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[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Even if he did, no one cares about the manifesto at the time when he blows up the Chantry. He didnt' have a following. So he had no reason to believe that his work will somehow go viral after he immediately dies (that is if anyone even knew that it was Anders who is responsable for what happened).

He was involved in the mage underground, and presumably wrote his manifesto to spread through those channels. That he stuffs it everywhere in Hawke's mansion suggests he was proactive in its dissemination. It could already have a strong presence in the movement, we don't know for sure.

There's also Sebastian, who will undoubtedly make sure everyone knows exactly who Anders was and what he did. That alone could spark interest in his manifesto.

The mage underground was defeated after Act 2 however. Meredith brought it down. Anders is one of the few survivors, hence his degrading mental condition. 

The only active mage resistance in Act 3 that we see or hear of are the Resolutionists.

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Even if he did, no one cares about the manifesto at the time when he blows up the Chantry. He didnt' have a following. So he had no reason to believe that his work will somehow go viral after he immediately dies (that is if anyone even knew that it was Anders who is responsable for what happened).

He was involved in the mage underground, and presumably wrote his manifesto to spread through those channels. That he stuffs it everywhere in Hawke's mansion suggests he was proactive in its dissemination. It could already have a strong presence in the movement, we don't know for sure.

There's also Sebastian, who will undoubtedly make sure everyone knows exactly who Anders was and what he did. That alone could spark interest in his manifesto.

The mage underground was defeated after Act 2 however. Meredith brought it down. Anders is one of the few survivors, hence his degrading mental condition. 

The only active mage resistance in Act 3 that we see or hear of are the Resolutionists.

the only active mage, yes, but the specific line is "every mage i know, forced into hiding or made tranquil".  meredith certainly beat the underground down, but she didn't systematically eradicate everyone.  with meredith gone, all those forced into inactivity will likely come back out of the woodwork and with them, anders' works

Modifié par ademska, 12 juin 2011 - 01:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...
the only active mage, yes, but the specific line is "every mage i know, forced into hiding or made tranquil".  meredith certainly beat the underground down, but she didn't systematically eradicate everyone.  with meredith gone, all those forced into inactivity will likely come back out of the woodwork and with them, anders' works

Suppositions and a big leap of faith on his part. I would have been less harsh if he did all this while he certianly had a following and was working within a group.

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ademska wrote...
the only active mage, yes, but the specific line is "every mage i know, forced into hiding or made tranquil".  meredith certainly beat the underground down, but she didn't systematically eradicate everyone.  with meredith gone, all those forced into inactivity will likely come back out of the woodwork and with them, anders' works

Suppositions and a big leap of faith on his part. I would have been less harsh if he did all this while he certianly had a following and was working within a group.

no, i totally get you're coming from. my point is that the game is from hawke's pov and consequently we've got very little idea of what goes on in anders' life.  you can reasonably draw the conclusion that anders acts relatively on whim with no support, yes, but given certain dialogues you can alternatively infer that he has a solid grip on mage goings-on in kirkwall and formulates his plans around their potential reactions--just as he explicitly does for meredith and the chantry.

it's not the solid win-the-war plan that you'd prefer of a leader, but given the dire circumstances it's not too shabby.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Suppositions and a big leap of faith on his part. I would have been less harsh if he did all this while he certianly had a following and was working within a group.

He still manages to plant the bomb if you refuse to help him, which suggests he still has connections with some people in Kirkwall. It's just as much of a supposition to assert that he definitively had no support at all, given that we are given no real information about his dealings with the underground either way.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...
no, i totally get you're coming from. my point is that the game is from hawke's pov and consequently we've got very little idea of what goes on in anders' life.  you can reasonably draw the conclusion that anders acts relatively on whim with no support, yes, but given certain dialogues you can alternatively infer that he has a solid grip on mage goings-on in kirkwall and formulates his plans around their potential reactions--just as he explicitly does for meredith and the chantry.

Still not enough for me to think he is qualified.

ipgd wrote...
He still manages to plant the bomb if you refuse to help him, which suggests he still has connections with some
people in Kirkwall. It's just as much of a supposition to assert that
he definitively had no support at all, given that we are given no real
information about his dealings with the underground either way.

