Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 juin 2011 - 09:15 .
Is everyone who ever commits a violent act unable to do otherwise?CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There are other ways you could have someone go through this... this complete loss of the filters that enable one to ignore pain and poverty and injustice. Clockwork Orange-style brainwashing, or Candide-like devotion to a single unreasonable ideal. But I think that merging with a literal spirit of Justice is one of the better ways of going about it.
No, we're not, but I'm not going to argue about it so kindly drop it.ademska wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
He's an external force, and specifically a supernatural force, that allows a massive plot shift to happen that would not otherwise. To what extent it's a contrived development or one we didn't see coming- on that we can argue. I see it as contrived. Hence not particularly interesting.ademska wrote...
not really. a square is a type of rectangle, not all rectangles are squares. yeah, a deus ex is a type of plot device, and you could argue with some validity that justice in da2 is a plot device (though many including myself would disagree), but you're just outright incorrect to label him a deus ex. he simply does not fit the definition.
and semantics are 90% of philosophical arguments so
but we're in agreement he's not a deus ex machina
Modifié par Addai67, 13 juin 2011 - 09:19 .
Guest_ElleMullineux_*
Addai67 wrote...
I definitely can appreciate an ambiguous character. I am as bored by paladins as by evil villains. However, the problems I have with the story are more that it's not subtle at all, and any ambiguity in Anders' character is overshadowed by the fact that "a devil made him do it." So there's not enough of a complex moral situation. I felt like a lot of things in the DA2 story were too hyped and hyper, too extreme, to be able to enjoy it much.ElleMullineux wrote...
I think the difficulty some people have with Anders and his character is that he isn't easy or simple. He doesn't fit in with the stereotypical good or bad guy, and I guess a lot of people feel betrayed by his actions and are taking it very personally, rather than viewing it as a majestic piece of writing. That and some people just don't like to delve into the delicious twistiness, they just don't want to look at the game any deeper than surface level (which is why the magical handwave of possessed by a spirit vs lyrium idol exists).
leggywillow wrote...
I have answered the question of what Janders does after the Chantry explosion. He has clearly gone into young girls' fashion!
This store kills me, because I like to imagine Justice helping kids pick out clothing.
Justice: YOU LOOK UGLY IN PINK.
Little Girl:
Mother: <_<
Justice: WHAT? SHE IS OBVIOUSLY A "WINTER".
Well this goes back to what I was discussing earlier in the weekend, that I can't find any reason why a reasonably grounded person would get involved with someone like that. I could have, if I wanted to, probably rp'ed a character who did so for whatever reason, but when I played out Anders' romance I was so put off by the over-the-top breathy stuff that I just had to stop.ElleMullineux wrote...
The interesting and complex part I find most enjoyable is on the personal Hawke level. How do you reconcile that the man you have fallen in love with has a living embodiment of Justice (who on the friendmanced path only rears it's head once or twice, and never AT Hawke) in him which is driving him to a cause that he won't let tell you about because you're romancing him.
They had a ten year span and a character that had bridged Origins to DA2. An organically developed and more complex plot would have been much more to my liking, as I've said. But, that's not what they wanted to do and other people like the threesome aspect, so it's just a matter of personal preference.As for the purpose of Justice... before the merge Anders was being swayed to do something more for the mages. I think Justice acts as an accelerator and speeds up the process. The decision to blow up the chantry I think comes from Anders himself, Justice just gives him the focus and the drive to get it done. I don't view the possession as a bad thing, I think it makes him wonderfully unheimlich.
Modifié par Hill-Hurwitz, 13 juin 2011 - 09:52 .
Batteries wrote...
leggywillow wrote...
I have answered the question of what Janders does after the Chantry explosion. He has clearly gone into young girls' fashion!
This store kills me, because I like to imagine Justice helping kids pick out clothing.
Justice: YOU LOOK UGLY IN PINK.
Little Girl:
Mother: <_<
Justice: WHAT? SHE IS OBVIOUSLY A "WINTER".
Thank you for this. Very well summarized.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
The TL:DR for my last post:
Anders' story is, essentially this.
What if you were offered the power to combat injustice in exchange for stripping away your ability to ignore injustice?
All his character development and motivation can be based on that single riddle, that single hypothetical. And honestly, before this game... if you had offered me that deal, I would have taken it.
