57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Addai you're completely entitled to your opinion, but I will join some others who have suggested that the language you use to discuss it seems to dismiss people who do like him as somehow less intelligent than you are.

What?  Not my intent.  I think it always goes without saying that there's different strokes etc.

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

But I don't... see anything wrong with seeing someone who is troubled, making a judgement call, and saying "I'm a big girl, I can probably handle that. And if I can't, I'll know, and I'll leave." Because the one thing that Anders definitely would not do is stop Hawke from leaving, if she wanted to.

No, he'll throw a manipulative fit and accuse you of betraying him.  Which is his response when he asks to move in and Hawke responds "I'm not ready for that."  That was the point when I abandoned my character, so I'm not sure if he comes back and apologizes.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

But I don't... see anything wrong with seeing someone who is troubled, making a judgement call, and saying "I'm a big girl, I can probably handle that. And if I can't, I'll know, and I'll leave." Because the one thing that Anders definitely would not do is stop Hawke from leaving, if she wanted to.

No, he'll throw a manipulative fit and accuse you of betraying him.  Which is his response when he asks to move in and Hawke responds "I'm not ready for that."  That was the point when I abandoned my character, so I'm not sure if he comes back and apologizes.

Well, you're not just not wanting him to move in at that point...you're outright rejecting him. It's the same as Merrill, I think. My guess they were going for realism on a budget and didn't want to do a separate cutscene for the co-habitation. 

His view of the relationship at that point is that it's absolutely committed. That's why he's been hedging for so long. He needs for Hawke to know exactly who and what he is, and he needs Hawke to be certain that he's the one s/he absolutely wants because, frankly, he doesn't want to be betrayed either.  I don't understand why it's so hard to get why he'd be hurt and feel used if Hawke gets to that point and, after waiting three years and being able to overlook his spirit possession, rejects him after he's all "Welp, here's my heart". 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 juin 2011 - 12:54 .

[Addai]

It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now. 

Modifié par Addai67, 14 juin 2011 - 01:35 .

[LT123]

Addai67 wrote...

It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now. 

I giggle every time, because "I want you right here, until the day we die! :wub:" sounds absolutely hilarious coming from someone who moments before responded to a declaration of love with "Want a sandwich?"

[cmessaz]

He's very emotional...I kinda wanted to yell something at the screen when Fenris left my Hawke after snogging her.

Edit: Sorry...that sounded far worse than I intended. But, she felt pretty betrayed herself, IDK it's totally understandable for me. I also assume more goes on that what we see, like before that particular convo. Which does suck tbh.

Modifié par cmessaz, 14 juin 2011 - 01:47 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Addai67 wrote...

It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now. 

No no. This is perfectly understandable.

I  will agree that there is a major flaw in the Anders romance... and that is that a substantial part of it seems to happen off-screen. People here have expressed some discontent with the "after sex, no to moving in = breakup" scene. It's partially due to limited dialogue: a lot of people have taken the "but we talked about this, all the things you said..." to means that it's heavily implied that Anders and Hawke have had a conversation before about Anders not wanting to be in a casual relationship.

I do wish he actually said this in some completely unavoidable dialogue earlier in the relationship. I think it's implied, but it should be explicit.

The best justification I can have is this:  at this point, you've known him for three years. And even with the bare minimum of flirting, you've suggested that you'd protect him from the Templars. Perhaps your Hawke was joking about that and Anders took it the wrong way.

Still, that's not a good enough excuse, but I'm going to chalk it up to slightly rushed dev cycles and not enough LI conversation stuff.

[ipgd]

Addai67 wrote...

It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now. 

It's not that much of a shocker. I mean, he spent 3 years trying to not bang Hawke and telegraphs his clingy dependancy in a big way. Just imagine him as that 15 year old girl who loses her virginity to a guy who doesn't call her back and that's Anders's emotional state after you refuse him there.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now. 

Although I should also shut up, too, I won't. LOL 

He basically gives you one last out before he sleeps with you- you can send him away before sex. If you turn him away then, he takes it well. 

And you're acting like these things are meant to be taken at face value. Him asking to move in immediately after sex is a game mechanic...he and Merrill move in (because what Hawke with a heart would leave them in their hovels for three years?) and BW was too cheap to give them another conversation to work it out. The fact that they don't officially show up until Act 3 makes it clear that it's supposed to be viewed as a more natural progression than it actually is in game.

Also, I guess I'm childish/weird because I really don't mind Anders asking to move in there, and Fenris blowing Hawke off and refusing to talk about it FOR THREE YEARS makes me want to punch him a little. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 juin 2011 - 01:59 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I also agree that a guy asking to move in too early is less offputting for me personally than a guy not being willing to talk about a thing for three years.

