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[ipgd]

beckaliz wrote...

One thing they DIDN'T change that would have been nice was the bedroom scene. Like wtf, m!Hawke is NOT going to coyly take Anders's hand and lead him to the bed and lie down for him like that. Well, er, not most of the time probably...? The animations just kind of lend m!Hawke into being a bottom for Anders and a top for Fenris. *scratches head* Coming from the perspective of someone hopelessly into yaoi... which I feel obligated to admit. *cough*

IT'S A METAPHOR FOR HOW HAWKE DELIBERATELY LEADS ANDERS INTO A POSITION OF INFLUENCE OVER HIM


but no i won't comment seriously on this i won't


i won't

[beckaliz]

Hmmm forget I mentioned it...  Ouch.

Modifié par beckaliz, 12 juin 2011 - 12:03 .

[Sarielle]

Batteries wrote...

Sarielle wrote...


EDIT: What's this bit about Flemeth basically saying Anders' actions were inevitable? I've already talked to Flemeth and I don't recall anything like that.

She mentions change coming after you "revive" her. And Morrigan also implies inevitable change in Witch Hunt.

Oh, I though something specific was mentioned involving him, besides Flemeth taking a look at him and going "lolabomination."

I didn't play Witch Hunt though.

[Arquen]

Isn't Dragon Age called Dragon Age because it symbolizes an age full of violence, disaster, change, and destruction? Didn't the divine name the age "Dragon Age" because a high dragon appeared and thus signaled an age of such turmoil as the Dragon represents.

Point being it is possible that even without Anders' splosion all over the city that there would have been a breaking point anyway. That it was in essence "inevitable" change, but Anders just happened to be the one who fired "the shot heard round the world." Perhaps in the end it all just is fate, and there were no choices at all.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Sarielle wrote...

Oh, I though something specific was mentioned involving him, besides Flemeth taking a look at him and going "lolabomination."

I didn't play Witch Hunt though.

Abomination is such a weighted term. How about "differently magical?" 

I like to think Flemeth's zing on him about that is how quick he is to still use that term in that way with such venom instead of bloody thinking about things. He's still so simple, limited, human. Pathetic, but potentially useful.

God damn I love that woman.

[SurelyForth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

RE: Anders driving history...

The reason why I can't go harder on Anders is because, according to Flemeth, what he did was absolutely inevitable. We can get into arguments of fate vs. free will (and it might even look a lot like the Rivalry v. Friendship arguments sense they sorta shake out the same way) but no matter what, Something Was Going To Happen.

In that case, I wouldn't go hard on Howe.

Because the Couslands' deaths were inevitable? Because there was another force beyond Howe plotting to destroy them and Arl Urien? No. Howe himself was the biggest threat and he was acting purely in self-interest and not wishing to change anything more than his own lot in life. He suffered no ill effects of being a Howe. He had his title and his wealth. If people didn't like him or trust him, it was because he was inherently unlikeable or untrustworthy.

Anders is the result of a millenia of oppression and doctrine. At age 12, his father considers him an unspeakable sinner because magic is the Maker's punishment. His mother lost her beloved son and Anders watched those around him be abused and indoctrinated to hate themselves and fear their own power. He escaped into the Wardens only to be placed under the heel of the Chantry again and this made him fully confront what he'd always known: mages were never going to be able to prove themselves unless the entire system was dismantled and rebuilt.

His goals are huge and for what he believes is for the betterment of a large portion of mankind (not only mages but their families and all of society who could benefit from their powers instead of reserving that access to nobles and generals). And he tried to bring about change the right way, through his clinic and the Mage Underground and by appealling to the Grand Cleric. He exhausted several options and only turned to violence when it became clear that violence was inevitable. 

He also turned himself in and faced his judgement because he knew that he deserved to be judged. Howe expressed awareness that what he did to the Couslands was unfortunate, but he reveled in it. So...no. I don't have to go easy on Howe if I go easy on Anders. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 juin 2011 - 12:18 .

[Sarielle]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Oh, I though something specific was mentioned involving him, besides Flemeth taking a look at him and going "lolabomination."

I didn't play Witch Hunt though.

Abomination is such a weighted term. How about "differently magical?" 

