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[Addai]

berelinde wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...
The interesting and complex part I find most enjoyable is on the personal Hawke level. How do you reconcile that the man you have fallen in love with has a living embodiment of Justice (who on the friendmanced path only rears it's head once or twice, and never AT Hawke) in him which is driving him to a cause that he won't let tell you about because you're romancing him.

Well this goes back to what I was discussing earlier in the weekend, that I can't find any reason why a reasonably grounded person would get involved with someone like that.  I could have, if I wanted to, probably rp'ed a character who did so for whatever reason, but when I played out Anders' romance I was so put off by the over-the-top breathy stuff that I just had to stop. 

You argued that that character lacked complexity. People presented you with multilayered analyses demonstrating how the romance went far beyond what was presented on the surface. You said that no, you would rather just read it straight. Um... yeah.

What I actually said I couldn't buy was that the romance was intended to be ironic, i.e. a parody of romantic tropes.  Judging by the squee here and elsewhere, I don't get the sense that many people do read it that way other than ipgd, so IMO my dubiousness about his theory can't be unusual.

This has been going on for days. You say that you want to be convinced of x (for a given value of x), but I am beginning to think that you are not looking for a reason to like it. It seems as if you are looking for justification for disliking it. You don't need it.

Preferences are what they are. There is no right or wrong. If we all liked the same thing, they would not have needed to include 8 romances in this game (4 characters, 2 paths per character).

No, I don't need convincing of anything.  Just discussing.  Anders is a character in the game story and not just a romance, so I don't think we only have to discuss him as a romance character, eh?  Or is it only fangirls allowed?

[Lady Dino]

Okay so I might be beating a dead horse but here's my thoughts on the whole Justice matter...

Do me a favor for a second and throw out all your pre-concived notions about Justice being a spirit or a demon or an abomination or w/e. Think of him instead as Anders' best friend. In fact to reinforce this I'm going to be calling him Joe instead of Justice for the duration of this post.

So, if we're looking at the two characters seperately then we need to look at their reactions to things seperately and the first time we see Joe and Anders really in action together is right after you meet Karl and the templars walk up. The first to react is Anders, he yells no, at the betrayal, at the tragedy that's befallen Karl and at the thought of becoming tranquil as well, then he falls to his knees, head in hands. Now before I go into Joe's reaction let's think about that for a second. Joe's best friend has just been betrayed by a now mentally dead friend and former lover AND is being confronted by one of his worst fears. Not only does Joe feel the anguish as if it were his own but he also understands that his friend has been hurt and is now being threatened. So Joe rises to defend him and to ensure that these monsters never hurt anyone else again. Because Joe is a warrior who is firecely loyal to his friends and fights for what he believes is right.

The next time we see Joe is in the "Dissent" quest, this is also the first time we see Joe and Anders really disagree. In the quest Joe gets upset upon seeing the templars, and more specifically Alrik, cornering a young mage. Anders holds Joe back from attacking, with a "No, this is their place", as hunting blood mages is a templars job and they manage to do some good by it, so Joe relents. Then we learn just what kind of a dick Alrik is and there is no stopping Joe. For the first time Joe uses Anders by force to achieve his own ends. Whether or not they kill the girl Anders is terrified. This is also the first clear instance we are shown in game of Joe's natural sense of justice being currupted by rage and thus labled as vengence. Because real vengence sees their enemy as a stain upon society and isn't satisfied with just killing the obvious threats, it's not satisfied when their friends and allys are dead, and it wont be satisfied until all like minded people are dead. And that's how Joe now sees not just the templars but also the chantry who allows such horrors to happen right under their noses. 


From there we get to talk to Anders about Joe's outburst. Anders is scared because he's never seen Joe react like that before. The last few times Joe got upset it was also partially in self defence as well as being angry on Anders behalf, but this time it was an out right need to kill acompanied by a level of rage Anders never thought his friend could reach. He's also worried because he knows that, that rage is also his own and only adds fuel to Joe's fire. Joe himself is probably feeling a bit reprimanded and agrees that he over reacted. This is not shown to us in game but I feel it's the only way Anders would be able to convince Joe to give up the mage cause for a while, despite Joe's inherent desire to help those in need.