Now, I see the madness there. It is painful and beautiful.
Addai67 wrote...
It is more interesting to me to examine the motivations of someone who could have chosen differently, or who acted out of limited information that had unforeseen consequences, or who got caught up in a moment and acted out of purely human irrationality. Anders' story has that sort of complexity, but by DA2 the development is all over but the cryin and shoutin.
but I'm not going to argue about it so kindly drop it.
Ah. Well, by now it should be abundantly clear that there are in fact people who do not have this particular problem, many of whom are quite sane and reasonably grounded.Well this goes back to what I was discussing earlier in the weekend, that I can't find any reason why a reasonably grounded person would get involved with someone like that. I could have, if I wanted to, probably rp'ed a character who did so for whatever reason, but when I played out Anders' romance I was so put off by the over-the-top breathy stuff that I just had to stop.
So the problem I have, which is also with Merrill, is why Hawke should even touch that hot potato.
Addai67 wrote...
No, we're not, but I'm not going to argue about it so kindly drop it.ademska wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
He's an external force, and specifically a supernatural force, that allows a massive plot shift to happen that would not otherwise. To what extent it's a contrived development or one we didn't see coming- on that we can argue. I see it as contrived. Hence not particularly interesting.ademska wrote...
not really. a square is a type of rectangle, not all rectangles are squares. yeah, a deus ex is a type of plot device, and you could argue with some validity that justice in da2 is a plot device (though many including myself would disagree), but you're just outright incorrect to label him a deus ex. he simply does not fit the definition.
and semantics are 90% of philosophical arguments so
but we're in agreement he's not a deus ex machina
Well this goes back to what I was discussing earlier in the weekend, that I can't find any reason why a reasonably grounded person would get involved with someone like that.
Guest_ElleMullineux_*
Addai67 wrote...
Well this goes back to what I was discussing earlier in the weekend, that I can't find any reason why a reasonably grounded person would get involved with someone like that. I could have, if I wanted to, probably rp'ed a character who did so for whatever reason, but when I played out Anders' romance I was so put off by the over-the-top breathy stuff that I just had to stop.ElleMullineux wrote...
The interesting and complex part I find most enjoyable is on the personal Hawke level. How do you reconcile that the man you have fallen in love with has a living embodiment of Justice (who on the friendmanced path only rears it's head once or twice, and never AT Hawke) in him which is driving him to a cause that he won't let tell you about because you're romancing him.
So the problem I have, which is also with Merrill, is why Hawke should even touch that hot potato.
They had a ten year span and a character that had bridged Origins to DA2. An organically developed and more complex plot would have been much more to my liking, as I've said. But, that's not what they wanted to do and other people like the threesome aspect, so it's just a matter of personal preference.As for the purpose of Justice... before the merge Anders was being swayed to do something more for the mages. I think Justice acts as an accelerator and speeds up the process. The decision to blow up the chantry I think comes from Anders himself, Justice just gives him the focus and the drive to get it done. I don't view the possession as a bad thing, I think it makes him wonderfully unheimlich.
Modifié par ElleMullineux, 13 juin 2011 - 09:48 .
Addai67 wrote...
They had a ten year span and a character that had bridged Origins to DA2. An organically developed and more complex plot would have been much more to my liking, as I've said. But, that's not what they wanted to do and other people like the threesome aspect, so it's just a matter of personal preference.ElleMullineux wrote...
As for the purpose of Justice... before the merge Anders was being swayed to do something more for the mages. I think Justice acts as an accelerator and speeds up the process. The decision to blow up the chantry I think comes from Anders himself, Justice just gives him the focus and the drive to get it done. I don't view the possession as a bad thing, I think it makes him wonderfully unheimlich.
Well, uh... I did say it's a matter of personal taste. Bolded here for emphasis.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
They had a ten year span and a character that had bridged Origins to DA2. An organically developed and more complex plot would have been much more to my liking, as I've said. But, that's not what they wanted to do and other people like the threesome aspect, so it's just a matter of personal preference.ElleMullineux wrote...
