57020 réponses à ce sujet

[FieryDove]

ademska wrote...

i bet he is terrible at wicked grace

Even the dog is better at playing cards than Anders. Varric said it- so...it must be true yes?

[berelinde]

ReiSilver wrote...

Does anyone else wish they could invite Anders to use the Hawke estate basement when they're not romancing him? I played a Hawke who was just-friends with Anders, with no interest in him romantically, but it just seemed weird to me when back in act 1 the Hawke Estate basement was pretty huge, if Hawke didn't want Anders moving into his bedroom there was still all that space he could use. My Hawke would have totally been ok with that, helping a friend and fellow apostate out when the Templars are worrying him.
In fact there would probably have been room for half the companions to room in the Hawke Estate... and then we could have a sitcom!

Totally wish I could offer the ancestral basement for apostate housing/clinic expansion. Though I was rather surprised to learn that it does double duty as a hellmouth in the Arwegian Aspect thingy in Act 3. Talk about lack of consistency. The floorplan isn't even the same!

And utterly disappointed that my PC could never use the basement herself. Or even access it. I mean, it is attached, isn't it? But no, the Hawke mansion would be the one building in Kirkwall that has its own floorplan.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ejoslin wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now. 

It's not that much of a shocker. I mean, he spent 3 years trying to not bang Hawke and telegraphs his clingy dependancy in a big way. Just imagine him as that 15 year old girl who loses her virginity to a guy who doesn't call her back and that's Anders's emotional state after you refuse him there.

I took him asking to move in so completely differently than what is being discussed here.   To me it seemed both manipulative and sleazy.  IIRC (and it's been a few months since I played) it went something like,

"I love you.  I've spent three years aching for you every night!  Really sweetheart, I mean it!  Ummm, btw baby, I'm having some issues with my place at the moment and I really can't stay there so I need another place to crash.  Can I move in with you?"  This is a sleazy guy move that more than one friend of mine has fallen for.  And his reaction if you turn him down is totally in line with it being sleazy rather than loving.

And unfortunately, the women I know who have fallen for that really sounded kind of the same as Hawke did when talking about their new man :/

I think that the issue here is that Anders is definitely mildly to moderately mentally ill. He has symptoms of a disorder I'd like to call "amalgamated crazy" but that has aspects of both bi-polar and PTSD. (I've had good friends with both those disorders before, several of whom I would definitely not consider un-datable, and two of whom who I did consider un-datable for me but who are now in long-term happy marriages or relationships with marriage on the horizon).

He's made it clear that he doesn't ever really feel safe in his own home. You've said you'd keep him safe (if jokingly, perhaps), and he legitimately believes that he'll be safer at your house. If he has PTSD, being in a location he considers safe and secure is really important to his continued mental health, so he might be a little enthusiastic at the idea of getting away from what he sees as a legitimate threat. Whether or not the threat is legitimate, I honestly believe that Anders believes it is real. And by saying "no" you're basically saying you don't care about his safety, you don't think his fears are real. Which... again, may be true for your Hawke. But sometimes people with PTSD have irrational fears. If you weren't in for dealing with relatively mild PTSD symptoms, maybe don't date the guy who has been systematically abused his entire life including a year in solitary confinement?

Not all cases of everything are the same. If any guy I was considering dating but not dating yet had shoved me against the wall the way Fenris does during the glowy kiss scene... glowy kisses would not have resulted.  Me leaving and probably not speaking to them without someone else present for quite some time would have resulted. But Fenris has very specific issues that make it easy for me to forgive him that... not all wall slams are created equal. I've seen girls in relationships where that kind of stuff has been a concrete warning sign. That doesn't mean Fenris is going to end up being an abuser. I don't think Fenris is going to end up being an abuser.

But if you say "wanting to move in early is always bad because I saw some circumstances where it lead to a bad situation," then I can say "pushing someone is bad because I saw some circumstances where it lead to a bad situation." 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juin 2011 - 03:20 .

[LT123]

That reminds me of Anora's hands-clasped gesture in Origins. You know, when she's manipulating you.  I always like going the "herp derp Alistair's-going-to-be-king-and-Loghain's-toast" route, getting backstabbed, and then then watching the Landsmeet side with you anyway. Mwahahahah.

I'm amused by the fact that Anders is horrible at playing cards.

Edit: And even my non-romancing Hawkes would be totally cool with him living in the basement. Especially Garrett Hawke. Mage bros for life! *fistbump*

Also, CulturalGeekGirl, I love reading your posts. Way more eloquent than the nonsense I come up with.

Modifié par LT123, 14 juin 2011 - 03:22 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

BLUFFING IS UNJUST.