If you followed the rival path, Anders is beginning to question not the cause it's self but what measures might be needed to achieve their goals. Joe believes that any sacrifice is worth the price if they can make things better for others and stop the injustices that are being comitted, Anders on the other hand is not so sure. In the final act Anders, if sufficiently pushed, will finally turn on Joe completely deciding that he'd rather wait and do things right than try to solve the issue with violence. But Joe's not a bigger picture person, even if he knows that doing things non-violently will be better in the end, as Anders comes to believe, he just can't let what's happening in Kirkwall slide, it goes against everything he believes in.


But you also need to take in to account that on the rival path Anders betrays Joe in a way. They joined forces to stop the injustices that are being comitted by the templars and the circle but now Anders says he wants to try to find some inconceivable comprimise while ignoring that everyday there are more and more victims. So, "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," Joe betrays Anders by doing the one thing he knows will hurt him the most. He forces hands, elimnates comprimise and puts them both on death row. Their friendship is shattered and both seek death as an escape from eachother.


On the friendship path their bond is strengthened and they both accept that war is just over the horizon. They are ready to make sacrifices, to do what they believe is right and to face the consequences together.


Sorry for the wall of text but I really wanted to share the inferences that I came to while playing the game and analyzing the two characters. Thanks for reading.

[berelinde]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Many people have offered their opinions other than ipgd that does not involve the romance being ironic. I'm honestly not sure what you're looking for.

Yeah, there's a lot of different ways to look at things, 99.4% of which are perfectly valid.

[Miri1984]

... reading over some of the previous posts... I don't play videogames to get a "grounded, stable and healthy relationship" out of my romances. I've got that. Don't need to roleplay one.

Also, my Hawkes are SOO not stable. As snarky Saoirse puts it to Varric "When have I ever given the impression that I'm turned off by crazy?" Me personally? I'd run a MILE. Saoirse? She thinks it's fantastic!

My point here, is that it's FICTION.

@Lady Dino Nicely put. And I'm now thinking of Justice as JJ. JOE JUSTICE

Modifié par Miri1984, 13 juin 2011 - 10:55 .

[ipgd]

Addai67 wrote...

What I actually said I couldn't buy was that the romance was intended to be ironic, i.e. a parody of romantic tropes.  Judging by the squee here and elsewhere, I don't get the sense that many people do read it that way other than ipgd, so IMO my dubiousness about his theory can't be unusual.

It's not a "parody" so much as a self-aware deconstruction of them. It's not really an opinion that it starts out very true to traditional romance tropes and then systematically exposes the very bad sides of them.

[ipgd]

ElleMullineux wrote...

And agreeing with ^^ doesn't mean you can't enjoy the other aspects of the character. They're not mutually exclusive.

Yes. It's not the only reason I like Anders as a character or romance, but it's certainly the most analytical, non-emotional basis for it and the principle reason why I appreciate it on a meta literary level (and it's also the reason that I am able to appreciate the things that would otherwise be repugnant to me in a romance, i.e. the over the top sap). Since you were not engaged on an emotional level, I imagined there wouldn't be a point attempting to justify it on that avenue.

Modifié par ipgd, 13 juin 2011 - 11:11 .

[ademska]

ipgd wrote...

It's not a "parody" so much as a self-aware deconstruction of them. It's not really an opinion that it starts out very true to traditional romance tropes and then systematically exposes the very bad sides of them.

the only matter of opinion involved in coming to your conclusion is how intentional that writing was



which, i mean, how could it not be?

[Addai]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Many people have offered their opinions other than ipgd that does not involve the romance being ironic. I'm honestly not sure what you're looking for.