As for the purpose of Justice... before the merge Anders was being swayed to do something more for the mages. I think Justice acts as an accelerator and speeds up the process. The decision to blow up the chantry I think comes from Anders himself, Justice just gives him the focus and the drive to get it done. I don't view the possession as a bad thing, I think it makes him wonderfully unheimlich.
See, this is the problem.
You consider this specific set of mechanics inorganic. I consider them organic. You consider them to lack complexity, I consider them far more interesting and complex than most stories. I feel they are far more organic and nuanced and true than petty realisms, more connected to the fundamental myths and questions of humanity. I just don't normally... say that, because it's a matter of personal taste.That's what gets my blood up here... is that the words you use to describe things you simply dislike are so pejorative, and definitive, rather than structured as to imply you're stating a preference based on nothing more than personal taste.
And in my discussion of ASoIaF I said several times that I was talking about the kind of stories that I like.For me sci fi and fantasy are about seeing human questions in a new way because you're seeing them in a setting that is unfamiliar enough that it forces you to think. The stories that I like are the human stories.SF&F is all about asking questions that can't be asked outside the bounds of the speculative.
In the DR you are asked to make a choice that does hinge on human weakness. That's an interesting choice. Simply being spectator to Anders' demise has a pathos of a kind, but not one that's very involving. Pour moi- double underlined and lit with sparklies in case anyone misses that phrase!!!I just don't see how you could consider the Archdemon, or Morrigan's Dark Ritual less of a problem than Justice/Vengeance. They're all artifical constructs that ask you to answer a question that doesn't exist in real life or normal psychology. They're all magical, mystical, definitively supernatural events that are necessary to asks questions that put the focus on one specific aspect of human nature.
Modifié par Addai67, 13 juin 2011 - 10:04 .
Guest_ElleMullineux_*
Miri1984 wrote...
My friend finished her blog post! It's HERE.
Basically, she's making the case that Anders' actions are a logical progression from his circumstances, and that people who claim he's insane and irrational are, basically, wrong! Which is what I think and something we've been discussing a lot here. Have a read, feel free to disagree in the comments (if you do, of course) she says she's been itching to have a good discussion about this for ages!
Miri1984 wrote...
My friend finished her blog post! It's HERE.
Basically, she's making the case that Anders' actions are a logical progression from his circumstances, and that people who claim he's insane and irrational are, basically, wrong! Which is what I think and something we've been discussing a lot here. Have a read, feel free to disagree in the comments (if you do, of course) she says she's been itching to have a good discussion about this for ages!
I have bookmarked this. Suffering from blogophobia means I cannot comment on-site though. It seems your friend's end conclusion is more radical than I'd have put it, but following its logic it is convincing and well put together, backed up by a good bit of evidence. (Does that mean I've been radicalized now? *grin* well, I've not been abused so far, your Chantries are safe with me).Miri1984 wrote...
My friend finished her blog post! It's HERE.
Basically, she's making the case that Anders' actions are a logical progression from his circumstances, and that people who claim he's insane and irrational are, basically, wrong! Which is what I think and something we've been discussing a lot here. Have a read, feel free to disagree in the comments (if you do, of course) she says she's been itching to have a good discussion about this for ages!
..
Modifié par Miri1984, 13 juin 2011 - 10:14 .
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*
Miri1984 wrote...
@Kromify She has an account. She says "Weeee'lll seeeeee ..."
Addai67 wrote...
Well this goes back to what I was discussing earlier in the weekend, that I can't find any reason why a reasonably grounded person would get involved with someone like that. I could have, if I wanted to, probably rp'ed a character who did so for whatever reason, but when I played out Anders' romance I was so put off by the over-the-top breathy stuff that I just had to stop.ElleMullineux wrote...
The interesting and complex part I find most enjoyable is on the personal Hawke level. How do you reconcile that the man you have fallen in love with has a living embodiment of Justice (who on the friendmanced path only rears it's head once or twice, and never AT Hawke) in him which is driving him to a cause that he won't let tell you about because you're romancing him.
Miri1984 wrote...
My friend finished her blog post! It's HERE.
Basically, she's making the case that Anders' actions are a logical progression from his circumstances, and that people who claim he's insane and irrational are, basically, wrong! Which is what I think and something we've been discussing a lot here. Have a read, feel free to disagree in the comments (if you do, of course) she says she's been itching to have a good discussion about this for ages!
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