I like to think Flemeth's zing on him about that is how quick he is to still use that term in that way with such venom instead of bloody thinking about things. He's still so simple, limited, human. Pathetic, but potentially useful.

God damn I love that woman.

Oh, I agree, she's definitely calling him out on being a hypocrite. Flemeth is one of my all-time favorite characters, too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SurelyForth wrote...
Because the Couslands' deaths were inevitable? Because there was another force beyond Howe plotting to destroy them and Arl Urien? No. Howe himself was the biggest threat and he was acting purely in self-interest and not wishing to change anything more than his own lot in life. He suffered no ill effects of being a Howe. He had his title and his wealth. If people didn't like him or trust him, it was because he was inherently unlikeable or untrustworthy.

But he did, his land was a province under Cousland control, while in the past it was the opposite, and Howe was raised in an environement based on noble competition (who kill each other for much less, like apple trees). And he was raised under Orlesian oppression.  And he seemd to genuinely belive that the Couslands were traitors, which wouldn't surprise me.

And, at least when a human noble, if Howe didn't do what he did, Ferelden would have probably been screwed.
One could argue that it's fate that drove him to do it, just to save Ferelden.

Of course I was being sarcastic, both are responsable for their acts, except Anders is not fully so because he is inhabited by an unstable spirit. And of course, Anders is much more sympathetic.
But I was talkign about "Fate doing it" somehow absolving Anders of responsability.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juin 2011 - 12:23 .

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But I was talkign about "Fate doing it" somehow absolving Anders of responsability.

I think the argument is more that it makes him more responsible. Since your argument is that he is not responsible for anything positive that might happen as consequence :innocent:

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But I was talkign about "Fate doing it" somehow absolving Anders of responsability.

I think the argument is more that it makes him more responsible. Since your argument is that he is not responsible for anything positive that might happen as consequence :innocent:

And I stand by it. He is solely responsable for that one act alone, for he didn't plan or really think for what might happen afterwards, let alone act.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I stand by it. He is solely responsable for that one act alone, for he didn't plan or really think for what might happen afterwards, let alone act.

And the "fate" argument supposes that one act is a very important act.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I stand by it. He is solely responsable for that one act alone, for he didn't plan or really think for what might happen afterwards, let alone act.

And the "fate" argument supposes that one act is a very important act.

Then I'll give credit to fate and not its blind instrument. If I am to start with that premise, which I don't.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juin 2011 - 12:41 .

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But I was talkign about "Fate doing it" somehow absolving Anders of responsability.

I think the argument is more that it makes him more responsible. Since your argument is that he is not responsible for anything positive that might happen as consequence :innocent:

And I stand by it. He is solely responsable for that one act alone, for he didn't plan or really think for what might happen afterwards, let alone act.

if i may, what kind of planning do you require? i assume something concrete, because anders certainly has an abstract idea of the consequences of his actions and thus tailored those actions to a perceived reaction.  it's not like he woke up one morning and decided, hey, today i'll bomb a building i don't like.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Then I'll give credit to fate and not its blind instrument. If I am to start with that premise, which I don't.

But then he would stand with equal responsibility with everyone else involved in world-shaping events HUUHUHUUH HUHU HUHUUH HUHUHU HUHU

gosh this argument is tiring

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...
if i may, what kind of planning do you require? i assume something concrete, because anders certainly has an abstract idea of the consequences of his actions and thus tailored those actions to a perceived reaction.  it's not like he woke up one morning and decided, hey, today i'll bomb a building i don't like.

Planning to win the war and more importantly, planning on what to build after winning that war.

And no, rethoric on some obscure manifesto he writes 3 years before that no one seems to care about, is not what I call a plan. Not unless I am shown otherwise.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Then I'll give credit to fate and not its blind instrument. If I am to start with that premise, which I don't.

But then he would stand with equal responsibility with everyone else involved in world-shaping events HUUHUHUUH HUHU HUHUUH HUHUHU HUHU

gosh this argument is tiring

Hence why I reject the premise.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

My view of Anders thought process is this: 

1. The only way to win is to simultaneously galvanize all the mages to rebel and communicate with each other.

2. Nobody can enable this kind of communication and coordination without doing something drastic.

3. I am at a time and place where I can do something drastic.

4. If we wait until there is someone who both has the opportunity to do something drastic and the capability to coordinate communication, we could wait forever.

