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[ipgd]

Collider wrote...

What else could it be, though? Off the top of my head, I can only see it as being there to appeal to female players, an oversight, or that Anders thinks that males are generally in need of less protection. I'm sure there are other possible reasons, but it seems likely to be one of those or a combination.

The only things I can think of:

a) The "appeal" to female players
An assumption that male players would be unfamiliar with the kind of tropes evoked by his behavior, which is a sort of metawank extrapolation of a, but this is stretching the limits of even my overanalyses because of how little attention is afforded to it
c) The emasculation thing (which I doubt, for reasons others have stated)
d) Just a character trait (which I doubt, because his otherwise pan approach to sex and gender seems somewhat at odds with treating men and women differently in the way he does, and it's never lampshaded in such a way that I can assume this is the point of it)

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Since when women find that kind of stuff appealing?

Since he was a romance novel pastiche.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I love Xanatos. I respect TiM. I pity Loghain. I can't imagine why one would put him in the same category as the other two. The first two had many marvelous plans that worked and were fully formed. The latter had a marvelous, fully formed plan that was so fundamentally stupid it might have lost his country to the blight if he had succeeded completely.

For me, a stupid gamble that works is a million times better than an elaborate plan that fails.

I don't know who compared Loghain to Xanatos, I certainly did not.

Xanatos doesn't have stupid gambles. He's all about multi layered plans and  contingencies. And he never risks everything, he's always in a position where he can learn from what happens. In other words, he never crossed the line of no return.

You admire men who stand on the edge of the cliff pushing others off until they can figure out empirically how it's done. But sometimes you can't. Sometimes there's nothing for it but to plummet blind, or be left behind by history.

And Anders should be left behind to be forgotten by history. There is nothing of him worth remembering (that wouldn't be misinformation) and I see him as the ultimate representation of mage weakness (and Orsino, of mage lunacy).

We are talking here about something that involves the lives of hundreds, thousands and hundreds of thousands. I'd much rather have the mentally unstable know their place, either as tools or in a grave (if there is no facilities that can help them).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 juin 2011 - 11:30 .

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...

 Wow, that's something I hadn't noticed, does he really say more of that stuff to a female Hawke? I guess actually I haven't romanced Anders as a female yet.  And my Aniselle is friends with him but she turned him down in Act 1 during one of the early flirt convos.

But as a male, Anders STILL says, "If your door is open I'll come to you tonight. If not, I'll know you finally took my warning seriously." Or something like that. And my Correm is like "HAHAHHA ok, I'm a big boy, you're such an adorable little freedom fighter, I don't care".

that's literally the only time anders is like I MIGHT HURT YOU if you romance him as a male.  you know all those adorable little mutual flirting bits, like where he calls you scruffy and good-hearted and such? comparable conversations happen as female hawke, but they're always followed by "oh **** no we can't do this i will hurt you".  needless to say, i was a bit shocked on my female playthrough, as i romanced him as a guy first

the demographic for going same-sex male on a playthrough isn't particularly skewed toward men, which is another reason i can't completely **** at the writers for it.  it leaves me at a loss.

eta: tho on reflection i suppose it's probable that the writers thought that the inherent difference in dynamic depending on gender justified that kind of awful crap.

Modifié par ademska, 11 juin 2011 - 11:33 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

SurelyForth wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I've thought of this as well, and often wondered why this is. Perhaps this would be seen as emasculating/belittling the male character? Double standards and all.

I want to metawank about it, but the only conclusion I can realistically come to is that someone thought the "NO GO AWAY I'LL HURT YOU" **** would be specifically appealing to women and not men. Thankfully, this only happens in Act I.

Yeah, it plays into that Edward Cullen wanting Bella but staying away for her. own. good. Harf.

I just skip flirting with him in Act 1 completely now and instead getting Justice being all indignant that Hawke calls him creepy. It's pretty awesome, and I just pretend that they have normal, non-insulting flirtations at other times.

I think/hope that it's more what Queen-Of-Stuff implies than the pandering to Twilight thing. I am one of those women who is completely disgusted by anything remotely Twilight related... and Anders' whole thing doesn't strike me as having the same tenor to it... mostly becasue Edward's warnings are basically bull****, while Anders are legitimately sincere. If anything, it's undercutting that horrible meme... because at the end of Twilight, Edward has made Bella an awesome all-powerful super mom who can do whatever she wants and has a perfect life... whereas at the end of Act 3 Anders has hurt Hawke, in more ways than one, no matter how you play it .

