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[Jon Jern_]

@Sarielle

Thanks bro

[Sarielle]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

To get back on topic... at one point I saw a blush-inducing fanart of Anders hooking up with two dudes in a bar with the caption.
"Justice doesn't let me get drunk anymore."

LOL! This I really want to see. Poor Anders.

Sigh. (link very NSFW)  What have you done to me, Anders fandom? I used to be such a good girl. Seriously, before this last month I never read a fic, never looked at a questionable tumblr.

I, uh, wow. LOL. Justice might have a point, actually.

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

I owe Addai for giving me Loghain-related warm fuzzies when my heart was hard against him. One of these days I will get her to shrug and say "Eh. I guess in that instance Anders is almost tolerable", if it's the last thing I do!

LOL Well I did that to myself, too.  Of course I don't really hate Anders.  He's an okay guy in Awakening, but in DA2 I mostly throw up my hands.  He's tied with Merrill for that response.

[Ambeth]

CGG, I didn't read fanfic before DA2, either. Or go looking for pictures, for that matter. I have learned SO MUCH in the last few months! LOL

[Sarielle]

Loooool another one with Justice intervening from that same blog: clicky (suggestive, but not like...full on penis shots or anything)

[LobselVith8]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I had a thought recently that perhaps I will make a poll for someday... I want to figure out if what Origin you played in Origins has any relation to what you think of Anders/whether you marderknife him.

It seems that people who were Tower/CityElf/Dalish players may have more inherent sympathy for blowing up the Chantry and destabilizing the institutional government, but that could just be an illusion.

I think it has to do with whether people support the Chantry or think the status quo needs to be abolished. Anders saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, and wanted to end the system so that mages could finally be freed from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Even a pro-mage Hawke can hold the same opinion that mages are slaves of the Chantry, and it's the line of argument that convinces even Fenris to side with Hawke. Despite the criticism against his method, the Circles of Magi did rise up and emancipate themselves.

As to your question, I went through Origins as the Surana Warden - an elven mage - and I went through the storyline learning more about the perspective of the elves of Thedas and the mages who have been living under Chantry rule for nearly a millennia. I suppose the seven year storyline of Kirkwall as an apostate (although an invisible one, for the most part). The monstrous behavior made against mages who were whipped for speaking to civilians, raped, and tortured (as we can hear the first time Hawke gets into the Gallows) doesn't inspire much faith in the status quo, and I can see why Anders wanted to bring it down.

[Sarielle]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Loooool another one with Justice intervening from that same blog: clicky (suggestive, but not like...full on penis shots or anything)

Ha! It's played for laughs, but the idea of having a disapproving spirit in your head watching through your eyes as you, er,  snuggle with your partner is seriously unnerving. For both parts.

Unless you're an exhibitionist xD

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Everyone becoming a mage would be such huge trolling that I can't help but guffaw at the thought. Not only because of the Chantry and the templars - I would pay to be a fly on the wall in the Qunari homelands when everyone wakes up and realizes they have magic and can't even get an arvaraad because they have become mages too. Hilarity ensues.

Probably won't happen because then you'd have to do away with rogues and warriors, but it's an amusing thought.

Oh man I hadn't even thought of the Qunari! So Great!

Gameplay-wise, it could happen... just have the rogues and warrior powers be magical now. Like you stab someone and fire comes out of your knife and cooks them from the inside, that kind of thing. Templar powers would use mana and be magical in any other world, and Reavers essentially use blood magic, right?

I do agree that it'll probably never actually happen (despite two or three places where it is very strongly foreshadowed), except maybe as the world-changing climax at the very end of the series - because once everyone has magic so much of society would be radically different, and all the nice inequalities and political tensions they've set up wouldn't matter so much anymore. The DA world is one of the most interesting fantasy settings I've seen in a long time. I'm not going to go off on another rant about mages, city elves, and the Dalish, but damn if they don't have some wonderfully nuanced and unique cultural norms and stigmatized underclasses. It's a few steps west from the standard CFU/NAFF universe you get with most fantasy, where it's all the same tropes just a few shades darker or lighter.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ambeth wrote...

