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[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
When Kop has to deal with a student association made up of incompetent idiots who wait until the last possible moment to give him the info he needs to work our event out and invite important speakers, and then tell him that they changed the venue and booked a crappy building and now want him to change the list. Then KoP gets tired, and by implication lazy. Which also expains him wanting to take it out on DA2 right now. 

 

Ouch. That...really sucks. No one at all is willing to help you (that's competent?) 

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...
BTW I have not mentioned this, but Xanatos is one of the most bestest awesomest characters EVAR.

Fixed

[beckaliz]

Ryzaki wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

Does that mean I've done it wrong if I Friendmance Anders, then execute him and side with the Templars?

Nope.

I actually have a Hawke who is contemplating doing that. I'm still stuck at endgame for her, because I don't know which one I want to do (I'll probably do both because I am a coward, like I did for Garrus-romance Kaidan-faithfulness on ME2. Weaaaaak.)

She's my Hawke whose goal is to completely reform Andrasteism from the inside out, freeing mages and restoring the heretical canticles. So at the end of this war, she wants to be a messianic figure, and she's trying to figure out whether killing Anders and siding with the Templars makes a better story, for the purpose of establishing herself as the new prophet of Andraste, or at the very least the new Divine.

If she ends up killing him and siding with the Templars, she is, ironically, doing it for the cause.

That's interesting! I'd say that siding with the Templars, then, would do her better... Just because you can still spare the non-blood-mages, and if you gain the Templars' respect to the degree that Cassandra states later, you'd be better able to change them from the inside...

Don't all the mages hate you in that scenario? 

It's at the end of the game, so beyond Varric's truncated summation of events after the final battle, there really isn't much indication one way or the other about how the opposite group feels about you. I assume that they'd look on Hawke better for sparing the ones that surrender and killing only the blood mages. (Although that ends up being most of them.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Ouch. That...really sucks. No one at all is willing to help you (that's competent?) 

Ever since the "revolutions" Arabs have been very keen on having as less hierarchy as possible, so naturally the competent (me) can't enforce their will anymore.

Eh we'll figure this out.

Anywho, Anders......yuck?

[ademska]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Which also expains him wanting to take it out on DA2 right now.

gosh you have every other thread on bsn for that

MUST YOU HAVE THIS ONE TOO

MUST YOU

it's like when you're minding your own business with your friends and big brother walks in your room and just kicks your pile of baseball cards

love you kop

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

beckaliz wrote...
BTW I have not mentioned this, but Xanatos is one of the most bestest awesomest characters EVAR.

Fixed

I keep meaning to ask you this... have you actually read any of the Discworld books with Havelock Vetinari? 

I think you'd like him. He's my favorite coldly calculating mastermind. Sample quote:

"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Ever since the "revolutions" Arabs have been very keen on having as less hierarchy as possible, so naturally the competent (me) can't enforce their will anymore. 

Eh we'll figure this out.

Anywho, Anders......yuck?

I don't find him completely yuck.  

beckaliz wrote...
It's at the end of the game, so beyond Varric's truncated summation of events after the final battle, there really isn't much indication one way or the other about how the opposite group feels about you. I assume that they'd look on Hawke better for sparing the ones that surrender and killing only the blood mages. (Although that ends up being most of them.)

 

True. 

You don't kill just bloodmages. You kill anyone who fights back. (which is most of them) but hey...as my Daemon Hawke says "If you're fool enough to raise a weapon to me you'll die for it and quickly." 

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Which also expains him wanting to take it out on DA2 right now.

gosh you have every other thread on bsn for that

MUST YOU HAVE THIS ONE TOO

MUST YOU

it's like when you're minding your own business with your friends and big brother walks in your room and just kicks your pile of baseball cards

love you kop

My sister would confirm that this is indeed very much me.

Except I used to call her stupid names that don't make any sense, for no reason, at random.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I keep meaning to ask you this... have you actually read any of the Discworld books with Havelock Vetinari? 

I think you'd like him. He's my favorite coldly calculating mastermind. Sample quote:

"I
believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the
good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are,
always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."

No I haven't, but many people told me that. I am going to check itout asap.

