57020 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I have to wonder what kind of normal person would want to get involved with a person like Hawke, anyway.

I know I would want nothing to do with that incompetent imbecile.

[ipgd]

Nivilant wrote...

Vengeance isn't really subtle, so that probably wouldn't matter much.

The romance arc is, though. Part of it is reflecting back and being able to see some of his ostensibly admirable qualities (read: his romance novel trope analogues) in a more negative light by the time it's already too late. If he was just outright physically abusive it would just be easy and a bit hamfisted.

Modifié par ipgd, 11 juin 2011 - 09:27 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality.  A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with  the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities.  You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.

I guess that depends on whether you think a f*cked up person can or cannot be fixed. You already show an attitude of "that will never work", whereas others may feel that it can be possible to do that (and I've seen cases, rare as they may be).

I think we should be reminded that we are not talking about an "ordinary" f*cked up person.  But a f*cked up mage with a spirit inside that is becoming something awfully close to a demon. That guy can explode at any second and I think the game should had had Anders accidently lash out on you, like he almost killed Elle. He's not only a danger to Hawke, he's a danger to everyone around him.

A good point indeed. I'm not sure if there's a real world analogy that could come close to what Anders really is.

Having a moment where he lashes out at you would've been good, especially for the rivalry path. Eh, also on the friend path actually, if only to show you who you're dealing with.

[kromify]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I have to wonder what kind of normal person would want to get involved with a person like Hawke, anyway. She somehow manages to find herself knee-deep in the **** of every suspect character's business in the city as well as personally attracting the ire of a hundred and fifty thousand gangs of bat**** crazy Kirkwallers who brutally savages anyone and everyone with the audacity of taking a stroll on the beach or walking outside their home after dark. Who bothers worrying about the messed-up-ness about anyone who might walk into your love-life when you might easily end up in a ditch with ten arrows sticking out your back at any moment?

but everyone's messed up in krikwall. if sanity was a requirement there would be no babies <_<

[ademska]

Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality.  A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with  the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities.  You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.

once again you have the caveat of 'grown-up relationship' and the implication that we're looking for success, when a lot of the point is that it's a doomed tragedy and a deconstruction of romance stories

like, absolute best case scenario, hawke is equally revolutionary/crazy and they go fight wars and blow stuff up and have a bad romance (ra ra ah ah ah) together.  this is not a particularly happy ending, and it's not supposed to be.

the appeal isn't in some illusion of eternal idyllic happiness for anders, it's in the exact opposite.

Modifié par ademska, 11 juin 2011 - 09:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
Having a moment where he lashes out at you would've been good, especially for the rivalry path. Eh, also on the friend path actually, if only to show you who you're dealing with.

Especially on the friendship path.  I've read about too many embellishments of that path.

[kromify]

i adore bad romance. take it how you will  

[Amondra]

ademska wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality.  A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with  the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities.  You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.

once again you have the caveat of 'grown-up relationship' and the implication that we're looking for success, when a lot of the point is that it's a doomed tragedy and a deconstruction of romance stories

like, absolute best case scenario, hawke is equally revolutionary/crazy and they go fight wars and blow stuff up and have a bad romance (ra ra ah ah ah) together.  this is not a particularly happy ending, and it's not supposed to be.

the appeal isn't in some illusion of eternal idyllic happiness for anders, it's in the exact opposite.

I love you for that

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
Oh, KoP You could not have made your opinion on Hawke as a character clearer if you had written a sign saying "HAWKE SUCKS" and then beaten every forum member over the head with it.

And Xanatos is back again, I see. He suits you

Only the worthy are admitted on my sig, as Zjarcal can tell you.
EDIT: but you were talking about signs and not sigs. Too much effort involved for little

And thanks!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 juin 2011 - 09:34 .

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except some apparently approve.

I think you are misinterpreting, at least in the kind of "approve" I think you mean.

Or they don't like that Anders didn't tell them, because if he did, they would have totally helped him. I don't think they grasp what Anders has become.

That's sort of a different matter related to mages/chantry/endsjustifythemeans politics. The acknowledgment of the manipulativeness of his actions is still there.