CGG, I didn't read fanfic before DA2, either. Or go looking for pictures, for that matter. I have learned SO MUCH in the last few months! LOL

My big thing is that I'm an old fan. I've been in various fandoms for /coughmumble years. I rolled my eyes at the guy who wrote Sailor Moon fanfic back when that show was on network television. I stood in a Madarake in a Tokyo suburb and laughed at my friend as she pulled dozens of Hiro x Duo Gundam Wing doujinshi off of the rack. I thought I was... better. Stronger. I held out this long, only to fall now.

/shakeshead

I mostly blame Gonebatty. She draws too pretty to be ignored. I follow a link to a nice, perfectly normal sketch and get sucked into a dark netherworld.

(all of this is hyperbolic jokes. I do not actually regret the dark netherworld, or look down upon those who participate in its deliciousness.)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 juin 2011 - 04:10 .

[ashyraine]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I am so looking forward to magic coming back for everyone and the paradigm of the world shifting and maybe Morrigan's baby being some new god that does a better job than the bleeding useless Maker.

The idea is so much crazy fun that I can't imagine Bioware will let us actually live through it. But man, it would be absolutely fabulous if we could.

Everyone becoming a mage would be such huge trolling that I can't help but guffaw at the thought. Not only because of the Chantry and the templars - I would pay to be a fly on the wall in the Qunari homelands when everyone wakes up and realizes they have magic and can't even get an arvaraad because they have become mages too. Hilarity ensues.

Probably won't happen because then you'd have to do away with rogues and warriors, but it's an amusing thought.

Or they could just bring back Arcane Warriors.. and bring out the umm.. Ninja Wizards?

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I had a thought recently that perhaps I will make a poll for someday... I want to figure out if what Origin you played in Origins has any relation to what you think of Anders/whether you marderknife him.

It seems that people who were Tower/CityElf/Dalish players may have more inherent sympathy for blowing up the Chantry and destabilizing the institutional government, but that could just be an illusion.

I think it has to do with whether people support the Chantry or think the status quo needs to be abolished. Anders saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, and wanted to end the system so that mages could finally be freed from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Even a pro-mage Hawke can hold the same opinion that mages are slaves of the Chantry, and it's the line of argument that convinces even Fenris to side with Hawke. Despite the criticism against his method, the Circles of Magi did rise up and emancipate themselves.

As to your question, I went through Origins as the Surana Warden - an elven mage - and I went through the storyline learning more about the perspective of the elves of Thedas and the mages who have been living under Chantry rule for nearly a millennia. I suppose the seven year storyline of Kirkwall as an apostate (although an invisible one, for the most part). The monstrous behavior made against mages who were whipped for speaking to civilians, raped, and tortured (as we can hear the first time Hawke gets into the Gallows) doesn't inspire much faith in the status quo, and I can see why Anders wanted to bring it down.

I mostly played mages and consider elf mage my "official" Warden.  The characters I liked best were my Andrastian Tower mage and a Dalish mage I created via a mod and wrote quite a bit about.

I think playing different kinds of mages has shaped my outlook most.  It's given me the idea that they are not all alike, and therefore no one political viewpoint can claim to represent them, let alone one man (or man-spirit synthesis as the case may be).  I don't think either of my primary mages would be happy about the mage revolution.  Andrastian chancellor of Ferelden would be horrified.  Dalish mage would shake her head, but her clan was decimated by Merrill, so she'd have other issues.  She'd probably go to Rivain and let the rest of Thedas sort its own problems out.

[Evilnor]

At least in DAO, mages seemed to be the most versatile characters out there. Heck, progress far enough and unlock it, and they can even wear plate and tank! (absolutely love my arcane warrior) I could never side with the templars in Broken Circle for two reasons: 1) it never felt right to forfeit all their lives when they're the real victims here and 2) practical reasoning of they're 1 of 2 ranged fighter groups you can even get for the last battle. How much do you really need more melee guys who can't all even fit around the things you're fighting?

But I also agree that they did a good job of impressing to me, at least, that mages are individuals, and not necessarily all of them want freedom. Granted, it's shown that most do, when push comes to shove and they can see where not having freedom can lead them (i.e. death). As with any person, though, one set of political views isn't going to speak for the whole group. I almost threw my hands up in disgust at the mention of the word "politics" when I went through my mage origin. I thought "oh great, here come the republicans and democrats with magic!" The more localized issues seem somehow easier to stomach, though, especially when we're thrown in the middle of it to decide the fate of the world.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

I mostly played mages and consider elf mage my "official" Warden.  The characters I liked best were my Andrastian Tower mage and a Dalish mage I created via a mod and wrote quite a bit about.