And I like the quote. wouldn't phrase it the exact same way, but I'd share the spirit of it.

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

beckaliz wrote...
That's interesting! I'd say that siding with the Templars, then, would do her better... Just because you can still spare the non-blood-mages, and if you gain the Templars' respect to the degree that Cassandra states later, you'd be better able to change them from the inside...

It's almost the opposite. Hawke being pro-mage means that there is someone that mages might be stupid enough to listen to, while Cassandra can try to motivate the Templars, though Seekers are usually hated. 

Really, it's would make mroe snese if Hawke is just removed from the equation, and instead have Cassandra be competent and less stupid,

I don't think that Cassandra's real goal is to change the Templar order and free the mage Circles and all that, though, like CGG's Hawke is aiming to do. I think Cassandra is just tasked with trying to find the influential Champion and try to get a reign on the looming chaos that threatens to engulf all of Thedas. Though I'm not sure how obvious it was that I was referring to her specific Hawke roleplay scenario...

All right, Xanatos is awesome enough that, although I do have some other characters who I love, I am totally willing to concede the point right now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...
I don't think that Cassandra's real goal is to change the Templar order and free the mage Circles and all that, though, like CGG's Hawke is aiming to do. I think Cassandra is just tasked with trying to find the influential Champion and try to get a reign on the looming chaos that threatens to engulf all of Thedas. Though I'm not sure how obvious it was that I was referring to her specific Hawke roleplay scenario...

Well I don't want to start with my distate of Hawke, because once I start nothing can stop me (juggernaut b*tch! essentially). But the entire premise makes no sense to me. Hawke failed to prevent two conflicts. Why would Cassandra ever think he / she is qualified to stop a much bigger one?

Anyways, I don't see how Hawke, who sided with the Templars, would be influencial enough to convince them to reform the system in the frenzy of war, when there is no one to moderate the mages (and seeing how stupid they are in DA2, they need someone like that). And that scenario would make even less sense if Hawke is an apostate. As for post war, unless Hawke managed to accumulate a vast amount of popularity and power to pressure for Chantry reforms (because they are not going to reform without pressure), which I'd question his ability to do seeing how he was utterly useless in Kirkwall, then I don't see him having that much influence.

so I don't know. I don't see how the story can progress while still makign sense, if they didn't put brains in Cassandra and make her try to do her job instead of going on hero worship hunting.

All right, Xanatos is awesome enough that, although I do have some other characters who I love, I am totally willing to concede the point right now.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2011 - 06:12 .

[beckaliz]

Ryzaki wrote...

beckaliz wrote...
It's at the end of the game, so beyond Varric's truncated summation of events after the final battle, there really isn't much indication one way or the other about how the opposite group feels about you. I assume that they'd look on Hawke better for sparing the ones that surrender and killing only the blood mages. (Although that ends up being most of them.)

 

True. 

You don't kill just bloodmages. You kill anyone who fights back. (which is most of them) but hey...as my Daemon Hawke says "If you're fool enough to raise a weapon to me you'll die for it and quickly." 

Ahh. Yeah I guess I just assumed that any of the mages fighting back would turn to blood magic. Since Orsino does and everything. (And boy is he DISGUSTING. Euughhh. XP)

That's definitely fair to say, also. I mean, during Dissent, even ANDERS acknowledges that it's the Templars' place to round up mages and bring them back to the Circle. So... maleficarum = bad... it makes sense to, like, not fight with them when there's legitimate reason to want to eliminate blood magic.

[Ryzaki]

beckaliz wrote...
Ahh. Yeah I guess I just assumed that any of the mages fighting back would turn to blood magic. Since Orsino does and everything. (And boy is he DISGUSTING. Euughhh. XP)

That's definitely fair to say, also. I mean, during Dissent, even ANDERS acknowledges that it's the Templars' place to round up mages and bring them back to the Circle. So... maleficarum = bad... it makes sense to, like, not fight with them when there's legitimate reason to want to eliminate blood magic.

Sadly the annullment is a "kill em all to be sure." scenario because you have no way of telling whose a bloodmage and whose not (evident by the fact that Grace apparently is invisible >_> ) So even mages who aren't abominations/bloodmages have to be killed to be sure. (Of course DA2 has you able to take a third option and spare all the mages that surrender). 