[LT123]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

BLUFFING IS UNJUST.

Unless you're bluffing Anora.

[berelinde]

Am I a freak for loving the fact that Anders plays cards ABYSMALLY, but still shows up to challenge Isabela, Varric, and Dog?

[Ryzaki]

Anders...why are you such a glutton for punishment? My Hawke's so mean to you yet you keep throwing yourself at him...so sad. 

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now. 

Although I should also shut up, too, I won't. LOL 

He basically gives you one last out before he sleeps with you- you can send him away before sex. If you turn him away then, he takes it well. 

And you're acting like these things are meant to be taken at face value. Him asking to move in immediately after sex is a game mechanic...he and Merrill move in (because what Hawke with a heart would leave them in their hovels for three years?) and BW was too cheap to give them another conversation to work it out. The fact that they don't officially show up until Act 3 makes it clear that it's supposed to be viewed as a more natural progression than it actually is in game.

Also, I guess I'm childish/weird because I really don't mind Anders asking to move in there, and Fenris blowing Hawke off and refusing to talk about it FOR THREE YEARS makes me want to punch him a little. 

Yeah, I think I'm back around to the "I just don't like the game period" conclusion.  I said upthread that I had to wink at some things with Fenris, though found his romance more tolerable due to the personality difference- I can take standoffish better than clingy.  But really none of the romances appeal to me that much.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

@Hill-Hurwitz, LT123, pretty much everyone who has said something nice to me here.

Thanks all. I always mean to actually respond to people who say nice things, but then I think "first, I'll write this two line response to another post" and then it's 11:45pm and where did all the time go?

Also, thanks everyone here for all the great fanfic. Seriously, now I think the version of Anders who exists in game is just a seed for an even awesomer one who lives in the collective unconscious of all Anders fans... that guy is usually a bit more of an obviously smooth transition from Awakening Anders, too.

I've cleaned out three of the major posters here... read everything Anders-related in their various libraries, so I'm on the hunt again. I'm extremely picky (which is why my friend could never get me to read any other fanfiction), but so many people write Anders so well and hrrrng.

You guys are my second favorite thread on the Bioware Boards (sorry, the Garrus thread will always be my first love.)

[LT123]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

@Hill-Hurwitz, LT123, pretty much everyone who has said something nice to me here.

Thanks all. I always mean to actually respond to people who say nice things, but then I think "first, I'll write this two line response to another post" and then it's 11:45pm and where did all the time go?

Also, thanks everyone here for all the great fanfic. Seriously, now I think the version of Anders who exists in game is just a seed for an even awesomer one who lives in the collective unconscious of all Anders fans... that guy is usually a bit more of an obviously smooth transition from Awakening Anders, too.

I've cleaned out three of the major posters here... read everything Anders-related in their various libraries, so I'm on the hunt again. I'm extremely picky (which is why my friend could never get me to read any other fanfiction), but so many people write Anders so well and hrrrng.

You guys are my second favorite thread on the Bioware Boards (sorry, the Garrus thread will always be my first love.)

Fanfiction: You may have seen this already (it's not mine) but here.

Edit: Wow, quote fail.

Modifié par LT123, 14 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[ademska]

@CGG

well, not to apple polish, and i've not been lurking here THAT long all things considered, but your posts are some of the most insightful things i've ever read.  you can't imagine my surprise when, after scouring the WASTELAND of discussion and fic boards that is this terrible, abysmal fandom, the place i expected to be one of the worst cesspits was actually full of both thoughtful and delightful debate

really, it's a whole bevy of batman people here.

what kinda fic are you generally into? i might have some recs, at the very least.

[beckaliz]

@CGG I adore Garrus very much, and since I'm new to these forums I haven't been over to his thread yet, but with ME3 coming on the horizon I'm afraid to, because I don't want any spoilers. T_T *gnaws hands* I'm burning to see him and Kaidan confront each other. Or whatever.

I do have to thank you also, your arguments are always well thought out, well worded and clear, and very respectful. I don't think that personally I could keep from coming across as irritated in some of the discussions you've had. lol.

Oh, and you've inspired me to actually work on my Anders fic which has been in my mind for too long. As long as you don't mind M/M. 9-9 Not that it's going to be really explicit.

Modifié par beckaliz, 14 juin 2011 - 03:58 .

[maxernst]

ademska wrote...

maxernst wrote...

To be honest, he doesn't trust Merrill completely and avoided using her in Kirkwall in Act One.  The problem with Anders is not that I'm afraid he'll be found out by the Templars as Anders, it's that he clearly warns you that he's not always able to stay under control.  My Hawke is not about to go wandering around town with somebody who might go into a psychotic killing spree at the sight of Templars.  And as far as my Hawke is concerned, his killing the mage proves that distrust was justified.