One or two supporters is now what I'd call support. But rather a substantial group of people. An organization. 
Seeing how Hawke goes deep into the mage issue in Act 3 and never stumbles on it, despite uncovering two of them (Grace and Resolutionists), I think it's safe to say that Anders was not part of any group. A few connections here and there are nto the same thing. The burden of proof lies on those who want to assert that he was working with someone in Act 3 in any substantial way when no mention was made of it.

And if the writers deliberately hid that from us, I'll call it bad writing. Such a thing is fundamental to how we'd look at Anders.

Furthermore I doubt Anders, considering his degrading mental condition by act 3, could have been able to work in an organization anyhow.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juin 2011 - 01:29 .

[Sarielle]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I <3 Flemeth so much. She's just so delightful in her scheming. And she pulls such a huge trollface on the world of men and the laws of nature, not only by surviving for so long, but attaining such immense power.

Lol, I really like this imagery. And I wish I had the time to concentrate enough to actually debate stuff with you guys. Alas.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ademska wrote...
the only active mage, yes, but the specific line is "every mage i know, forced into hiding or made tranquil".  meredith certainly beat the underground down, but she didn't systematically eradicate everyone.  with meredith gone, all those forced into inactivity will likely come back out of the woodwork and with them, anders' works

Suppositions and a big leap of faith on his part. I would have been less harsh if he did all this while he certianly had a following and was working within a group.

The problem is that when there was a group, he was still capable of fooling himself, of telling himself that there was another way.

Blowing the Chantry only happened because Meredith had systematically destroyed every other productive course of action. She destroyed the mage underground, drove mages into hiding, and was actively preventing Hawke from becoming Viscount.

Sure, he could have done the Chantry boom when the mage resistance was still going strong, theoretically. But there was still enough hope and compassion in Anders that he wouldn't resort to such a thing until every other door was closed to him. And I respect him for that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
The problem is that when there was a group, he was still capable of fooling himself, of telling himself that there was another way.

Considering that what they did is only help mages flee, he'd be pretty delusional if he thought that they were actively trying to change anything.

He had from Act 1 to plan and organize properly and if he can't, then it's not his place to make decisions of this magnitude.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juin 2011 - 01:39 .

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One or two supporters is now what I'd call support. But rather a substantial group of people. An organization. 
Seeing how Hawke goes deep into the mage issue in Act 3 and never stumbles on it, despite uncovering two of them (Grace and Resolutionists), I think it's safe to say that Anders was not part of any group. A few connections here and there are nto the same thing. The burden of proof lies on those who want to assert that he was working with someone in Act 3 in any substantial way when no mention was made of it.

And if the writers deliberately hid that from us, I'll call it bad writing. Such a thing is fundamental to how we'd look at Anders.

Furthermore I doubt Anders, considering his degrading mental condition by act 3, could have been able to work in an organization anyhow.

I'm just saying that we don't know enough to draw any definitive conclusions either way. For all we know, he could have some elaborate Batman Gambit going on.

Again: Anders is crazy, but not that kind of crazy. He may be blowing up churches but he's still ultimately lucid.

[berelinde]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
In the short run. What are his long term plans, that's what interests me.

Anders's short term plan was to die. That kind of negates the need for long term plans, don't you think?

That was the snarky answer. The serious answer is that he never planned to survive the evening. He stated that his intention was to remove the possibility of compromise, but I think it goes deeper than that. This is only my opinion, but I think his intention was to say "Look at me! Look what I have done! We can win." His example proved that the templars could be defied. After that, it would be up to other mages to take up the cause, since he would be dead and therefore unable to take an active role himself. Circles would free themselves, one by one. Which is pretty much what happened. So mission accomplished.

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

He also turned himself in and faced his judgement because he knew that he deserved to be judged. Howe expressed awareness that what he did to the Couslands was unfortunate, but he reveled in it. So...no. I don't have to go easy on Howe if I go easy on Anders. 