And Orsino is disgusting. I can't stand him. Another reason I love the templar ending is because I can call him out on his crap. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
And Orsino is disgusting. I can't stand him. Another reason I love the templar ending is because I can call him out on his crap. 

Orsino is incomprehensible to me. I still do not know the logic behind his entire research. 

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well I don't want to start with my distate of Hawke, because once I start nothing can stop me (juggernaut b*tch! essentially). But the entire premise makes no sense to me. Hawke failed to prevent two conflicts. Why would Cassandra ever think he / she is qualified to stop a much bigger one?

Anyways, I don't see how Hawke, who sided with the Templars, would be influencial enough to convince them to reform the system in the frenzy of war, when there is no one to moderate the mages (and seeing how stupid they are in DA2, they need someone like that). And that scenario would make even less sense if Hawke is an apostate. As for post war, unless Hawke managed to accumulate a vast amount of popularity and power to pressure for Chantry reforms (because they are not going to reform without pressure), which I'd question his ability to do seeing how he was utterly useless in Kirkwall, then I don't see him having that much influence.

so I don't know. I don't see how the story can progress while still makign sense, if they didn't put brains in Cassandra and make her try to do her job instead of going on hero worship hunting.

"Are you telling me the Champion defeated the Arishok in single combat? But that sounds so... romantic! *blush*"
"Oh dearie me, Seeker, are you developing a little crush?"
"Psh **** please! I just... AHEM, continue with the story. > "

OH CASSANDRA, YOUR NAIVETE IS REFRESHING.

Modifié par beckaliz, 14 juin 2011 - 06:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...
"Are you telling me the Champion defeated the Arishok in single combat? But that sounds so... romantic! *blush*"
"Oh dearie me, Seeker, are you developing a little crush?"
"Psh **** please! I just... AHEM, continue with the story. > "

OH CASSANDRA, YOUR NAIVETE IS REFRESHING.

Exactly.

And people wonder why the Chantry is collapsing.

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...
 (Of course DA2 has you able to take a third option and spare all the mages that surrender).

p sure the rite of annulment dictates that those spared mages get made tranquil so

not really a third option, they're still functionally dead

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Orsino is incomprehensible to me. I still do not know the logic behind his entire research.

to freak me the **** out with the transformation.  not so much the body horror as the sudden realization when he namedrops quentin that oh, hey, that's my mom's stuff going on there super cool.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And Orsino is disgusting. I can't stand him. Another reason I love the templar ending is because I can call him out on his crap. 

Orsino is incomprehensible to me. I still do not know the logic behind his entire research. 

 
Isn't it obvious? There was so great plan behind turning into a mindless harvester! It was obviously some momentof genius that- oh who am I kidding. It was dumb. 

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote...
p sure the rite of annulment dictates that those spared mages get made tranquil so

not really a third option, they're still functionally dead

That happens normally. Nothing about Kirkwall was a normal RoA. Plus what Cullen said (I believe its a templars duty to watch the mages) suggests that no they aren't gonna be made tranquil. There would be no need to watch them in that case. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 juin 2011 - 06:26 .

[Jean]

yeah orisino harvester was one of the couple times the game made me stop and think "wat".

the other time being when thrask and the other mages and templars assume you are working with meredith on that quest if you've been very vocal for the mages. if cullen can notice that I don't see why the rest of the population have a hard time noticing.

Modifié par Batteries, 14 juin 2011 - 06:30 .

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

beckaliz wrote...
"Are you telling me the Champion defeated the Arishok in single combat? But that sounds so... romantic! *blush*"
"Oh dearie me, Seeker, are you developing a little crush?"
"Psh **** please! I just... AHEM, continue with the story. > "

OH CASSANDRA, YOUR NAIVETE IS REFRESHING.

Exactly.

And people wonder why the Chantry is collapsing. 

Did you appreciate the reference just for you? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]

So, let me ask you this. I love the game... There are a lot of flaws with it due to rushed production and all of that, which I will readily admit. But I'm not completely clear on whether you like it overall or not. You have obviously put a lot of detailed thought into it, and are clearly spending a lot of free time devoting your thoughts to it. So, do you like it, or do you see it as an annoyance or just a flawed bridge to DA3?