The other problem is that while Anders says he doesn't know where he ends and Justice begins and implies that it's different from simple posession, I can't see any evidence of that.  From the viewpoint of an external observer, his behavior isn't any different from Connor's, except that Anders is in control more often than Connor.  When Justice takes over, Anders has no memory of what has transpired, and the mage killing in Act 2 suggests to me that Justice's understanding of what goes on when Anders is in control is pretty sketchy, as well.  That doesn't really suggest to me two personalities that are integrated and in communication. 

okay, but think about it this way: over the course of the six years hawke knows anders, until the chantry climax he only definitively loses control, like not subject to interpretation, once.  twice, if you rival him in a romance following the Justice quest.  that's one, possibly two instances in the entire six years hawke knows him.

every other instance of justice emerging (that is to say, anders turning kind of blue) is very subject to interpretation.  you see it as justice taking control, but many other people on this board including myself consider that their dialogue lines are recorded in tandem.  they speak in symbolic unison, and justice's goals are anders' goals.

connor, on the other hand, is possessed and cannot control his actions.  he does not want to hurt his family or the staff, and the demon forces him to.  he is actively against what's going on in his head.  anders is objectively not.  you can make arguments for justice being corrupted to various degrees, but it is decidedly not comparable to connor's situation.

But if they're in tandem all the time, why does Justice not understand that the mage is not one of the Templars?  Since Anders admits to having more and more frequent memory blackouts, I think the most likely explanation is that he has no direct knowledge of what's going on in our world except when Anders eyes glow blue. By the end, I think he's inexorably sliding toward Connor's condition.  He may be allowing the posession, but it's still posession.  I think it's ironic that someone who fought so hard for freedom is surrendering control of his own body.

And as far as over six years, it only happens twice goes...well, it happens on the very first day my Hawke meets him.    And frankly, finding out that somebody I've just met has this uncontrollable vengeful spirit that pops out sometimes doesn't inspire me to spend more time with him.  So my Hawke has no idea how often it really happens.  It's happened both times that he's seen him in the presence of the Templars.  Yes, I realize nothing happens if you take him to the Gallows Courtyard or the Chantry, but that's metagaming knowledge--Iain wasn't about to take the risk.

[ipgd]

maxernst wrote...

But if they're in tandem all the time, why does Justice not understand that the mage is not one of the Templars?

He knows she's not one of the templars. Because she calls him a demon when he gets his glowy thing on, even after he saved her, he assumes she's "brainwashed" and lashes out in a rage.

[ademska]

maxernst wrote...

ademska wrote...

okay, but think about it this way: over the course of the six years hawke knows anders, until the chantry climax he only definitively loses control, like not subject to interpretation, once.  twice, if you rival him in a romance following the Justice quest.  that's one, possibly two instances in the entire six years hawke knows him.

every other instance of justice emerging (that is to say, anders turning kind of blue) is very subject to interpretation.  you see it as justice taking control, but many other people on this board including myself consider that their dialogue lines are recorded in tandem.  they speak in symbolic unison, and justice's goals are anders' goals.

connor, on the other hand, is possessed and cannot control his actions.  he does not want to hurt his family or the staff, and the demon forces him to.  he is actively against what's going on in his head.  anders is objectively not.  you can make arguments for justice being corrupted to various degrees, but it is decidedly not comparable to connor's situation.

But if they're in tandem all the time, why does Justice not understand that the mage is not one of the Templars?  Since Anders admits to having more and more frequent memory blackouts, I think the most likely explanation is that he has no direct knowledge of what's going on in our world except when Anders eyes glow blue. By the end, I think he's inexorably sliding toward Connor's condition.  He may be allowing the posession, but it's still posession.  I think it's ironic that someone who fought so hard for freedom is surrendering control of his own body.

And as far as over six years, it only happens twice goes...well, it happens on the very first day my Hawke meets him.    And frankly, finding out that somebody I've just met has this uncontrollable vengeful spirit that pops out sometimes doesn't inspire me to spend more time with him.  So my Hawke has no idea how often it really happens.  It's happened both times that he's seen him in the presence of the Templars.  Yes, I realize nothing happens if you take him to the Gallows Courtyard or the Chantry, but that's metagaming knowledge--Iain wasn't about to take the risk.

because the the situation with that mage (ella) is the time i mentioned where he is most assuredly not in control.  i didn't say they were in tandem all the time; i actually said there were one (possibly two) incidents where they explicitly were NOT.

