mages. If you kill him, justice is done and he both pays for his crime
and dies a martyr. If you spare him and make him fight against the mages, the
part of him that believes he is cursed and weak takes over, and he cooperates
with you, knowing he must die soon because he cannot control the monster inside
of him. If you spare him and let him join you to fight the templars, you allow
him to scrabble together some hope that he may someday have an existence beyond
the cause, that this was all worth it.
It's incredibly powerful, and the fact that there are all these different
endings, with small changes giving Anders' story a profoundly different
conclusion... it's great storytelling, and it actually serves as a perfect
example of a situation where the narrative capabilities of games are greater
than the narrative capabilities of other media. In any other telling of the
story, we would only see one of these ends, and could only guess at the others.
Here, we can see all the possibilities, and shape which one becomes reality.
Of course, if you don't care about his cause, or about Anders, I can see how it
would be maddening.
Modifié par Queen-Of-Stuff, 11 juin 2011 - 08:23 .
Hmm, that's one of the things that kicks my sympathy gland into overdrive. The comedy lines do fall flat. He's trying to be funny and it isn't working. Not well, anyway. He is broken and nothing in the world can fix it. YMMV, but I think it's brilliant that the comedic timing isn't as good as it was in Awakenings. I don't know whether this happened by design or by chance, but it definitely works for me.SurelyForth wrote...
... I would not have minded even more levity in Act 1 (or maybe I just wish Howden had slightly better comedic timing, because some of his comedy lines in Act 1 fall short for me)...
highcastle wrote...
Kittens are far superior to drugs. Anders would agree.
He's finally stopped being scared of the camera, so I can get a few pictures of him to post.
Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
Awesome. Here it is! Also, do you know you wrote 1 177 words on this rant? Damn, girl, you're on fire.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
In terms of character development, I think it was one of the most stunning and revelatory plot developments in any RPG I've ever seen.
In DA:A we have snarky, charming Anders who wants nothing more than some small measure of freedom. Basic rights, like the ability to choose what food he eats and to maybe find a girl to settle down with. He's even willing to take up the mantle of the grey wardens to do it, content to just appreciate the smell of pies and freedom between darkspawn hunts. Then, during the bridging short story, you learn that the Chantry wouldn't even let Anders have THAT much freedom, saddling him with a Templar warden to harass and control him (I'm betting that jerk is the one who made him give away his cat.) Finally, he gets tired of waiting for the Templars to come up with a new reason to execute him,and joins with Justice, with the hope of freeing future mages from the same torment.
I think that Anders knew that joining with Justice would give him the will to fight back, rather than just running. I think he had finally realized that running wasn't ever going to actually work. Even allowing himself to be pressed into Warden service and tainted by darkspawn nightmares forever had only won him a few short months of friendship and freedom before the Templars arranged to have him crushed under their heel again. I think Anders realized he didn't have the strength to do anything but run, and that he needed Justice to do more than that... DA:A Anders was a lover, not a fighter.
Now, even inhabiting a corpse, Justice had access to some of its memories, the desires of its old life. Inhabiting Anders, Justice is hit full force with decades of memories of injustice. Anders had been able to view these memories through a veil of humor, selfishness, stubbornness and self-preservation, which had kept him remarkably well-adjusted for someone submitted to that much psychological torment. Justice has no such filters; he's hit with the wrong-ness of everything that has happened to Anders full force, and there is only one way to respond: with Vengeance.
I think that Anders knew that merging with Justice would allow him to fight back, but he didn't realize that it would prevent him from using any of his coping mechanisms that allowed him to maintain some kind of psychological distance from everything that had happened to him. His ironic detachment had prevented him from ever having to deal with the fact that he'd never have a family, never fall in love, never be able to just live, but as Justice/Anders he was incapable of ever forgetting it, incapable of laughing it away with vain hopes and daydreams of his next escape. Every waking moment, he's confronted with the reality of it, the injustice of it.
Even then, he tries to exercise self-control, maintaining some of his humanity even with Justice's constant pressure to take more direct action. Initially he restricts himself to healing people, helping mages to escape, and distributing pro-mage literature. All the while, Justice is still seeing and experiencing all the injustice Anders suffers, and obsessing over it. After seven years of trying every possible peaceful solution, nothing has improved. Even the Anders part of the personality realizes that the small, reasonable efforts mean nothing: nothing will ever change for mages as long as the Chantry is preaching that mages are proof of the Maker's hate, and no amount of clinics or manifestos are going to ever change that.