EDIT: (The, ah, Gargoyles reference, I mean. It still pleases/surprises me that they used a word like "naivete" in a kids tv show.)

Modifié par beckaliz, 14 juin 2011 - 06:31 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I keep meaning to ask you this... have you actually read any of the Discworld books with Havelock Vetinari? 

I think you'd like him. He's my favorite coldly calculating mastermind. Sample quote:

"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."

No I haven't, but many people told me that. I am going to check itout asap.

And I like the quote. wouldn't phrase it the exact same way, but I'd share the spirit of it.

Ratsafratsin post-eating forums.

You'd want to start with Guards! Guards! most likely. Failing that, Jingo is relatively stand-alone. The books get better as time goes on, but they also require steadily more background information. In general, you want books from the City Watch cycle, though if you like the series I'd like to see what you think of Granny Weatherwax as well. She's the other side of the manipulativeness coin... smaller scale and more based on personal force of will rather than preternatural planning and manipulativeness. The thumb on the scales of history, rather than Vetinari's grand puppetmaster.

If you branch out to the books beyond the Watch, the first three or so are a bit... wobbly. The world takes a while to set. Be warned.

And another scrounged quote from our Lordship, relevant to the current discussion: 

"If it continues long enough, even a reign of terror may become a fondly remembered period. People believe they want justice and wise government but, in fact, what they really want is an assurance that tomorrow will be very much like today."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juin 2011 - 06:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...
Did you appreciate the reference just for you? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]

Of course

So, let me ask you this. I love the game... There are a lot of flaws with it due to rushed production and all of that, which I will readily admit. But I'm not completely clear on whether you like it overall or not. You have obviously put a lot of detailed thought into it, and are clearly spending a lot of free time devoting your thoughts to it. So, do you like it, or do you see it as an annoyance or just a flawed bridge to DA3?

I give it a 6.5/10. So no, I don't absolutely hate it, and I would be lying if I said I wasn't enjoying it in some parts (mostly Act 2), despite its flaws.

But this is the only Bioware game I really, really do not want to play again anytime soon (if ever). And easily the one which I felt had the weakest story, not in terms of concepts (I was dancing with joy when I heard the concepts), but rather the execution. I found it, especially Act 3, to be a debacle.

I think it might be safe to say that I am more dissapointed in it than I outright dislike it, though some parts annoy me quite a bit. If it was a 20$ game, I might have been able to tolerate it more, but I had to pay 60$ which is the only time I actually regret buying something that much.

So overall, I definitely see it as an annoyance and a very bad bridge to DA3. And if DA3 wants to be good, I think it should distance itself from DA2 as much as possible and remove Hawke from the equation. And no, I dont' want the Warden back either. 

Most of the thought I am putting is based on Origins, which I felt introduced the issue much better and more subtly. If I was itnroduced to the universe with DA2, I would really not care at all about mages and Templars, and just see them both as a bunch of idiots and maniacs.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2011 - 06:42 .

[beckaliz]

One thing that surprised me was how Cullen can freak out, kill some apprentices back in Ferelden, then make it over to Kirkwall and suddenly seem a whole lot more reasonable toward mages. Though maybe that's just in comparison to Meredith...?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

beckaliz wrote...

One thing that surprised me was how Cullen can freak out, kill some apprentices back in Ferelden, then make it over to Kirkwall and suddenly seem a whole lot more reasonable toward mages. Though maybe that's just in comparison to Meredith...?

I think the stabby McKilleveryone ending for Cullen has been established as either non-cannon or "probably not cannon." The Cullen girls seem to think so, anyway.

The poor, poor Cullen girls.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juin 2011 - 06:40 .

[Jean]

beckaliz wrote...

One thing that surprised me was how Cullen can freak out, kill some apprentices back in Ferelden, then make it over to Kirkwall and suddenly seem a whole lot more reasonable toward mages. Though maybe that's just in comparison to Meredith...?

Because even if you got that epilogue it never happened. You can only get it if you ask for the mage boon and since the chantry says "no" to the request to give mages more freedom, there's no cray cray barbarian Cullen.