furthermore, when i say the rest of it is up for debate, what i mean is that just as you interpreted anders as losing control when he goes glowy in the chantry during his first quest, i see it as the both of them working in unison.  if justice was just a passenger (or even nonexistent) and anders could not be controlled by him, anders would not have reacted any differently. in my opinion, both after careful meta analysis and my hawke's first initial encounter, anders was not under any possession during this scene.

i understand that if you have a hawke that is quite cautious you wouldn't want to metagame anders into a playthrough, though. give another hawke a go with him around, though. i did the same thing with merrill my first run-through and ended up understanding her a WHOLE lot better when i actually gave her a chance.

i do have to agree with CGG (i think that's who it was) though; from a more distant perspective, anders is by far the best mage to take with you around kirkwall.  if you go to play another hawke and you still can't justify it, try to remember that anders is not only skilled (both pre- and post-justice) in NOT getting caught by templars, but he's a grey warden and thus has some degree of immunity.  on the other hand, merrill is a dalish blood mage fugitive, and bethany similarly has no form of protection beyond her brother/sister. who may, potentially, be a mage him/herself.

Modifié par ademska, 14 juin 2011 - 04:10 .

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I took him asking to move in so completely differently than what is being discussed here.   To me it seemed both manipulative and sleazy.  IIRC (and it's been a few months since I played) it went something like,

"I love you.  I've spent three years aching for you every night!  Really sweetheart, I mean it!  Ummm, btw baby, I'm having some issues with my place at the moment and I really can't stay there so I need another place to crash.  Can I move in with you?"  This is a sleazy guy move that more than one friend of mine has fallen for.  And his reaction if you turn him down is totally in line with it being sleazy rather than loving.

And unfortunately, the women I know who have fallen for that really sounded kind of the same as Hawke did when talking about their new man :/

Except he only says that he's spent three years aching for Hawke after she says he can move in. Before he asks, he just says that he loves her and that she should have a normal life with someone else. Hardly laying it on thick.

Of course, I don't see any artifice in the build up of his relationship, nor do I think for a second that he's not legitimately in love with Hawke well before he makes a move. If you choose the sandwich line, it's clear he's a little uneasy asking because he realizes how it will come across, but he does it anyway (as if compelled by ****ty writing meant to cover several conversations in one!) 

And, seriously, if he was just using Hawke he probably would have made a move sooner...certainly before Fenris and Isabela could stake their claims. He hardly makes the whole thing easy...how many times can you fling yourself at him before he gives in? And the fact that he waits until after you've seen him kill/almost kill Ella is, like I said before, a pretty clear indication that he wanted ALL the cards out on the table, even the horribly unflattering ones. It's like...the anti-manipulation at that point. 

But, as I've said before, I get no whiff of manipulation from him at all until Act 3, and it's clear that he's so absolutely horrible at lying it makes me even more confident that he means everything he's said up until that point.

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure he declares his feelings before asking to move in (but again, I could be wrong as it has been several months since I've played).  The reason he gives for wanting to move in is because he is worried about the templars.

Act 3 definitely has him trying to use Hawke's feeling to get him/her to do what he wants.  He says "I love you," there as a way to manipulate, not to express his feelings.

This has nothing really to do with whether he was in love with Hawke or not.  I'm sure he was written to be in love in his insane way.  But that scene repelled me completely.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2011 - 04:11 .

[cmessaz]

Guess I'm weird, I'm with Surely about not feeling that way about it. I do wish the move in convo had taken place later, but still. I felt it was fine.

[ipgd]

ejoslin wrote...

Act 3 definitely has him trying to use Hawke's feeling to get him/her to do what he wants.  He says "I love you," there as a way to manipulate, not to express his feelings.

He does, but he's extremely obvious about it, in a way that makes me assume he really is being sincere in Act 2 and manipulation is not the principle item on the agenda. I mean, I'm sure he's aware shacking up with Hawke would be beneficial to him, and it's probably does contribute to the chastity belt coming off to some degree, but if it were the main reason or even a particularly big reason, I think he would act much differently than he does in that scene.

Edit: At most I think it might be something he uses to convince Justice it's a good idea.

Modifié par ipgd, 14 juin 2011 - 04:22 .

[cmessaz]

I don't know, to me if he wanted to manipulate him/her for a safe place, would he have shooed Hawke away for 3 years? Seems like he'd start layin on the charm after he/she buys his/her mansion. But again, this is just me. I usually don't get involved in these arguments, I just watch. With snacks.

Modifié par cmessaz, 14 juin 2011 - 04:23 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ademska wrote...