If you won't talk about a thing for... a month, at that point I'm pretty much going to have decided that you're not interested anymore. If you come back to talk to me later, and I happen to be single at the time, then OK. That's fine, I'm forgiving.

And I also agree with the game mechanic thing: should have been two different scenes probably, but it was supposed to feel more natural. I guess if you're forcing a romance that you're not actually interested in, you're willing to make fewer leaps.

[ejoslin]

ipgd wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now. 

It's not that much of a shocker. I mean, he spent 3 years trying to not bang Hawke and telegraphs his clingy dependancy in a big way. Just imagine him as that 15 year old girl who loses her virginity to a guy who doesn't call her back and that's Anders's emotional state after you refuse him there.

I took him asking to move in so completely differently than what is being discussed here.   To me it seemed both manipulative and sleazy.  IIRC (and it's been a few months since I played) it went something like,

"I love you.  I've spent three years aching for you every night!  Really sweetheart, I mean it!  Ummm, btw baby, I'm having some issues with my place at the moment and I really can't stay there so I need another place to crash.  Can I move in with you?"  This is a sleazy guy move that more than one friend of mine has fallen for.  And his reaction if you turn him down is totally in line with it being sleazy rather than loving.

And unfortunately, the women I know who have fallen for that really sounded kind of the same as Hawke did when talking about their new man :/

[ReiSilver]

Does anyone else wish they could invite Anders to use the Hawke estate basement when they're not romancing him? I played a Hawke who was just-friends with Anders, with no interest in him romantically, but it just seemed weird to me when back in act 1 the Hawke Estate basement was pretty huge, if Hawke didn't want Anders moving into his bedroom there was still all that space he could use. My Hawke would have totally been ok with that, helping a friend and fellow apostate out when the Templars are worrying him.
In fact there would probably have been room for half the companions to room in the Hawke Estate... and then we could have a sitcom!

[FieryDove]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

 and saying "I'm a big girl, I can probably handle that. And if I can't, I'll know, and I'll leave." Because the one thing that Anders definitely would not do is stop Hawke from leaving, if she wanted to.

But is this true? Once with Anders he is stuck like glue...or so it would seem.

I did a run recently and at the end of the game told him I wouldn't be going with him (Hawke felt Anders didn't trust fully so without trust there is nothing left) and according to Varric -Anders still stays with hawke. It confused me...a bug or not?

The character named Anders has many layers and is a very interesting. (Glowing companions are always cool in my book as well.)

How much longer are we stuck in yuck?

[ipgd]

ejoslin wrote...

I took him asking to move in so completely differently than what is being discussed here.   To me it seemed both manipulative and sleazy.  IIRC (and it's been a few months since I played) it went something like,

"I love you.  I've spent three years aching for you every night!  Really sweetheart, I mean it!  Ummm, btw baby, I'm having some issues with my place at the moment and I really can't stay there so I need another place to crash.  Can I move in with you?"  This is a sleazy guy move that more than one friend of mine has fallen for.  And his reaction if you turn him down is totally in line with it being sleazy rather than loving.

And unfortunately, the women I know who have fallen for that really sounded kind of the same as Hawke did when talking about their new man :/

While he does obviously benefit from moving in with Hawke, I really don't think that's the sole thing on his mind. He's pretty terrible at hiding it when he's actually being deliberately manipulative, so I think he really just is that intense and clingy.

[ademska]

ejoslin wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now. 

It's not that much of a shocker. I mean, he spent 3 years trying to not bang Hawke and telegraphs his clingy dependancy in a big way. Just imagine him as that 15 year old girl who loses her virginity to a guy who doesn't call her back and that's Anders's emotional state after you refuse him there.

I took him asking to move in so completely differently than what is being discussed here.   To me it seemed both manipulative and sleazy.  IIRC (and it's been a few months since I played) it went something like,

"I love you.  I've spent three years aching for you every night!  Really sweetheart, I mean it!  Ummm, btw baby, I'm having some issues with my place at the moment and I really can't stay there so I need another place to crash.  Can I move in with you?"  This is a sleazy guy move that more than one friend of mine has fallen for.  And his reaction if you turn him down is totally in line with it being sleazy rather than loving.

And unfortunately, the women I know who have fallen for that really sounded kind of the same as Hawke did when talking about their new man :/

i understand why some people view aspects of the move-in as manipulative, but it's not as if it's nore foreshadowed.  the beginning of act 2 has anders anxious because templars are getting closer to him. a couple of other dialogues and comments he makes before you sleep together has him remarking that maybe he should find a new place to live/hide.

i really can't at all see the scene as sleazy.  even in a male hawke playthrough where the dialogue is different, but especially in a female hawke playthrough, anders has spent three years warning hawke that getting in a relationship with him might not be the best idea.  hawke disagrees or doesn't care, sleeps with him anyway, and is quite nice about the whole thing.  anders is potentially in acute templar danger, why would he NOT pitch the idea to someone who, to him, has at this point shown consistent dedication and compassion and love blahdeblah for him?

that's v sappy and is of course all deconstructed later but at that moment in time, it makes sense enough to me.

anders is manipulative, but i wouldn't call him sleazy.