If anything, I think it's that Anders thinks women are more likely to heed that kind of warning than men, probably through experience. I know a lot of girls in the Fenris thread say exactly that... that they listened to his warnings and stayed away as a result. I don't imagine it would have the same effect on dudes, in general. My best male friend would definitely consider that a challenge.

[Jean]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Since when women find that kind of stuff appealing?

You mean, "GO AWAY I'LL HURT YOU"? Since Twilight, apparently. Why has no one sent the templars after that abomination, yet?

Which that also baffles me.

[Addai]

Sarielle wrote...

Oh, it probably IS the reason. It just makes me sad, is all; I think they're missing their demographic a little on that one.

Or in my case, a lot.  lol

I think I just trust David Gaider's handling of romance story lines better.  IMO he has a deft touch with such things.  Zevran, for instance, was completely f'ed up (my Zev romance line is Sarah McLachlan's "a beautiful ****ed up man") but in other ways he was so sane and reasonable and mature that even in the comic-book world of a fantasy game, I could believe in a romance story line with him, and hence could find it emotionally engaging.  With Anders there just isn't enough of the appealing to balance out the yuck.

And thus I complete the irony that I'm commenting on this in Anders' thread after SF changed the title to its present incarnation.  It was fate.  

P.S. I'm also willing to believe it was all a cruel trick on the writers' part to underscore the fact that the one sane, grounded man in the game prefers a CROSSBOW to you.  No I'm not bitter!!!!

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juin 2011 - 11:36 .

[ipgd]

I do think it's ultimately a nod at that kind of Twilight trope (and handled well, in a self-aware deconstructive fashion), but it's the disparity between the female and male romances that makes me scratch my head.

[Jean]

20 bucks on a Twilight rage dispute to begin

[SurelyForth]

ipgd wrote...

I do think it's ultimately a nod at that kind of Twilight trope (and handled well, in a self-aware deconstructive fashion), but it's the disparity between the female and male romances that makes me scratch my head.

Oh. I think the male romance lines are their attempt to explain how skirtchaser Anders went from feeling up Andraste and longing for a nice girl to wanting to hump Hawke's leg, regardless of gender. Establishing Karl as a pre-Justice relationship covers that gap nicely AND it (theoretically) quiets those who would accuse of Anders only being bi-sexual because he's possessed.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 juin 2011 - 11:40 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't know who compared Loghain to Xanatos, I certainly did not.

Forgive me. I just don't understand how you can like Loghain so much and dislike Anders... if, indeed Xanatos is your role model. But I haven't been involved in the old arguments, and I don't want to start them up here (though if you want to direct me to links, I'd read them). I've always just been amused and puzzled by the juxtoposition in your signature.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
You admire men who stand on the edge of the cliff pushing others off until they can figure out empirically how it's done. But sometimes you can't. Sometimes there's nothing for it but to plummet blind, or be left behind by history.

And Anders should be left behind to be forgotten by history. There is nothing of him worth remembering (that wouldn't be misinformation) and I see him as the ultimate representation of mage weakness (and Orsino, of mage lunacy).

We are talking here about something that involves the lives of hundreds, thousands and hundreds of thousands. I'd much rather have the mentally unstable know their place, either as tools or in a grave (if there is no facilities that can help them).

You can say Anders deserves to be forgotten, and maybe he will be. I doubt he cares. But you cannot say he was left behind by history. No. regardless of what happens, he drove history. Just for a moment, but that's longer than most people get. He did a thing, goddamit, and you can't take that away from him.

You believe it was unambiguously towards ill that he drove it, and irresponsibly so. I disagree. Only the future can tell us who is right, and I believe we will more than likely be able to tell the future ourselves, through the medium of the game. In your world, it may be that he is a forgotten fool who doomed his people. in mine, a man who opened a door through which freedom streamed.

That we two can have such wildly divergent views of the event means simply that the writers achieved their goals. I don't think either of us are going to be convinced to view his actions differently though, not at this point. We've both seen all the arguments laid bare, and come to our own conclusions.

Man, I'm being overdramatic today. Don't mind me. I live in New England and it's one of those days where you can feel the shoggoths in the air and your chest is filled with darkness.

[Sarielle]

Addai67 wrote...


P.S. I'm also willing to believe it was all a cruel trick on the writers' part to underscore the fact that the one sane, grounded man in the game prefers a CROSSBOW to you.  No I'm not bitter!!!!

Oh, I'm bitter too.

/pine

[leggywillow]

ipgd wrote...