If anything, on the subject of the supernatural/ fate driving people along, I think there is a parallel to Maric and Loghain rather than to Howe.  Both M & L were profoundly affected by their encounter with Flemeth and her manipulations, something that haunted them their whole lives and which was still driving some of Loghain's behavior as of Origins game time.  Howe is something of a side character in the Origins story, really.  The only reason he succeeds in his gambit at all is that Loghain and Anora enable him politically, and since he's more purely greedy/ evil, the more interesting question to me is what drives Loghain than what drives Howe.

However, in the case of The Stolen Throne/ The Calling/ Origins I thought the story was better because it left open the idea that it was never the supernatural at work at all, rather it was the psychological effect of Flemeth's manipulations on these two men.  More of a human story.  By the time we meet him in DA2, Anders is past that point and thus the pathos factor goes way down for me.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 juin 2011 - 02:16 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

He also turned himself in and faced his judgement because he knew that he deserved to be judged. Howe expressed awareness that what he did to the Couslands was unfortunate, but he reveled in it. So...no. I don't have to go easy on Howe if I go easy on Anders. 

If anything, on the subject of the supernatural/ fate driving people along, I think there is a parallel to Maric and Loghain rather than to Howe.  Both M & L were profoundly affected by their encounter with Flemeth and her manipulations, something that haunted them their whole lives and which was still driving some of Loghain's behavior as of Origins game time.  Howe is something of a side character in the Origins story, really.  The only reason he succeeds in his gambit at all is that Loghain and Anora enable him politically, and since he's more purely greedy/ evil, the more interesting question to me is what drives Loghain than what drives Howe.

However, in the case of The Stolen Throne/ The Calling/ Origins I thought the story was better because it left open the idea that it was never the supernatural at work at all, rather it was the psychological effect of Flemeth's manipulations on these two men.  More of a human story.  By the time we meet him in DA2, Anders is past that point and thus the pathos factor goes way down for me.

For me, a substantial amount of my love for Anders is colored by sympathy for the Devil Justice.

If you just consider Justice a force or an influence rather than a sentient entity, I can see how the whole thing seems rather less sympathetic or relatable. I just... man, after today's arguments, Justice is scrabbling at the back of my head like a wild dog, begging me to explain him, to make someone understand him. Sadly, even I don't really understand him. Not yet. I'll have to think about it some more.

Demons are spirits who are corrupted by their desires. They want to experience human emotion, but they never really do. They just feed on it until the human dies, they just step into this world for a few moments before the veil heals itself. Vengeance doesn't feel like these other demons, other abominatios we've met. He isn't looking for a way into this world, he's already here. He isn't looking to feed on anything Anders has, he's looking to give rather than take. He does want to know about this world, yes, but does curiosity make someone a demon? Does wanting anything make a spirit into a demon? 

When he was in the corpse, some people liked Justice. He was friends with mortals, loosely, and they tried to help him understand things. Now he joins with Anders and becomes something strange, something even he doesn't understand, Vengeance. Neither demon nor spririt, mortal nor immortal, and nobody wants to talk with him or help him understand. Even Anders is fighting him all the time, guilty over the transformation. Guilty, unworthy, and afraid.

If Justice is merely a problem Anders had, a thing that hurt Anders, an illness he has developed, an addiction he succumbed to, then yeah. I can see you not liking this idea at all.

But for me, the tragedy is that they both had value, on their own. Does the new thing they made have the same amount of value, just in a different direction? Can it every really accept itself, and reach the potential of the new kind of creature who has been created? The structure of the story says probably not. Which is a pity.

[Collider]

Blowing the Chantry only happened because Meredith had systematically destroyed every other productive course of action.

I really don't agree. We can't know for certain whether there were or were not other options. I hardly think killing innocents in the chantry was necessary - especially considering the whole business with justice. Necessary just isn't needed for justice.

[Arquen]

I think the problem lies in the fact that Justice was an independent entity. Even in Kristoff's body he was ALONE in there. His consciousness, his thoughts, his mind, alone. Now it becomes two entities entwined as one. This creates a constant struggle for one to dominate the other.