5. I've already started down this road, I will never get a better chance. There may never again be a time or a place where a free mage is at such a crux of history and chaos and fate. Let's do this.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 juin 2011 - 12:51 .

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ademska wrote...
if i may, what kind of planning do you require? i assume something concrete, because anders certainly has an abstract idea of the consequences of his actions and thus tailored those actions to a perceived reaction.  it's not like he woke up one morning and decided, hey, today i'll bomb a building i don't like.

Planning to win the war and more importantly, planning on what to build after winning that war.

And no, rethoric on some obscure manifesto he writes 3 years before that no one seems to care about, is not what I call a plan. Not unless I am shown otherwise.

oh, no, i'm not referring to manifesto-scribblings, i'm referring to his dialogue immediately following the big bang about removing compromise, forcing hands, generally sending the world into a tizzy with the ultimate result that the circles will fall in some way or another.  that suggests to me an understanding of the gravity of his actions.

but while we're on the topic of the manifesto, we never do see what he's written.  i'm not about to argue that anders put forth anything more than a vague (if imo admirable) notion of freedom and justice, but conversely neither can you argue that he never theorized viable, explicit solutions for various mage-y issues.

[ipgd]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

This is like watching two deer fighting, with their antlers locked together. One pushes, then the other pushes, then no one really gets anywhere and then someone takes a photo of it.

I'm in it for the hot does.

[ademska]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

This is like watching two deer fighting, with their antlers locked together. One pushes, then the other pushes, then no one really gets anywhere and then someone takes a photo of it.

awww but words are infinitely more fun than nasty ol antlers and i am so bored right now

KoP has an opinion and other people have other opinions.  sometimes they differ from my own, and sometimes they sway me, tho i am a stubborn human and thus loathe to outright admit it. regardless, delving deep into this stuff is so fun so whateva

i'll just roll around in the muck like a happy dog

Modifié par ademska, 12 juin 2011 - 12:56 .

[leggywillow]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

This is like watching two deer fighting, with their antlers locked together. One pushes, then the other pushes, then no one really gets anywhere and then someone takes a photo of it.

But then eventually one overpowers the other and steals his women!

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

My view of Anders thought process is this: 

1. The only way to win is to simultaneously galvanize all the mages to rebel and communicate with each other.

2. Nobody can enable this kind of communication and coordination without doing something drastic.

3. I am at a time and place where I can do something drastic.

4. If we wait until there is someone who both has the opportunity to do something drastic and the capability to coordinate communication, we could wait forever.

5. I've already started down this road, I will never get a better chance. There may never again be a time or a place where a free mage is at such a crux of history and chaos and fate. Let's do this.

One I find is innacurate, and no where near sufficient for victory or for buildign something else in the future.

ademska wrote...
oh, no, i'm not
referring to manifesto-scribblings, i'm referring to his dialogue
immediately following the big bang about removing compromise, forcing
hands, generally sending the world into a tizzy with the ultimate result
that the circles will fall in some way or another.  that suggests to me
an understanding of the gravity of his actions.

In the short run. What are his long term plans, that's what interests me.

If he doesn't have any, then he should have known his place and not do anything.

but while we're
on the topic of the manifesto, we never do see what he's written.  i'm
not about to argue that anders put forth anything more than a vague (if
imo admirable) notion of freedom and justice, but conversely neither can
you argue that he never theorized viable, explicit solutions for
various mage-y issues.

Even if he did, no one cares about the manifesto at the time when he blows up the Chantry. He didnt' have a following. So he had no reason to believe that his work will somehow go viral after he immediately dies (that is if anyone even knew that it was Anders who is responsable for what happened).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juin 2011 - 01:01 .

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Even if he did, no one cares about the manifesto at the time when he blows up the Chantry. He didnt' have a following. So he had no reason to believe that his work will somehow go viral after he immediately dies (that is if anyone even knew that it was Anders who is responsable for what happened).

He was involved in the mage underground, and presumably wrote his manifesto to spread through those channels. That he stuffs it everywhere in Hawke's mansion suggests he was proactive in its dissemination. It could already have a strong presence in the movement, we don't know for sure.

There's also Sebastian, who will undoubtedly make sure everyone knows exactly who Anders was and what he did. That alone could spark interest in his manifesto.