I do think it's ultimately a nod at that kind of Twilight trope (and handled well, in a self-aware deconstructive fashion), but it's the disparity between the female and male romances that makes me scratch my head.

Hopefully this isn't just me making excuses for the writers, but I feel like it was more to avoid emasculating the male characters than to appeal to females.  Bioware's done a bunch of successful romances in previous games, so I think they know what appeals to their female demographic.  They also probably know enough about their audience to know there would have been ENDLESS ****** (even more than there already is) if the males had to say "WHAT?!  Not only did he hit on me but he also was afraid of HURTING me?!  I'm not a delicate lady-flower!  I AM MAN."

[Jean]

leggywillow wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I do think it's ultimately a nod at that kind of Twilight trope (and handled well, in a self-aware deconstructive fashion), but it's the disparity between the female and male romances that makes me scratch my head.

Hopefully this isn't just me making excuses for the writers, but I feel like it was more to avoid emasculating the male characters than to appeal to females.  Bioware's done a bunch of successful romances in previous games, so I think they know what appeals to their female demographic.  They also probably know enough about their audience to know there would have been ENDLESS ****** (even more than there already is) if the males had to say "WHAT?!  Not only did he hit on me but he also was afraid of HURTING me?!  I'm not a delicate lady-flower!  I AM MAN."

Considering how many males seemed like they were deathly afraid all their peni will fall off because he flirted with them, this sounds about right to me.

Modifié par Batteries, 11 juin 2011 - 11:46 .

[ipgd]

Batteries wrote...

20 bucks on a Twilight rage dispute to begin

I'll just post this again, hurrdurrlol.

leggywillow wrote...

Hopefully this isn't just me making excuses for the writers, but I feel like it was more to avoid emasculating the male characters than to appeal to females.  Bioware's done a bunch of successful romances in previous games, so I think they know what appeals to their female demographic.  They also probably know enough about their audience to know there would have been ENDLESS ****** (even more than there already is) if the males had to say "WHAT?!  Not only did he hit on me but he also was afraid of HURTING me?!  I'm not a delicate lady-flower!  I AM MAN."

I don't know what it is, but none of the answers I can come up with are anything but Unfortunate Implications like whoa.

Modifié par ipgd, 11 juin 2011 - 11:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't know who compared Loghain to Xanatos, I certainly did not.

Forgive me. I just don't understand how you can like Loghain so much and dislike Anders... if, indeed Xanatos is your role model. But I haven't been involved in the old arguments, and I don't want to start them up here (though if you want to direct me to links, I'd read them). I've always just been amused and puzzled by the juxtoposition in your signature.

They are radically different, but yea, I don't want to get into the old arguments again.
There are a couple of threads out there, too lazy to find them.

And I don't see how me liking Xanatos means I can only like characters like him.

Furthermore, I never ever said I disliked Anders. I repeat, he is my 3rd favorite character in DA2 and the only redeeming thing about Act 3. I find him fascianting and I do sympathize. Doesn't stop me from thinking he is a mentaly unstable fool.

You can say Anders deserves to be forgotten, and maybe he will be. I doubt he cares. But you cannot say he was left behind by history. No. regardless of what happens, he drove history. Just for a moment, but that's longer than most people get. He did a thing, goddamit, and you can't take that away from him.

Yea, so did a lot of maniacs, idiots and fools.
Doesn't make what they did any less idiotic.

I am more interested in who writes history (as in achieves the power to be able to write it) and that will certainly not be Anders.

 Only the future can tell us who is right

No. For even if a better situation arises, it is those who were brave enough to fight, organize, plan and above all *think* that will get all the credit from me. 

The outcome of the revolt has nothing to do with what I think of Anders, as he didn't bother to really think of the outcome in the first place.

Man, I'm being overdramatic today. Don't mind me. I live in New England and it's one of those days where you can feel the shoggoths in the air and your chest is filled with darkness.

Err...I live in Montreal, where the weather finally became tolerable?

[SurelyForth]

RE: Anders driving history...

The reason why I can't go harder on Anders is because, according to Flemeth (and even Elthina if you want to go all herp dee derp "here's that sign from the Maker you were waiting for!" about it), what he did was absolutely inevitable. We can get into arguments of fate vs. free will (and it might even look a lot like the Rivalry v. Friendship arguments sense they sorta shake out the same way) but no matter what, Something Was Going To Happen. He just made a statement besides "We are the Chantry and we can crush you under our heel if you step out of line."