Vengeance is twisted in Anders' emotions and furthermore Anders is always suppressing him down because he doesn't want to lose himself. It becomes a constant battle between the two to get control and be heard in the world. From what I know of Justice he would not want to just sit idle and be a submissive passenger, but Anders also would not want to give control of himself completely over. Nobody would.

I think to really understand Justice and what he becomes you have to see where he is coming from. He is trapped even moreso now than he was before. Before he could at least comment, experience, and be an individual as much as he was in the fade. Now he is reduced to some silent passenger, and I think it drives him mad as much as it drives Anders mad to realize there is this other person inside him now attempting to gain control and be heard all the time.

[Amondra]

ElleMullineux wrote...

See now, Justice just reminds me of the Black Knight from Holy Grail... so intent on his pursuit that he doesn't notice the damage. It's like initially he's set up to be this perfect chivalrous idol, and then it just all goes horribly horrifically wrong.

Anyway, I came to DAA Justice after DA2, and he creeped me out utterly. In the fade, fine, things be crazy in the fade. As soon as he's in Kristoff's body he says he doesn't want to die. :/
And then he wants to torment Aura with the walking corpse of her husband because he thinks it's right, there is no thought as to what is right for other people. He's got enough of Kristoff's memories to want to see her, but not enough to understand how horrifically wrong it would be.
Which is naive, and endearing if you view him as just an innocent spirit, but still it gives me hardcore heebie jeebies.

Now, I don't really buy into spirts vs. demons, I'm probably more with Merrill on the whole 'they're just potential', and as such I don't see Justice being different to Vengence. (Foreshadowed in DAO where they are used in the same sentence a couple of times - the one I can remember off the top of my head being at the temple: "I am justice, I am vengence, blood can only be repaid with blood".). Anders is the one that differentiates between the two, that labels them as something different. Perhaps Anders is scared when he realises the path that getting justice will take him down and wants to call it something else so he can feel more disconnected to it? To keep it more truly other? Because after all he accepted Justice's offer but didn't understand the full implications?

Anyway, what I'm trying to say, as a seperate entity Justice does nothing for me, I can find no redeeming qualities because everything about him just screams "wrong" to me. As does the way he works his way into getting Anders to accept him.
However, it's one of those things where you just have to deal with it because it's happened. (Much like jenga). I love DA2 Anders for all his crazy and passion and intensity, which in part comes from Justice, so I can't begrudge him too much. But still...

Not going to lie I loved Justice in Awakening.  I saw him as being like a child in the world of mortals he didn't really get anything and was latching onto the Warden to help him, and make sure he made the right choices, to help him understand to some degree.

Holy **** thats why Anders is the way he is! It's Justice being all "WE NEEDS HAWKE"  Clearly Hawke is Justice's Warden replacement.

Anyhow Elle >_> how is chapter 13 coming along? 

[Amondra]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Amondra wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

See now, Justice just reminds me of the Black Knight from Holy Grail... so intent on his pursuit that he doesn't notice the damage. It's like initially he's set up to be this perfect chivalrous idol, and then it just all goes horribly horrifically wrong.

Anyway, I came to DAA Justice after DA2, and he creeped me out utterly. In the fade, fine, things be crazy in the fade. As soon as he's in Kristoff's body he says he doesn't want to die. :/
And then he wants to torment Aura with the walking corpse of her husband because he thinks it's right, there is no thought as to what is right for other people. He's got enough of Kristoff's memories to want to see her, but not enough to understand how horrifically wrong it would be.
Which is naive, and endearing if you view him as just an innocent spirit, but still it gives me hardcore heebie jeebies.

Now, I don't really buy into spirts vs. demons, I'm probably more with Merrill on the whole 'they're just potential', and as such I don't see Justice being different to Vengence. (Foreshadowed in DAO where they are used in the same sentence a couple of times - the one I can remember off the top of my head being at the temple: "I am justice, I am vengence, blood can only be repaid with blood".). Anders is the one that differentiates between the two, that labels them as something different. Perhaps Anders is scared when he realises the path that getting justice will take him down and wants to call it something else so he can feel more disconnected to it? To keep it more truly other? Because after all he accepted Justice's offer but didn't understand the full implications?