Friended Anders admits this to Justice, and agrees that they have to do something desperate, drastic. He's been living the lie that there is another way, that he is something other than the cause of mages, but now he has to admit that he can't fight against it anymore. The inability to ignore injustice against mages has stripped away all his defenses, and he finally has to admit that all his reasonable attempts have accomplished nothing. He has a choice - accept that all mages forever are doomed to be denied a normal life, love, and happiness because peaceful change will not and cannot work... or take the only action he can see that might give future mages a chance at everything he has been denied. With a spirit of Justice inside you, this choice isn't a choice at all. There is only one way to proceed, and the Chantry goes up.
Rivaled Anders has been molded to believe that his inability to ignore injustice is a weakness, a failing, and a curse. He now believes that it would have been better if he had never joined with Justice, never left the Wardens, maybe never even left the tower. He is walking evidence of the weakness of Mages, proof positive that they do not deserve the freedom he has always hoped for. Here, he is at war with himself, with the Justice-focused part determined to get vengeance for everything that has been done to mages, while the Anders-focused part believes that, by becoming an abomination, he may have retroactively justified all that he has suffered. There is nothing left for him to do but die. Justice wins the battle long enough to plant and set off the bomb, and the Chantry goes up.
Now, no matter which way he has played so far, the player has the final choice. He can choose the cause of mages or the cause of the templars, and he can kill or spare Anders. There is a reason you have to choose your side before you pull out the knife... so Anders can see the results of what he has done.
At this point he has lost any illusion that he has an existence beyond the cause of mages. If you kill him, justice is done and he both pays for his crime and dies a martyr. If you spare him and make him fight against the mages, the part of him that believes he is cursed and weak takes over, and he cooperates with you, knowing he must die soon because he cannot control the monster inside of him. If you spare him and let him join you to fight the templars, you allow him to scrabble together some hope that he may someday have an existence beyond the cause, that this was all worth it.
It's incredibly powerful, and the fact that there are all these different endings, with small changes giving Anders' story a profoundly different conclusion... it's great storytelling, and it actually serves as a perfect example of a situation where the narrative capabilities of games are greater than the narrative capabilities of other media. In any other telling of the story, we would only see one of these ends, and could only guess at the others. Here, we can see all the possibilities, and shape which one becomes reality.
Of course, if you don't care about his cause, or about Anders, I can see how it would be maddening.
Couldn't have put it better.highcastle wrote...
I judge him as one single character (despite his "extra passenger"). When I say I like Anders, I mean all of him, everything we see of him in both games. This being said, I think he's a more compelling character in DA2, but the full weight of his tragedy could not be felt without experiencing DAA. I know there are people (not many on this thread) who complain that Anders went from being fun and joking to "emo" and dark. First of all, there's as much darkness in Awakening!Anders as there is in DA2!Anders. He just hides it a bit more with a caustic sense of humor.
Second, it shows a great deal of growth to have a character who repressed so much of his own suffering suddenly confront it and allow it to change him. Whether you think it's a change for the better or the worse is up to you. Originally I looked at it as a tragedy: Anders sacrificed large chunks of himself to jenga the Chantry. Now, though, I'm starting to look at it as a positive growth. Anders confronted the organization that had oppressed and tortured him in his earlier years, and he not only struck a tremendous blow against them, but he (at least in my playthrough) lived through the experience. This Anders may finally be able to heal.
Arquen wrote...
You know what I always wondered was who's idea it was to merge in the first place. I mean we always think about Anders helping out Justice, but Justice in Awakenings seems so put off by the thought of transferring bodies.
I wonder what happened to make them come to this kind of decision. Also, was Justice already so consumed by his desires that he was afraid of returning to the Fade? Why was the merger necessary in the first place?
So I'm guessing that at some point justice saw what Rolan was doing to Anders, or heard Anders talk about it and just... decided. Decided he had to help him, and made the offer. Because... injustice.Suddenly it comes back to me. Justice's voice, my voice, speaking through the rotting face of the body he once claimed. "It is time. You have shown me an injustice greater than any I have faced. Do you have the courage to accept my aid?"
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality. A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities. You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this? Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self? Is it to fix him? Exploit him? Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.
Perhaps... because you love them?
I'm the worst person to ask about this... I'm more Zevran than Anders, when it comes to my history of past relationships, but love isn't about being reasonable or rational. It's about being in god damned bloody love and nobody can take that from you.