(and, before anyone asks, I think that statement was (statements were) "THIS is what the Chantry does to mages" *gestures to self* "This is how quick they are to condemn us all for the act of one" *gestures at Right of Annulment* and "The Chantry and those who lead it are not protected on high and, mages, you are not helpless against them" *gestures to the smoke and debris from the explosion*)

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 juin 2011 - 11:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

SurelyForth wrote...

RE: Anders driving history...

The reason why I can't go harder on Anders is because, according to Flemeth, what he did was absolutely inevitable. We can get into arguments of fate vs. free will (and it might even look a lot like the Rivalry v. Friendship arguments sense they sorta shake out the same way) but no matter what, Something Was Going To Happen.

In that case, I wouldn't go hard on Howe.

[beckaliz]

Well, who knows? It could very well be just Anders being chivalrous when relating to a woman. He appreciates a lady being a lady. Can't really be chivalrous to a man. XD It makes sense if you look at it like that, I hope. After all, they say different things to you based on your personality. I like Aveline's speech about not taking anything seriously during her Questioning Beliefs quest when she tells Hawke he should petition for a title.

One thing they DIDN'T change that would have been nice was the bedroom scene. Like wtf, m!Hawke is NOT going to coyly take Anders's hand and lead him to the bed and lie down for him like that. Well, er, not most of the time probably...? The animations just kind of lend m!Hawke into being a bottom for Anders and a top for Fenris. *scratches head* Coming from the perspective of someone hopelessly into yaoi... which I feel obligated to admit. *cough*

[Sarielle]

You guys keep steering me back to tvtropes and I really, REALLY don't have time for that today, lol.


EDIT: What's this bit about Flemeth basically saying Anders' actions were inevitable? I've already talked to Flemeth and I don't recall anything like that.

EDIT EDIT: And it's the same for females; implied top-hood when with Fen and implied bottom-hood when with Anders. I don't see that it's a bigger deal for one than the other?

Modifié par Sarielle, 11 juin 2011 - 11:57 .

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...

Well, who knows? It could very well be just Anders being chivalrous when relating to a woman. He appreciates a lady being a lady. Can't really be chivalrous to a man. XD It makes sense if you look at it like that, I hope. After all, they say different things to you based on your personality. I like Aveline's speech about not taking anything seriously during her Questioning Beliefs quest when she tells Hawke he should petition for a title.

yeah, that kind of "chivarly" is still very unfortunate implications.

One thing they DIDN'T change that would have been nice was the bedroom scene. Like wtf, m!Hawke is NOT going to coyly take Anders's hand and lead him to the bed and lie down for him like that. Well, er, not most of the time probably...? The animations just kind of lend m!Hawke into being a bottom for Anders and a top for Fenris. *scratches head* Coming from the perspective of someone hopelessly into yaoi... which I feel obligated to admit. *cough*

i'm going to avoid the temptation to make this thread uncivil and say this much: no. the scene is fine.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

SurelyForth wrote...

RE: Anders driving history...

The reason why I can't go harder on Anders is because, according to Flemeth (and even Elthina if you want to go all herp dee derp "here's that sign from the Maker you were waiting for!" about it), what he did was absolutely inevitable. We can get into arguments of fate vs. free will (and it might even look a lot like the Rivalry v. Friendship arguments sense they sorta shake out the same way) but no matter what, Something Was Going To Happen. He just made a statement besides "We are the Chantry and we can crush you under our heel if you step out of line."

(and, before anyone asks, I think that statement was (statements were) "THIS is what the Chantry does to mages" *gestures to self* "This is how quick they are to condemn us all for the act of one" *gestures at Right of Annulment* and "The Chantry and those who lead it are not protected on high and, mages, you are not helpless against them" *gestures to the smoke and debris from the explosion*)

Yes.

Yes yes yes.

At this point Flemeth is my favorite Dragon Age character, the one who makes me squee and clap and jump up and down and want to be just like her when I grow up into a virtually immortal master witch.

I think that she looks at Kirkwall and sees that all the levers of history are laid bare there (and yes I know I love that metaphor too much), and she also looks at history and sees that it is at a point where something huge is going to happen, so she chuckles to herself and waits for the fun to start.

Which is why I have Defying Gravity on repeat right now. I honestly never really "got" that song until this thread.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 juin 2011 - 12:01 .

[Jean]

Sarielle wrote...


EDIT: What's this bit about Flemeth basically saying Anders' actions were inevitable? I've already talked to Flemeth and I don't recall anything like that.

She mentions change coming after you "revive" her. And Morrigan also implies inevitable change in Witch Hunt.