[ademska]

FieryDove wrote...

I did a run recently and at the end of the game told him I wouldn't be going with him (Hawke felt Anders didn't trust fully so without trust there is nothing left) and according to Varric -Anders still stays with hawke. It confused me...a bug or not?

p sure that's a bug.  the entire "and so and so stayed with hawke" varric dialogue is bugged.  for instance, killing anders will still net you that dialogue. also, if you sleep with isabela before anyone else, drop her like a hot potato, and finish someone else's romance, he'll say isabela goes with.

[maxernst]

LobselVith8 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

ademska wrote...

it doesn't require maxing, just being 50% friendship.  which, if you bring him along even some of the time, by act 2 is VERY easy to do.

on a playthrough that was pro-mage but more pro-money, where i took rivalrly hits with him for dialogue options and didn't even romance him, i still easily had the 50%.  i think i've only killed her once, on purpose.

I thought it was max, but even so, my Iain still wasn't going to bring him along much because he has two other mage options with more stable personalities.  It became a little more tempting to bring him in in Act 2 because I lost Bethany and Merriill can't cast a simple healing spell, but he just seemed too risky a companion to hang around with in a city crawling with Templars, particularly given that the Templars have a hostage to use against me.  I had troubles justifying bringing along some of the DA:O companions as well, but you can argue that the Warden needs any help he can get.  Hawke's circumstances are much less desperate.

By justifying, you mean from a roleplaying perspective because you disliked them, or justifying bringing some companions with you because of the social climate of Ferelden? Because if you mean the latter, The Warden is already a criminal according to Teyrn Loghain, who is the acting Regent under Queen Anora. I tended to look at it from the perspective of a pragmatic Warden who wasn't going to turn down allies because of the threat of the Fifth Blight, which included the assassin Zevran and the general of armies, Loghain Mac Tir. Alistair addresses the comment you made about the Wardens accepting help from unlikely sources when he brings up that Morrigan is an apostate, and it's one I agree with.

Hawke's situation is not as desperate as The Warden's, but he certainly is in a tough position in Act I because he's either an apostate, or related to one. I actually thought Anders was the safest mage in the group because he likely still had documentation proving he's a Grey Warden, unlike apostate Hawke (or Bethany) and Merrill. I imagine it's how he was able to enter Kirkwall in the first place.

Addai67 wrote...

Well this goes back to what I was discussing earlier in the weekend, that I can't find any reason why a reasonably grounded person would get involved with someone like that.  I could have, if I wanted to, probably rp'ed a character who did so for whatever reason, but when I played out Anders' romance I was so put off by the over-the-top breathy stuff that I just had to stop.

So the problem I have, which is also with Merrill, is why Hawke should even touch that hot potato. 

I think trust plays a significant factor. My apostate Hawke befriended and agreed with Anders' outlook on the mage situation, and trusted and romanced Merrill.

Although your comment about "trust" was referenced to Addai67, trust is my primary concern.  In DA:O, With Sten, my first Warden was reluctant to take on somebody who admitted to having killed a bunch of people without explanation out of concern that he might do it again.  Similarly with Zevran (and Loghain), I'm dealing with people who have tried to kill me.  My Hawke trusts Bethany for obvious reasons.  To be honest, he doesn't trust Merrill completely and avoided using her in Kirkwall in Act One.  The problem with Anders is not that I'm afraid he'll be found out by the Templars as Anders, it's that he clearly warns you that he's not always able to stay under control.  My Hawke is not about to go wandering around town with somebody who might go into a psychotic killing spree at the sight of Templars.  And as far as my Hawke is concerned, his killing the mage proves that distrust was justified.

The other problem is that while Anders says he doesn't know where he ends and Justice begins and implies that it's different from simple posession, I can't see any evidence of that.  From the viewpoint of an external observer, his behavior isn't any different from Connor's, except that Anders is in control more often than Connor.  When Justice takes over, Anders has no memory of what has transpired, and the mage killing in Act 2 suggests to me that Justice's understanding of what goes on when Anders is in control is pretty sketchy, as well.  That doesn't really suggest to me two personalities that are integrated and in communication. 

[Frishmet]

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

Justice may not be a person, but humanity is terribly infectious. Liquids take the shape of their containers, and I've always suspected that one of the biggest reasons spirits seek out mages is not only do they feel more comfortable around those that walk the Fade, but by sharing a mortal host they're finally able to learn how to change themselves. That's the only thing they can't do that in the Fade.