I think playing different kinds of mages has shaped my outlook most.  It's given me the idea that they are not all alike, and therefore no one political viewpoint can claim to represent them, let alone one man (or man-spirit synthesis as the case may be).  I don't think either of my primary mages would be happy about the mage revolution.  Andrastian chancellor of Ferelden would be horrified.  Dalish mage would shake her head, but her clan was decimated by Merrill, so she'd have other issues.  She'd probably go to Rivain and let the rest of Thedas sort its own problems out.

I remember your Dalish Warden story, I replied to you once about it. I made the comment about the Warden being the kwisatz haderach at FF.Net. Your Dalish Warden would head to the semi-colony of clans on the border of Rivain?

I've gone through the different Origins as well, with the Dwarven Noble being pretty amusing. Wynne and Finn provide alternative outlooks on life in the Circle Tower, although even Wynne concedes that it's a prison and an oppressive place. My canon Warden had asked for his people to be given their independence, became Arl of Amaranthine, and left with Morrigan into the Eluvian. Given King Alistair protecting apostates from the templars, it would seem that the nation is probably the most ideal to endure the mage revolution (with a pro-mage leader possibly ruling). I'd imagine Morrigan's opinion about the Circle mages is going to change after they emancipated themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

[ladyofpayne]

sweetcandyrain.deviantart.com/art/DA2-A-Second-Chance-212915385
Please tell me how I can get here images. Bb code?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

My default solutions for any problem in Dragon Age are

1. Ask the Dalish
2. Flee to Rivain

It would be interesting if the third game wasn't actually set in Orlais, but was all about preventing the one sane country in this stupid world from becoming collateral damage in this huge, multi-sided conflict that is coming. Rivain! Where the mages are free, the Elves are friendly, and the streets are paved with cheese! 

When I was wondering aloud earlier how the Origins story affected the view of Anders and the Chantry, I was thinking of the player's view rather than the character's, but it's interesting to see that everyone naturally went to their Warden. Makes sense.

Maybe I'm not a revolutionary because I played Dalish first, maybe I played Dalish first because I'm a revolutionary. I do remember that they said they thought the decision not to kill all mages in DA:O was too obvious, and they wanted to make it more difficult this time. They succeeded, apparently.

I had some sort of other profound thought when I was making this post, but it's gone now.


(Oh, and to post images here? From deviantart, go to the image, right-click it and select "view image." then copy the URL of the image itself here, and put it between {img} {/img} brackets only with  straight brackets rather than curly. For instance, {img}http://fc09.devianta...rik9.jpg{/img}  just change curly brackets to straight [ ] and you're good to go.)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ElleMullineux wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Maybe I'm not a revolutionary because I played Dalish first, maybe I played Dalish first because I'm a revolutionary. I do remember that they said they thought the decision not to kill all mages in DA:O was too obvious, and they wanted to make it more difficult this time. They succeeded, apparently.

I played the human nobel first (and she's my canon), never completed DAO with a mage (couldn't stand the combat), and whilst I like the city elf origin I'm not overly impressed with the Dalish; they're a bit too twee/traditional fantasty fare for my liking. So ultimately I came to DA2 with no strong feelings about mages aside from 'they can get possessed' and 'I hate the fade'.  And the injustices? Well, they're everywhere. Everyone gets dumped on in Thedas, from a great and ghastly height.
I was impressed to have been swayed so strongly by the game and the writing. Admittedly my first play through I did as diplo compromise rogue Hawke so you didn't really see the full quota of crazy from either side, but by the start of Act 3 I was firmly in the mage camp without even thinking about it, and by the time Jenga rolled around it  wasn't even a question of which side I would choose. It just seemed the 'right' choice to me.
Now this may be my natural dislike of militiary/state authority/oppressive regimes (waves Amnesty International flag), it maybe that I have a wooly and sliding scale of morality, but I do think it's possible to play through purely as human and still firmly agree with Anders stance. And I think it's one of the things that makes the game compelling, it would feel so cheap if only another oppressed minority could understand/agree with his stance.