Being in love is when all the songs suddenly make sense, and Anders makes so very, very many songs make sense. Most of them sad songs that I could never imagine identifying with. But you bleed just to know you're alive, yeah?
Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality. A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities. You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this? Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self? Is it to fix him? Exploit him? Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.
Perhaps... because you love them?
I'm the worst person to ask about this... I'm more Zevran than Anders, when it comes to my history of past relationships, but love isn't about being reasonable or rational. It's about being in god damned bloody love and nobody can take that from you.
Being in love is when all the songs suddenly make sense, and Anders makes so very, very many songs make sense. Most of them sad songs that I could never imagine identifying with. But you bleed just to know you're alive, yeah?
At least the writers show how that sort of thinking usually pans out.
But, I appreciate the replies from everyone. I was just puzzled at the appeal. I still am, but that's fine. For the record, I agree all the LIs are f'ed up and though I liked Fenris' romance, it walks the line, too. I just have to blink and ignore the three-year timeout or the fact that he's living in a mansion with ten year-old corpses. lol
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*
CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Ooh, it was this one. I'd forgotten about this one. And yes, I do tend to go on. I'm also going to clean up the formatting a bit, because I hate the curse of the Bioware Boards formatting problem.
berelinde wrote...
Hmm, that's one of the things that kicks my sympathy gland into overdrive. The comedy lines doSurelyForth wrote...
... I
would not have minded even more levity in Act 1 (or maybe I just wish
Howden had slightly better comedic timing, because some of his comedy
lines in Act 1 fall short for me)...
fall flat. He's trying to be funny and it isn't working. Not well,
anyway. He is broken and nothing in the world can fix it. YMMV, but
I think it's brilliant that the comedic timing isn't as good as it was
in Awakenings. I don't know whether this happened by design or by
chance, but it definitely works for me.
About the voice, I don't
know. I'm sure that Greg Ellis would have done a fine job with DA2
Anders, but I think I might actually prefer Adam Howden here. His voice
seems more serious, or at least more emotional. It worked.
Amondra wrote...
Good Afternoon everyone. So what's the debate right now, or is all calm for the moment?
See, that's exactly why I like him.Addai67 wrote...
At least the writers show how that sort of thinking usually pans out.
Modifié par ipgd, 11 juin 2011 - 09:07 .
This is so like the stories about why people submit to demon possession that I can't not see it as the same thing. I can have sympathy for it, though less than I sympathize with someone who submits to possession out of pure survival instinct. The fact that he thought about it and made a choice, and that he had options otherwise, makes it less sympathetic. And since I play mages who've been schooled from day one on the dangers of possession, I can't mentally work out how they'd see it as anything less than a really bad thing, especially since Hawke never knew Justice in "the good ol days" and from the minute she meets Anders, he is talking in ominous tones about the spirit.SurelyForth wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
Perhaps this is why I don't get it- because I can never be okay with the Justice merger. I did have a Hawke who ended up at max friendship with him, but only because she was helping mages and as to his personal issues was more like "you don't think this is a good idea, do you? okay, well, I'll go stand over here now" sort of neutral in their conversations.SurelyForth wrote...
See, I think that if you friendmance him you're merely helping him find himself (or helping him find balance with himself and Justice) and he'd be able to survive without Hawke.
See, I understand why he did it. If his short story is to be believed, he was basically backed into a corner by the decisions of his WC to put him under templar guard at all times. The Wardens are supposed to be free from the Chantry, so the fact that he could be opressed even there (and after he'd proven himself a model Warden with the Hero/Orlesian Commander) pretty much convinced him that there was no way for a mage alone to prove his worth.
And his motives for merging were noble, I think. He didn't want mages to just be wild, but he wanted them to have access to training AND their families, he wanted parents to be able to keep their children without fear of imprisonment. It was everything that was taken from him and his mother, and the turn from self-possessed, self-preservation above all else Awakening Anders to the Anders who is willing to sacrifice normalcy (which is pretty all he wants out of life) to take on basically the biggest government-type organization in the known world is pretty impressive.
So he wanted to accomplish something, but he'd need the help. He trusted Justice, who wanted to help, and he sacrificed himself for a cause much larger than himself. He was naive, but I personally admire him for taking that risk, considering.
PS. This is not What I Would Do Or Think In Real Life. In VG World, With Magic And ****...I can handle the crazy and even see that he's not absolutely bat**** under some circumstances. IRL? No.
Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality. A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities. You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.
Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 juin 2011 - 09:11 .
Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Ooh, it was this one. I'd forgotten about this one. And yes, I do tend to go on. I'm also going to clean up the formatting a bit, because I hate the curse of the Bioware Boards formatting problem.
You had forgotten it? I'm not sure whether to find that impressive or terrifying. There's only one thing about DA2 I could see myself working up a rant about, and only because it's an argument that's been made so many times and I'm equally irked every time someone brings it up.berelinde wrote...
Hmm, that's one of the things that kicks my sympathy gland into overdrive. The comedy lines doSurelyForth wrote...
... I
would not have minded even more levity in Act 1 (or maybe I just wish
Howden had slightly better comedic timing, because some of his comedy
lines in Act 1 fall short for me)...
fall flat. He's trying to be funny and it isn't working. Not well,
anyway. He is broken and nothing in the world can fix it. YMMV, but
I think it's brilliant that the comedic timing isn't as good as it was
in Awakenings. I don't know whether this happened by design or by
chance, but it definitely works for me.
About the voice, I don't
know. I'm sure that Greg Ellis would have done a fine job with DA2
Anders, but I think I might actually prefer Adam Howden here. His voice
seems more serious, or at least more emotional. It worked.
Well put. This is exactly how I saw it as well.Amondra wrote...
Good Afternoon everyone. So what's the debate right now, or is all calm for the moment?
I asked whether or not Awakenings Anders was missed and how... uhm, how you view the progression from his old self to his DA2 self. Primarily to kick some life into this thread, because it had gone a little quiet and awkward and I didn't quite like that. And my plan worked! So, do you have any thoughts on the subject?
Zjarcal wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality. A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities. You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.
I guess that depends on whether you think a f*cked up person can or cannot be fixed. You already show an attitude of "that will never work", whereas others may feel that it can be possible to do that (and I've seen cases, rare as they may be).
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 juin 2011 - 09:15 .
I think "becomes a manipulative leech that takes advantage of your status for his personal gain and then ultimately blackmails you into becoming complicit with an act of iconoclasm and murder" is enough, really. Him outright attacking Hawke would lack subtlety.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think we should be reminded that we are not talking about an "ordinary" f*cked up person. But a f*cked up mage with a spirit inside that is becoming something awfully close to a demon. That guy can explode at any second and I think the game should had had Anders accidently lash out on you, like he almost killed Elle. He's not only a danger to Hawke, he's a danger to everyone around him.
Modifié par ipgd, 11 juin 2011 - 09:20 .
ipgd wrote...
I think "becomes a manipulative leech that takes advantage of your status for his personal gain and then ultimately blackmails you into becoming complicit with an act of iconoclasm and murder" is enough, really. Him outright attacking Hawke would lack subtlety.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think we should be reminded that we are not talking about an "ordinary" f*cked up person. But a f*cked up mage with a spirit inside that is becoming something awfully close to a demon. That guy can explode at any second and I think the game should had had Anders accidently lash out on you, like he almost killed Elle. He's not only a danger to Hawke, he's a danger to everyone around him.
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*
Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Meet...Ser Pounce-a-lot!
being at uni i don't have a large place and it would be unfair to get my own pet. back home we have 2 cats and a dog; the cat at the top of the food chain is evil and manipulative and terrorizes the other 2. but in a very amusing way. she purposly sits where the dog wants to go knowing the dog won't go within a 5 ft radius of her, and things like that 
Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality. A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities. You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
Okay... I know I'm trolling, but I have to ask... why would you ("you" as in a reasonably grounded, mature PC) ever consent to be in a relationship with someone like this? Arm's length, okay, but a romantic relationship with someone so codependent and with no sense of self? Is it to fix him? Exploit him? Those are the only two reasons i can come up with, and this is even apart from the whole abomination thing.
Perhaps... because you love them?
I'm the worst person to ask about this... I'm more Zevran than Anders, when it comes to my history of past relationships, but love isn't about being reasonable or rational. It's about being in god damned bloody love and nobody can take that from you.
Being in love is when all the songs suddenly make sense, and Anders makes so very, very many songs make sense. Most of them sad songs that I could never imagine identifying with. But you bleed just to know you're alive, yeah?
At least the writers show how that sort of thinking usually pans out.
But, I appreciate the replies from everyone. I was just puzzled at the appeal. I still am, but that's fine. For the record, I agree all the LIs are f'ed up and though I liked Fenris' romance, it walks the line, too. I just have to blink and ignore the three-year timeout or the fact that he's living in a mansion with ten year-old corpses. lol
Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 juin 2011 - 09:25 .
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