LOL I'm just discussing, and not even really the romance in the past few pages, except to say (in response to someone's earlier post) that if the only emotional engagement with Anders' story can happen by falling in love with him, that's a non-starter.

@Miri, I like a certain amount of drama, too, but I suppose would draw some lines at possession and a guy threatening he could hurt you physically as well as emotionally if you pursue a relationship with him.  At that point, a romance is off before it begins.  Maybe if I had ground DA2 into the dust with as many playthroughs as I had with Origins, I could have worked out a roleplay angle that worked for me.  I highly doubt that's going to happen now.

[cmessaz]

Addai67 wrote...
No, I don't need convincing of anything.  Just discussing.  Anders is a character in the game story and not just a romance, so I don't think we only have to discuss him as a romance character, eh?  Or is it only fangirls allowed?

LOL....I seem to remember a similar post in the Alistair thread a while back.

[Aeowyn]

cmessaz wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
No, I don't need convincing of anything.  Just discussing.  Anders is a character in the game story and not just a romance, so I don't think we only have to discuss him as a romance character, eh?  Or is it only fangirls allowed?

LOL....I seem to remember a similar post in the Alistair thread a while back.

This. So much lol

[Zjarcal]

Aeowyn wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
No, I don't need convincing of anything.  Just discussing.  Anders is a character in the game story and not just a romance, so I don't think we only have to discuss him as a romance character, eh?  Or is it only fangirls allowed?

LOL....I seem to remember a similar post in the Alistair thread a while back.

This. So much lol

Oh, how familiar I was with all that... 

[ademska]

Addai67 wrote...

@Miri, I like a certain amount of drama, too, but I suppose would draw some lines at possession and a guy threatening he could hurt you physically as well as emotionally if you pursue a relationship with him.  At that point, a romance is off before it begins.  Maybe if I had ground DA2 into the dust with as many playthroughs as I had with Origins, I could have worked out a roleplay angle that worked for me.  I highly doubt that's going to happen now.

you could play as a hardcore revolutionary perhaps also slightly unstable guy so anders doesn't do that i'll-hurt-you nonsense,

i am

just saying

:innocent:

oh gosh, self, you have got to stop bringing that up.  it is just such a strange point of contention for me, especially since i can't reconcile it in-game, which for bioware is quite rare and tbh drives me absolutely batty.

regardless, while i respect your reasons for personally not wanting to play a character who gets involved with anders, because they're totally valid and sound, i would also appreciate it if you didn't dismiss those of us who do as fangirl squee-ers.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I think it's pretty clear it's not just fangirls allowed. KoP managed fine, and that guy... well he's got a worldview that is mighty specific.

The issue is that when someone says "I prefer characters who are more complex, but that's just my opinion." The implicaiton from a statement like that is that

1. Anders is less complex
2. preferring complexity is the opinion, not whether or not Anders is complex

And that can fray a nerve or two. Mine included, rather embarassingly. I'm having rather a crap week, heh.

I've rephrased this a dozen times without it getting a specific response, so I hope to separate it from my normal way-too-long rants.

Anders' story is all about a man who made a choice. It's a very human, very real choice... the problem is, he made it before he met the player, and I think that's where the difficulty lies. In its absolutely most basic form, the choice was this:

"When the time comes, are you prepared to do what is necessary? Because if you will not, I will, and you will enable me to do so." 

And Anders' answer was "Yes."

The arc in the game is about Anders discovering, to his horror, what that choice means after he's made it.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 juin 2011 - 11:29 .

[LobselVith8]

maxernst wrote...

ademska wrote...

it doesn't require maxing, just being 50% friendship.  which, if you bring him along even some of the time, by act 2 is VERY easy to do.

on a playthrough that was pro-mage but more pro-money, where i took rivalrly hits with him for dialogue options and didn't even romance him, i still easily had the 50%.  i think i've only killed her once, on purpose.