@CGG All your talk about Pratchett, Gaiman, and anthropomorphic personifications makes me want to write a series of Sandman themed vignettes regarding the DA2 companions. Only one I'm struggling with is Death, of all things. So... thank you. You have wonderful ideas, and are wonderfully good to draw story nugs from.

Just so you know... if you do this I would die happy <3

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

I took him asking to move in so completely differently than what is being discussed here.   To me it seemed both manipulative and sleazy.  IIRC (and it's been a few months since I played) it went something like,

"I love you.  I've spent three years aching for you every night!  Really sweetheart, I mean it!  Ummm, btw baby, I'm having some issues with my place at the moment and I really can't stay there so I need another place to crash.  Can I move in with you?"  This is a sleazy guy move that more than one friend of mine has fallen for.  And his reaction if you turn him down is totally in line with it being sleazy rather than loving.

And unfortunately, the women I know who have fallen for that really sounded kind of the same as Hawke did when talking about their new man :/

Except he only says that he's spent three years aching for Hawke after she says he can move in. Before he asks, he just says that he loves her and that she should have a normal life with someone else. Hardly laying it on thick.

Of course, I don't see any artifice in the build up of his relationship, nor do I think for a second that he's not legitimately in love with Hawke well before he makes a move. If you choose the sandwich line, it's clear he's a little uneasy asking because he realizes how it will come across, but he does it anyway (as if compelled by ****ty writing meant to cover several conversations in one!) 

And, seriously, if he was just using Hawke he probably would have made a move sooner...certainly before Fenris and Isabela could stake their claims. He hardly makes the whole thing easy...how many times can you fling yourself at him before he gives in? And the fact that he waits until after you've seen him kill/almost kill Ella is, like I said before, a pretty clear indication that he wanted ALL the cards out on the table, even the horribly unflattering ones. It's like...the anti-manipulation at that point. 

But, as I've said before, I get no whiff of manipulation from him at all until Act 3, and it's clear that he's so absolutely horrible at lying it makes me even more confident that he means everything he's said up until that point.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 juin 2011 - 02:53 .

[ademska]

maxernst wrote...

Although your comment about "trust" was referenced to Addai67, trust is my primary concern.  In DA:O, With Sten, my first Warden was reluctant to take on somebody who admitted to having killed a bunch of people without explanation out of concern that he might do it again.  Similarly with Zevran (and Loghain), I'm dealing with people who have tried to kill me.  My Hawke trusts Bethany for obvious reasons.  To be honest, he doesn't trust Merrill completely and avoided using her in Kirkwall in Act One.  The problem with Anders is not that I'm afraid he'll be found out by the Templars as Anders, it's that he clearly warns you that he's not always able to stay under control.  My Hawke is not about to go wandering around town with somebody who might go into a psychotic killing spree at the sight of Templars.  And as far as my Hawke is concerned, his killing the mage proves that distrust was justified.

The other problem is that while Anders says he doesn't know where he ends and Justice begins and implies that it's different from simple posession, I can't see any evidence of that.  From the viewpoint of an external observer, his behavior isn't any different from Connor's, except that Anders is in control more often than Connor.  When Justice takes over, Anders has no memory of what has transpired, and the mage killing in Act 2 suggests to me that Justice's understanding of what goes on when Anders is in control is pretty sketchy, as well.  That doesn't really suggest to me two personalities that are integrated and in communication. 

okay, but think about it this way: over the course of the six years hawke knows anders, until the chantry climax he only definitively loses control, like not subject to interpretation, once.  twice, if you rival him in a romance following the Justice quest.  that's one, possibly two instances in the entire six years hawke knows him.

every other instance of justice emerging (that is to say, anders turning kind of blue) is very subject to interpretation.  you see it as justice taking control, but many other people on this board including myself consider that their dialogue lines are recorded in tandem.  they speak in symbolic unison, and justice's goals are anders' goals.

connor, on the other hand, is possessed and cannot control his actions.  he does not want to hurt his family or the staff, and the demon forces him to.  he is actively against what's going on in his head.  anders is objectively not.  you can make arguments for justice being corrupted to various degrees, but it is decidedly not comparable to connor's situation.

[LT123]

Nope. Not lying at all.

[SurelyForth]

LT123 wrote...



Nope. Not lying at all.

All he needs to say during that little spiel is "Yeah...a potion. That's the ticket!"

[ademska]

@LT123

lmao

my first playthrough i was like... what are you really up to, you rascally scamp

i bet he is terrible at wicked grace

[ipgd]

"HE CAN VERY EASILY READ MY POKER FACE"

Modifié par ipgd, 14 juin 2011 - 03:09 .