Oh, I definitely wasn't meaning to imply that it was required that you play a mage/elf to side with the mages, I was just wondering if it helped. So many people outside the Anders thread seem to have never even considered the Chantry's oppression of elves or mages as proof that the Chantry was deeply corrupt at this point, and I can't understand how they could play through both games without seeing the violence inherent in the system, so to speak.

I agree that the Dalish are, on their surface, very stereotypical-seeming. But I absolutely love the twist that they're trying to preserve and recover cultural heritage in a world that wants them to assimilate... and assimilate in a way that makes them implicitly subordinate. It's their "we have this knowledge and we are going to try to keep it for as long as possible" thing that appeals to me more than their "let's live in the woods and frolic" thing, if that makes sense.

I do like that Anders mentions the whole "hey, you know who else is oppressed? Elves!" thing offhand, but I wish that parallel was drawn more clearly and directly somewhere. Because while people can come up with all sorts of great reasons that mages should be oppressed, there's absolutely no reason or excuse for what has been done to the city elves. I think it's pretty important to understand that the Chantry doesn't just have a history of oppressing the dangerous, they have a history of oppressing anyone who is even borderline inconvenient.

I like the Dalish and Duster origins for the whole "viewing the system from outside the system" aspect, and when it comes to mages in particular I guess I initially assumed that being Dalish would give you a radically different perspective. Dwarfs would start out with a neutral position, city elves/humans/and mages would start out thinking 'oh, the tower. yeah, that's in place for our safety,' and Dalish elves would start out by saying "whoa whoa whoa, you guys lock up your mages? why?" 

But it seems I was likely overthinking. My second character is a Cousland, and it's not like she's anti-mage, and none of my Hawkes are capable of siding with the Templars at the very end... not even the one who spent the whole game just wanting to be Viscount.

[ReiSilver]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
*snip*

I got some different views on my first and second playthroughs as well. I started with a circle mage since I love playing a spell casting class and that was the only way to do it. Through my Surana's eyes the Tower was both home and gilded cage as Morrigan so rightly put it. I played my Surana as she couldn't remember life before the circle and so wasn't too bothered by being stuck in one building and didn't have especially strong feelings against the chantry, the thing that got to her was the tranquil and that just really got hammered home with Jowan being sent back to get tranquiled, the whole journey became eye opening and lead her to be more anti-circle by the end but still with no particular beef with the Chantry.

Then I played Dalish, learned about the Exalted March on the Dales and the deal with City elves: Convert to our religion or we'll kick you out of the slum we so generously gave you. My Mahariel became fiercely anti-chantry and became interesting to play as, while he was part of a minority, there was a sort of privileged aspect to him from growing up with the Dalish where he just couldn't understand why City Elves and circle mages would just roll over and take the abuse heaped on them rather then running away or fighting back. (He warmed up to Anders very quickly in Awakening) I agree completely that while the Dalish may be the closest to 'traditional' elves as we're going to get in Dragon Age the fact that they're still a 'fallen' race trying to keep what's left of their culture alive while having no safe places to stay in for very long makes them incredibly new and interesting to me, as well as the extended family and nomadic culture they've grown into.

(my Mahariel was still a bit of a jerk and probably would have high fived Anders for blowing up the Chantry... "And nothing of value was lost" *facepalm* My Surana on the other hand would be more concerned with it making things worse)

[kromify]

 religion and politics have mixed up into a gigantic mess. when will people learn!?! maybe the circles wouldn't be so bad if the chantry didn't control them, and being a templar was a job, not a vocation. even better if the mages families were the templars - added incentive not to kill them... or more incentive... uh     never mind me  

- considering my aliena cousland just razed the circle i think she might marderknife anders. she doesn't really care about their plight, but that's because she's privileged and ignorant. maybe anders could convert her in awakenings. we'll see

- taryn amell is a manipulative cold biatch who hates the circle - no problems there   

- kallian tabris sees another minority group

- machafuso mahariel... i dunno what i chose. machafuko means chaos; you never know what your gonna get. i think pining for the clan and the trauma of the joining drove her a bit bonkers  (i adore names that mean something; i do it for d&d characters all the time

> my sympathies mainly lie in the mage and city elf origins... and i never kill anders. maybe you're on to something 

[Amondra]

ElleMullineux wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Maybe I'm not a revolutionary because I played Dalish first, maybe I played Dalish first because I'm a revolutionary. I do remember that they said they thought the decision not to kill all mages in DA:O was too obvious, and they wanted to make it more difficult this time. They succeeded, apparently.