Anyway, what I'm trying to say, as a seperate entity Justice does nothing for me, I can find no redeeming qualities because everything about him just screams "wrong" to me. As does the way he works his way into getting Anders to accept him.
However, it's one of those things where you just have to deal with it because it's happened. (Much like jenga). I love DA2 Anders for all his crazy and passion and intensity, which in part comes from Justice, so I can't begrudge him too much. But still...

Not going to lie I loved Justice in Awakening.  I saw him as being like a child in the world of mortals he didn't really get anything and was latching onto the Warden to help him, and make sure he made the right choices, to help him understand to some degree.

Holy **** thats why Anders is the way he is! It's Justice being all "WE NEEDS HAWKE"  Clearly Hawke is Justice's Warden replacement.

Anyhow Elle >_> how is chapter 13 coming along? 

See, but Justice got pissy at my Warden when I wouldn't let him go talk to Aura. He only approved of letting him do what he thought was right. <_<

I've been staring at Chapter 13 for days now. It won't behave. But a load of fresh fic went up this morning (including yours ) so I'm reading and letting it plod away in the back of my brain.

I let him go talk to her, he wanted to better explain and say sorry.  Honestly, didn't she know this is what you sign up for as a Wardens wife? lol

I couldn't leave it alone with Anders cold "Yeah we'll kill him" line.  I wanted to kick his ass.  I was like "Really? Reall, really?" I mean I know he hates Templars and the Circle but that was a little much.

[ademska]

ElleMullineux wrote...
Anyway, I came to DAA Justice after DA2, and he creeped me out utterly. In the fade, fine, things be crazy in the fade. As soon as he's in Kristoff's body he says he doesn't want to die. :/
And then he wants to torment Aura with the walking corpse of her husband because he thinks it's right, there is no thought as to what is right for other people. He's got enough of Kristoff's memories to want to see her, but not enough to understand how horrifically wrong it would be.
Which is naive, and endearing if you view him as just an innocent spirit, but still it gives me hardcore heebie jeebies.

Now, I don't really buy into spirts vs. demons, I'm probably more with Merrill on the whole 'they're just potential', and as such I don't see Justice being different to Vengence. (Foreshadowed in DAO where they are used in the same sentence a couple of times - the one I can remember off the top of my head being at the temple: "I am justice, I am vengence, blood can only be repaid with blood".). Anders is the one that differentiates between the two, that labels them as something different. Perhaps Anders is scared when he realises the path that getting justice will take him down and wants to call it something else so he can feel more disconnected to it? To keep it more truly other? Because after all he accepted Justice's offer but didn't understand the full implications?

see, now i can't completely buy into merrill's side either.  yes, the codices are unreliable and written from a chantry perspective, and likely also the bestiary etc, but when anders says that the demons are classified very clearly according to mortal sin, he's got a fair point.  even if you don't buy into the concept of that kind of sin (and we'd be in agreement there), there's really no denying that the overall concept and goals of daa!justice--or, hell, the spirit who helps wynne in dao--are inherently more virtuous and selfless in action than the "demons" encountered in the game

now, that's not to say those spirits are without flaw, but i don't think the issue can be dismissed as arbitrary, chantry-drawn differences

[Amondra]

I don't think Vengeance Justice is a demon. Like retribution, vengeance only happens when what we see as justice fail (I.E. our justice system). at vengeance and retributions core is Justice. So because his fundamental core isn't really changed merely altered(because Anders see's it as the worlds idea of justice has failed) to what is at hand. Angels and other known "good" creatures in mythos of all kinds have been known to act accordingly as well.

My point, I think Anders considers Justice a demon, because of one, how much more aggressive he is now, then before. Also how whether or not Justice is being Justice or Vengeance is solely based off Anders over all feelings on the matter, which is something a demon, by what he knows would do, go off of emotions.

So I think Justice is still a spirit, just an evolved one. He isn't as single celled as other spirits seem to be. He himself has developed layers

I am also in the boat, that once this war is over, and lets say the mages win and Anders is still alive, Justice will calm down. However Anders sense of justice will forever be strong thus if he is confronted with any injustice he will act on it according to any of the three I mentioned. However I see retribution having to do more with pride then rage so Justice might only swing between the two...

sorry for the rambling and sorry if my point got lost in there somewhere I am bad at this.