[kromify]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

kromify wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I have to wonder what kind of normal person would want to get involved with a person like Hawke, anyway. She somehow manages to find herself knee-deep in the **** of every suspect character's business in the city as well as personally attracting the ire of a hundred and fifty thousand gangs of bat**** crazy Kirkwallers who brutally savages anyone and everyone with the audacity of taking a stroll on the beach or walking outside their home after dark. Who bothers worrying about the messed-up-ness about anyone who might walk into your love-life when you might easily end up in a ditch with ten arrows sticking out your back at any moment?

but everyone's messed up in krikwall. if sanity was a requirement there would be no babies <_<

And I find myself unable to argue with this point

it's irrefutable 

[Addai]

ademska wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality.  A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with  the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities.  You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.

once again you have the caveat of 'grown-up relationship' and the implication that we're looking for success, when a lot of the point is that it's a doomed tragedy and a deconstruction of romance stories

like, absolute best case scenario, hawke is equally revolutionary/crazy and they go fight wars and blow stuff up and have a bad romance (ra ra ah ah ah) together.  this is not a particularly happy ending, and it's not supposed to be.

the appeal isn't in some illusion of eternal idyllic happiness for anders, it's in the exact opposite.

Okay, I can accept that.  That sort of over-the-top melodrama doesn't do it for me, that's all.

[ademska]

Addai67 wrote...

ademska wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality.  A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with  the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities.  You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.

once again you have the caveat of 'grown-up relationship' and the implication that we're looking for success, when a lot of the point is that it's a doomed tragedy and a deconstruction of romance stories

like, absolute best case scenario, hawke is equally revolutionary/crazy and they go fight wars and blow stuff up and have a bad romance (ra ra ah ah ah) together.  this is not a particularly happy ending, and it's not supposed to be.

the appeal isn't in some illusion of eternal idyllic happiness for anders, it's in the exact opposite.

Okay, I can accept that.  That sort of over-the-top melodrama doesn't do it for me, that's all.

haha, fair enough

i however like to roll around and wallow in it and give myself melodrama mudbaths

[ipgd]

Addai67 wrote...

Okay, I can accept that.  That sort of over-the-top melodrama doesn't do it for me, that's all.

The melodrama is sort of purposefully ironic. The entire thing is basically a takedown of romance novel character tropes.

[BlueMew]

Addai67 wrote...
The reason I stressed "grown up relationships" is because to my ears this is a teenage mentality.  A grown up should know that you do not get romantically involved with  the unemployed drug addict (or whatever RL correlation for an unstable guy in deep sh*t you'd like to draw) simply because he has redeeming qualities.  You're not going to fix him, and chances are good he's going to drag you down with him.

It might be 'inefficient' or hardly productive or Hawke-like incompetent, as Phoenix might put it, or not a good use of the gene pool, but dismissing it as 'immature' or 'teenage mentality' and putting a mindset that is simply different on a higher plan by saying 'those who not agree have failed to grow up' sounds way too easy for me.

ademska wrote...
once again you have the caveat of 'grown-up relationship' and the implication that we're looking for success, when a lot of the point is that it's a doomed tragedy and a deconstruction of romance stories

like, absolute best case scenario, hawke is equally revolutionary/crazy and they go fight wars and blow stuff up and have a bad romance (ra ra ah ah ah) together.  this is not a particularly happy ending, and it's not supposed to be.

the appeal isn't in some illusion of eternal idyllic happiness for anders, it's in the exact opposite.

Hm, in my book "is not supposed to be" is treading on tricky ground. 

[SurelyForth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think we should be reminded that we are not talking about an "ordinary" f*cked up person.  But a f*cked up mage with a spirit inside that is becoming something awfully close to a demon. That guy can explode at any second and I think the game should had had Anders accidently lash out on you, like he almost killed Elle. He's not only a danger to Hawke, he's a danger to everyone around him.

I think "becomes a manipulative leech that takes advantage of your status for his personal gain and then ultimately blackmails you into becoming complicit with an act of iconoclasm and murder" is enough, really. Him outright attacking Hawke would lack subtlety.

Except some apparently approve. Or they don't like that Anders didn't tell them, because if he did, they would have totally helped him. I don't think they grasp what Anders has become.

I, personally, don't see Anders as being manipulative until Act 3. Him wanting to move in is pretty much the anti big deal since, like I said before, my Hawke would probably let any of her friends stay over whenever they wanted. They'd been close friends for over three years and I think it's pretty clear that he loves Hawke. The timing sucks, but I think that has more to do with condensing it into one cutscene then showing Anders as being an opportunist.