I thought it was max, but even so, my Iain still wasn't going to bring him along much because he has two other mage options with more stable personalities.  It became a little more tempting to bring him in in Act 2 because I lost Bethany and Merriill can't cast a simple healing spell, but he just seemed too risky a companion to hang around with in a city crawling with Templars, particularly given that the Templars have a hostage to use against me.  I had troubles justifying bringing along some of the DA:O companions as well, but you can argue that the Warden needs any help he can get.  Hawke's circumstances are much less desperate.

By justifying, you mean from a roleplaying perspective because you disliked them, or justifying bringing some companions with you because of the social climate of Ferelden? Because if you mean the latter, The Warden is already a criminal according to Teyrn Loghain, who is the acting Regent under Queen Anora. I tended to look at it from the perspective of a pragmatic Warden who wasn't going to turn down allies because of the threat of the Fifth Blight, which included the assassin Zevran and the general of armies, Loghain Mac Tir. Alistair addresses the comment you made about the Wardens accepting help from unlikely sources when he brings up that Morrigan is an apostate, and it's one I agree with.

Hawke's situation is not as desperate as The Warden's, but he certainly is in a tough position in Act I because he's either an apostate, or related to one. I actually thought Anders was the safest mage in the group because he likely still had documentation proving he's a Grey Warden, unlike apostate Hawke (or Bethany) and Merrill. I imagine it's how he was able to enter Kirkwall in the first place.

As for Anders' personality, given what Carver, Bethany, and Leandra say, I always felt like Anders was very reminiscent of Malcolm Hawke. Carver makes it clear he's heard the pro-mage talks before, and Bethany even outright says Anders reminds her of Malcolm. I thought there was good reason for Hawke to trust Anders if he agreed with his father's perspective about mages.

Addai67 wrote...

Well this goes back to what I was discussing earlier in the weekend, that I can't find any reason why a reasonably grounded person would get involved with someone like that.  I could have, if I wanted to, probably rp'ed a character who did so for whatever reason, but when I played out Anders' romance I was so put off by the over-the-top breathy stuff that I just had to stop.

So the problem I have, which is also with Merrill, is why Hawke should even touch that hot potato. 

I think trust plays a significant factor. My apostate Hawke befriended and agreed with Anders' outlook on the mage situation, and trusted and romanced Merrill.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 juin 2011 - 11:28 .

[Melca36]

Miri1984 wrote...

... reading over some of the previous posts... I don't play videogames to get a "grounded, stable and healthy relationship" out of my romances. I've got that. Don't need to roleplay one.

Also, my Hawkes are SOO not stable. As snarky Saoirse puts it to Varric "When have I ever given the impression that I'm turned off by crazy?" Me personally? I'd run a MILE. Saoirse? She thinks it's fantastic!

My point here, is that it's FICTION.

@Lady Dino Nicely put. And I'm now thinking of Justice as JJ. JOE JUSTICE

Amen!! I agree 100%

Games are meant as an escape. They are fiction!  People need to remember that!

[Miri1984]

@Addai you're completely entitled to your opinion, but I will join some others who have suggested that the language you use to discuss it seems to dismiss people who do like him as somehow less intelligent than you are.

This is an overall impression from the tone of your posts, and it could simply be your writing style, but it is, I think, the main reason you're getting so many strong responses to your opinions.

[Sarielle]

I do wonder, though, if the fact that you can't end the romance after you have Anders move in (I assume it's this way for him like the others) is a deliberate move on Bioware's part. The "You made your bed, now lie in it" so you're stuck with him through the darker side of obsession after getting the rainbows and kittens part.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Lady Dino Nicely put. And I'm now thinking of Justice as JJ. JOE JUSTICE

God damn you guys.

"I'M TRYING TO RUN A MANIFESTO HERE. I WANT PICTURES ON MY DESK. PICTURES OF MEREDITH!"