I played the human nobel first (and she's my canon), never completed DAO with a mage (couldn't stand the combat), and whilst I like the city elf origin I'm not overly impressed with the Dalish; they're a bit too twee/traditional fantasty fare for my liking. So ultimately I came to DA2 with no strong feelings about mages aside from 'they can get possessed' and 'I hate the fade'.  And the injustices? Well, they're everywhere. Everyone gets dumped on in Thedas, from a great and ghastly height.
I was impressed to have been swayed so strongly by the game and the writing. Admittedly my first play through I did as diplo compromise rogue Hawke so you didn't really see the full quota of crazy from either side, but by the start of Act 3 I was firmly in the mage camp without even thinking about it, and by the time Jenga rolled around it  wasn't even a question of which side I would choose. It just seemed the 'right' choice to me.
Now this may be my natural dislike of militiary/state authority/oppressive regimes (waves Amnesty International flag), it maybe that I have a wooly and sliding scale of morality, but I do think it's possible to play through purely as human and still firmly agree with Anders stance. And I think it's one of the things that makes the game compelling, it would feel so cheap if only another oppressed minority could understand/agree with his stance.

Oh, I definitely wasn't meaning to imply that it was required that you play a mage/elf to side with the mages, I was just wondering if it helped. So many people outside the Anders thread seem to have never even considered the Chantry's oppression of elves or mages as proof that the Chantry was deeply corrupt at this point, and I can't understand how they could play through both games without seeing the violence inherent in the system, so to speak.

<snip>

I do like that Anders mentions the whole "hey, you know who else is oppressed? Elves!" thing offhand, but I wish that parallel was drawn more clearly and directly somewhere. Because while people can come up with all sorts of great reasons that mages should be oppressed, there's absolutely no reason or excuse for what has been done to the city elves. I think it's pretty important to understand that the Chantry doesn't just have a history of oppressing the dangerous, they have a history of oppressing anyone who is even borderline inconvenient. 

<snip> ... I guess I initially assumed that being Dalish would give you a radically different perspective. Dwarfs would start out with a neutral position, city elves/humans/and mages would start out thinking 'oh, the tower. yeah, that's in place for our safety,' and Dalish elves would start out by saying "whoa whoa whoa, you guys lock up your mages? why?" 

But it seems I was likely overthinking. My second character is a Cousland, and it's not like she's anti-mage, and none of my Hawkes are capable of siding with the Templars at the very end... not even the one who spent the whole game just wanting to be Viscount.

I think the difficulty some people have with Anders and his character is that he isn't easy or simple. He doesn't fit in with the stereotypical good or bad guy, and I guess a lot of people feel betrayed by his actions and are taking it very personally, rather than viewing it as a majestic piece of writing. That and some people just don't like to delve into the delicious twistiness, they just don't want to look at the game any deeper than surface level (which is why the magical handwave of possessed by a spirit vs lyrium idol exists). I've said it before, but I do think the brainiacs of BSN seem to live here. I am genuinely terrified of some of the other threads

The city elves are a wonderful example of RL ghetto's, and I'm sure there is something about non-elves living in the alienages as well (can't remember exact bits -sorry!). Initially they're segregated away into undesirable areas, but then it becomes a case of they wouldn't want to leave it anyway and then reclaim and celebrate their seperateness. The tensions in DAO were fantastic for this, yet in DA2 it took a bit of a back seat (apart from the elf converts to the Qun which I thought was really interesting).

I always found the Dalish just didn't care about what anyone else did - they were very isolationist. Which is fine up to a point, but by not wanting to even interact (understandably to be fair) they seem to be dooming themselves to always be in conflict with anyone they meet. It's a bit like with the mages in that they keep/ are kept so seperate they have no way to educate people about what they really are and foster any sort of understanding. Not that they probably care.

Chapter 13!!!!

[Amondra]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Chapter 13!!!!

Lol - Thank you

You made my morning with it! I was in such a bad mood as Word deleted all of chapter 20 on me! I was so pleased with the chapter and now I have to re-write it! Just thinking about it makes me want to Janders out on the damn thing!