@CGG

well, not to apple polish, and i've not been lurking here THAT long all things considered, but your posts are some of the most insightful things i've ever read.  you can't imagine my surprise when, after scouring the WASTELAND of discussion and fic boards that is this terrible, abysmal fandom, the place i expected to be one of the worst cesspits was actually full of both thoughtful and delightful debate

really, it's a whole bevy of batman people here.

what kinda fic are you generally into? i might have some recs, at the very least.

I was so surprised by this game and this thread. Everyone was like "this game is terrible and this guy is the WORST" and then I fell into a giant pool of Anders and it was great. I actually ended up here partially due to someone arguing that Anders is hard to romance and only a good character if he is rivaled. Both of which I disagree with, but whatever it took to get me here was totally worth it!

So far, the only fics I've plowed through like a madman are Miri1984 and SurelyForth's stuff.

I'll basically try anything, once. I'm picky about tone, and there's no good way for me to describe what a good "tone" is, I just read a few pages and if I don't get a trigger that says "that character wouldn't say THAT" I keep reading. I'll read pretty much any Anders pairing. Or more-than-pairing. (I remember finding a really great AU Anders/Alistair/Cousland fic a while ago. /coughs.) I do have a soft spot for really good F/M Anders fics, but that's only because I primarily play Female characters and thus "get" their voices more... highcastle's fic is also one of my favorites, and GoneBatty's Fenders comic was my gateway drug.

Basically, recommend me pretty much anything, If I don't like it I won't get mad, and I don't want to set any barriers, because if you'd told me a month ago "hey, you're going to be reading dragonage fic" I would have said you were a god damned liar.

[Miri1984]

As a manipulator? He is soooo bad it's hilarious. The body language when he comes to ask you about the potion - he could NOT be more obviously lying. Either Justice has completely destroyed any ability he ever had to dissemble, or he doesn't WANT you to believe him.

And he give up the ghost so easily when you challenge him later, just heads straight for the emotional blackmail. He is using weapons at his disposal, but I think they've made it pretty obvious that he hates himself for doing it.

Edited to add @CulturalGeekGirl I just saw you read my fics and I'm all flattered and stuff

Modifié par Miri1984, 14 juin 2011 - 04:39 .

[LT123]

I've said this before, but I love that Hawke actually gets to argue with him about it, in addition to the "There wasn't really a potion, was there?" question in the post-sneaking-into-Chantry conversation, (argument's definitely in rivalry romance, don't remember if it's possible in friendship) during his final Questioning Beliefs quest.

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

all the awesome words

so i am basically treating this as a rec post, because the two paragraphs i just read of surelyforth's were divine, and i enjoyed gonebatty's comic, so your judgment seems impeccable.

if you're willing to delve into the m/m side of things, i have a friend who writes the most brilliant what-if-type lengthy pieces that seem from a characterization standpoint like they might be right up your alley. "errant signs of mercy" , "fareweel regality", and "in any other world" are what you would probably like best.  she's fantastic, basically singlehandedly inspired me to write again.

eta: that last one is particularly noteworthy for how she portrays awakening!anders in comparison to what he eventually becomes.

Modifié par ademska, 14 juin 2011 - 04:48 .

[Sarielle]

ipgd wrote...

Addai67 wrote...



It's very understandable he'd be hurt. I was expecting something like "you're probably right, you should stay away from me." The YOU BETRAYED ME was quite a shocker. I deliberately chose the line that said "I'm not ready" rather than "lol sucker, see you." And really there was no discussion of moving in prior to that, you only just slept together the
first time. Although granted, all Hawke's lines were pretty much "we'll be together forever and ever!"

I should just shut up now.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

It's not that much of a shocker. I mean, he spent 3 years trying to not bang Hawke and telegraphs his clingy dependancy in a big way. Just imagine him as that 15 year old girl who loses her virginity to a guy who
doesn't call her back and that's Anders's emotional state after you  refuse him there.

LOL yeah, pretty much this exactly.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I also agree that a guy asking to move in too early is less offputting for me personally than a guy not being willing to talk about a thing for three years.

If you won't talk about a thing for... a month, at that point I'm pretty much going to have decided that you're not interested anymore. If you come back to talk to me later, and I happen to be single at the time, then OK. That's fine, I'm forgiving.

You and I are similar in this. Except for the forgiving part. Really, though, it's more the fact that by the time I've written somebody off as not interested I just lack the the motivation to  consider getting things rolling again.

ReiSilver wrote...

Does anyone else wish they could invite Anders to use the Hawke estate basement when they're not romancing him?

Yes! Same with Merrill. Hawke's got the room, it's pretty obvious friends use it as a clubhouse anyways...why not just give 'em a place to crash nightly?

Modifié par Sarielle, 14 juin 2011 - 04:49 .