[SurelyForth]

ademska wrote...

you could play as a hardcore revolutionary perhaps also slightly unstable guy so anders doesn't do that i'll-hurt-you nonsense,

i am

just saying

:innocent:

oh gosh, self, you have got to stop bringing that up.  it is just such a strange point of contention for me, especially since i can't reconcile it in-game, which for bioware is quite rare and tbh drives me absolutely batty.

regardless, while i respect your reasons for personally not wanting to play a character who gets involved with anders, because they're totally valid and sound, i would also appreciate it if you didn't dismiss those of us who do as fangirl squee-ers.

Or, if you don't want to play a Male Hawke, just be sarcastic in the first act and hold off on flirting until Act 2. 

As for reconciling...I've kinda got a grip on it now. He cares for Hawke and knows that he's probably not fit to be a partner. He barely believes he deserves friendship and, even though he's attracted to her he's unwilling at that point to indulge in something he knows will only end in betrayal/heartbreak/disappointment. Plus, since he doesn't make a move until Hawke has seen him at his worst, it's not too difficult to roleplay that he's holding off on a relationship until he knows that Hawke knows how bad it really is. He doesn't want to take advantage of a kind-hearted Hawke (which is whom he's warning off) who is probably impressed at his whole selfless healer persona. I find it as annoying as hell, personally, yet I can frame it in a way that makes it not sexist or weird.  

And, while I wish that ladies got the same dialogue as dudes (which is why I skip the Act 1 flirting now)  I can't see guys going for what he tells F!Hawke at all and apparently BW thinks female players can't handle finding out that their cute new dude friend had a male lover. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 juin 2011 - 11:48 .

[Hill-Hurwitz]

Lady Dino wrote...
*snipped for length*

I agree with you on so many accounts. You share many of the conclusions I came to with Justice. There's much room for interperation, given that we get to see so little of the spirit himself, but I do tend to think their relationship day-to-day is still friendly. It's when they've lost control over themselves, when Justice manifests in the animate fury known as Vengeance, that Anders specifically does not consider him a friend. Otherwise, on the friendship path, he calls the spirit Justice, and he's a friend that no templar can take away from Anders; he will never be abandoned and loney again.

Modifié par Hill-Hurwitz, 13 juin 2011 - 11:54 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Romantically, I belong to the tiny minority of people who would actually date Anders if I were in Thedas. Not in the real world, because there's no real world equivalent to "spirit of justice in your head." Though... even if we were in the real world, if he could convincingly go glowy and blue... I'd at least entertain the possibility that his powers were legitimately supernatural. I'd give him a chance to prove it. Friends of mine have said that this makes me insane. I say that the ability to ignore the fact that there's probably something preternatural about a guy who can turn blue and rip a murderer's head off with his bare hands is equally insane. But never mind that.

I've had multiple exes pull the "I'm a bad guy" or "I'm an ****" card before I dated them. Almost invariably, they turn out to be significantly nicer than the ones who say that things are going to be all hearts and lolipops. We all have a limited relationship sample size, and I do tend to have killer instincts when it comes to red flags, but all in all, the guys who are worried about hurting you can end up being nicer than the ones who swear up and down that it can never happen. I've had the former turn out to be unambigously good sweethearts, and the latter turn out to be... not good things.

Sometimes, a dude just needs a lady to care about him. Show him some kindness. Sometimes this can manifest as desperation, sure. Or clinginess. And sometimes they're asking for more than you can give, more than you want to give. You just have to be able to tell when that's happening and not go there. Not every needy guy is created equal.

Now, the first time Anders did something that I couldn't handle, I wouldn't wait around for things to get better. I'd be out of there, and getting him whatever help possible as soon as I could. The danger in a relationship like that is thinking "things will get better, I can change them."

But I don't... see anything wrong with seeing someone who is troubled, making a judgement call, and saying "I'm a big girl, I can probably handle that. And if I can't, I'll know, and I'll leave." Because the one thing that Anders definitely would not do is stop Hawke from leaving, if she wanted to.