[BlueMew]

ademska wrote...
if i may, what kind of planning do you require? i assume something concrete, because anders certainly has an abstract idea of the consequences of his actions and thus tailored those actions to a perceived reaction.  it's not like he woke up one morning and decided, hey, today i'll bomb a building i don't like.

To add something: quite the contrary, in fact. He isn't planning that from the beginning -- after discovering that the Divine doesn't back up the solution of making every mage Tranquil, he's hopeful that Elthina will listen to him talk about the mages' oppression. Even when he plants the damn bomb he wants Hawke to try and sway her one last time. 
Instead she just sits on her arse and does nothing, but well, we already knew that.

[ForgeDark]

ElleMullineux wrote...

ademska wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...
Anyway, I came to DAA Justice after DA2, and he creeped me out utterly. In the fade, fine, things be crazy in the fade. As soon as he's in Kristoff's body he says he doesn't want to die. :/
And then he wants to torment Aura with the walking corpse of her husband because he thinks it's right, there is no thought as to what is right for other people. He's got enough of Kristoff's memories to want to see her, but not enough to understand how horrifically wrong it would be.
Which is naive, and endearing if you view him as just an innocent spirit, but still it gives me hardcore heebie jeebies.

Now, I don't really buy into spirts vs. demons, I'm probably more with Merrill on the whole 'they're just potential', and as such I don't see Justice being different to Vengence. (Foreshadowed in DAO where they are used in the same sentence a couple of times - the one I can remember off the top of my head being at the temple: "I am justice, I am vengence, blood can only be repaid with blood".). Anders is the one that differentiates between the two, that labels them as something different. Perhaps Anders is scared when he realises the path that getting justice will take him down and wants to call it something else so he can feel more disconnected to it? To keep it more truly other? Because after all he accepted Justice's offer but didn't understand the full implications?

see, now i can't completely buy into merrill's side either.  yes, the codices are unreliable and written from a chantry perspective, and likely also the bestiary etc, but when anders says that the demons are classified very clearly according to mortal sin, he's got a fair point.  even if you don't buy into the concept of that kind of sin (and we'd be in agreement there), there's really no denying that the overall concept and goals of daa!justice--or, hell, the spirit who helps wynne in dao--are inherently more virtuous and selfless in action than the "demons" encountered in the game

now, that's not to say those spirits are without flaw, but i don't think the issue can be dismissed as arbitrary, chantry-drawn differences

I only chose Merrill as an example as she's the only in game character I can think of that didn't split them into two groups. But I do see what you're saying - and my own personal view would be that they fit along a scale of grey. I doubt that any "spirit" is 100% good or any "demon" 100% bad.
As I was writing that ramble this morning I was thinking back to the desire demon in the circle tower in DAO, with the templar reliving his life with his wife and children - I struggle to find that inherently bad. It's not butterflies, rainbows and kittens, but there was something about it that didn't scream "omg wtf evil".

An interesting thought might be whether the spirits/demons are anything until a mortal interacts with them? Is it only after contact with a mortal that they gain any form and said form depends on the ideology/culture of that mortal. It might go someway to explain the differences between the beliefs of the Dalish and the Chantry - and yet let both 'types' of spirits exist at the same time. /rambly thoughts this morning.

I am currently replaying origins and just got to the bit in Urn of Sacred Ashes where the spirit says  "I am justice, I am vengence, blood can only be repaid with blood" which has made me think very differently about Justice/Vengeance being different things. I think the problem is is that justice means different things to different people - e.g I'm against the death penalty, but many people are for it. I think Anders/Justices's ideas of justice are very different, and that is why Anders says Justice has changed to Vengeance - but I don't think the spirit Justice has changed at all he just now has a cause. Anders was just naive. 

I also agree with the desire demon in circle tower - I usually let the demon go. The act has already been done and I don't think killing the Templar is any better than letting the desire demon go. But then I've always been quite sympathetic to desire demons, they can only feed off what the mortal already wants.