And I think agreeing with what he does is a valid point of view given the circumstances of the game. With the Exalted March and the Right of Annulment both hanging over the city, something needed to be done. Without the context of the game, it would be horrific and nothing I'd agree with ever. But in the context of the game, with the information we're given (namely that the situation is growing so bad that templars and mages are working together to overthrow Meredith, the Divine is unhappy with the situation and Elthina is refusing to take even small steps to alleviate the damage)...Kirkwall was never going to make it out of the situation unscathed. 

From my perspective, the Right of Annulment and an Exalted March are no more humane than what Anders does. As a matter of fact, until we get hard numbers on how many people died in the Chantry explosion, my guess is that there were far fewer innocents killed than would be in an Exalted March. Doesn't Leliana indicate that the Justinia wouldn't hesitate to raze Kirkwall? 

Also, and this is so very petty, but how is what Anders does to Hawke in Act 3 that much different from what Morrigan does to the Warden? She uses his/her kindness to kill Flemeth/get her Grimoire and then manipulates and/or emotionally blackmails him/her to do something that has the potential to be pretty ****ing terrible for  the world in the long run. And, if the Warden says no, she bails at the most crucial point of the whole campaign. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I am also not willing to admit that melodrama is the only possible result. So I suppose I am exactly the kind of person KoP loves to hate.

Yes, Anders is crazy. But I think that crazy can be fixable. Yes, Anders is a monster. But I think that "monster" is a relative term. Yes, the road ahead isn't going to be sunshine and roses, but what road is? There isn't objectively happy and sad. There isn't objectively good and bad. There's just life.

Yes, there isn't going to be a happy ending.

There are no happy endings, because nothing ends.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Only the worthy are admitted on my sig, as Zjarcal can tell you.
EDIT: but you were talking about signs and not sigs. Too much effort involved for little

And thanks!

Do not think I will forget the time when you were a pony, though.

And wait just a minute. Your sig has no room for Anora? I vehemently disapprove. A lot.

Well Bhelen is not there either, I can't put everyone I like!

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

A good point indeed. I'm not sure if there's a real world analogy that could come close to what Anders really is.

Having a moment where he lashes out at you would've been good, especially for the rivalry path. Eh, also on the friend path actually, if only to show you who you're dealing with.

Well in almost your first conversation with him he implies that he's about to lose control of himself and decapitate you, so...

[ipgd]

SurelyForth wrote...

Also, and this is so very petty, but how is what Anders does to Hawke in Act 3 that much different from what Morrigan does to the Warden? She uses his/her kindness to kill Flemeth/get her Grimoire and then manipulates and/or emotionally blackmails him/her to do something that has the potential to be pretty ****ing terrible for  the world in the long run. And, if the Warden says no, she bails at the most crucial point of the whole campaign.

It's not. Really, Morrigan's romance can easily be interpreted as her purposefully manipulating the Warden into having a romantic relationship with her in order to ensure he'll go through with the Dark Ritual (and it backfiring when she develops actual feelings later, yada yada).

Which is also why I like Morrigan's romance.


I'd agree Anders doesn't start out as an "opportunist" or is dishonest about his feelings, but he does end up taking advantage of Hawke later on. He can still genuinely care for Hawke and do so, certainly.

Modifié par ipgd, 11 juin 2011 - 09:51 .

[kromify]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I am also not willing to admit that melodrama is the only possible result. So I suppose I am exactly the kind of person KoP loves to hate.

Yes, Anders is crazy. But I think that crazy can be fixable. Yes, Anders is a monster. But I think that "monster" is a relative term. Yes, the road ahead isn't going to be sunshine and roses, but what road is? There isn't objectively happy and sad. There isn't objectively good and bad. There's just life.

Yes, there isn't going to be a happy ending.

There are no happy endings, because nothing ends.

i like that the crazy isn't so fixable. it's much more real that way. and we can always hope that it can be alleviated after the boom on the friendmance path.

i don't think of anders as a monster - but that's a semantic debate, nothing more. 

[kromify]

who hasn't ever manipulated in their lives?
he avoided it until he was backed into a corner. it's bad, and he should have found another route, but it's not easy to think under pressure or handle people correctly