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[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
You'd want to start with Guards! Guards! most likely. Failing that, Jingo is relatively stand-alone. The books get better as time goes on, but they also require steadily more background information. In general, you want books from the City Watch cycle, though if you like the series I'd like to see what you think of Granny Weatherwax as well. She's the other side of the manipulativeness coin... smaller scale and more based on personal force of will rather than preternatural planning and manipulativeness. The thumb on the scales of history, rather than Vetinari's grand puppetmaster.

Thanks for the advice!
Now I really want to check them out. Hopefully this week.

And another scrounged quote from our Lordship, relevant to the current discussion: 

"If it continues long enough, even a reign of terror may become a fondly remembered period. People believe they want justice and wise government but, in fact, what they really want is an assurance that tomorrow will be very much like today."

This is for the most part true, unless today lacks panem et circenses.

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I give it a 6.5/10. So no, I don't absolutely hate it, and I would be lying if I said I wasn't enjoying it in some parts (mostly Act 2), despite its flaws.

But this is the only Bioware game I really, really do not want to play again anytime soon (if ever). And easily the one which I felt had the weakest story, not in terms of concepts (I was dancing with joy when I heard the concepts), but rather the execution. I found it, especially Act 3, to be a debacle.

I think it might be safe to say that I am more dissapointed in it than I outright dislike it, though some parts annoy me quite a bit. If it was a 20$ game, I might have been able to tolerate it more, but I had to pay 60$ which is the only time I actually regret buying something that much.

So overall, I definitely see it as an annoyance and a very bad bridge to DA3. And if DA3 wants to be good, I think it should distance itself from DA2 as much as possible and remove Hawke from the equation. And no, I dont' want the Warden back either. 

Most of the htought I am putting is based on Origins, which I felt introduced the issue much better and more subtly. If I was itnroduced to the universe with Da2, I would really not care at all about mages and Tempalrs, and just see them both as a bunch of idiots and maniacs.

Do you have any ideas/preferences on what they might do for DA3 that you'd like more? Why don't you want to see the Warden again?

((I feel like a three-year-old with too many questions. XD))

Modifié par beckaliz, 14 juin 2011 - 06:43 .

[beckaliz]

Batteries wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

One thing that surprised me was how Cullen can freak out, kill some apprentices back in Ferelden, then make it over to Kirkwall and suddenly seem a whole lot more reasonable toward mages. Though maybe that's just in comparison to Meredith...?

Because even if you got that epilogue it never happened. You can only get it if you ask for the mage boon and since the chantry says "no" to the request to give mages more freedom, there's no cray cray barbarian Cullen.

Oh. *scratches head* Did I not pay enough attention to the fine print epilogue text at the end of DA:O?  I've only made it through once.  But to be fair on myself I only bought the xbox in mid-March and didn't hold out to play DAO a few times before I bought DA2 and it's easier for me to replay it because I like a voiced Hawke and for me the combat system is a whole lot more fun...

[Jean]

beckaliz wrote...

Batteries wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

One thing that surprised me was how Cullen can freak out, kill some apprentices back in Ferelden, then make it over to Kirkwall and suddenly seem a whole lot more reasonable toward mages. Though maybe that's just in comparison to Meredith...?

Because even if you got that epilogue it never happened. You can only get it if you ask for the mage boon and since the chantry says "no" to the request to give mages more freedom, there's no cray cray barbarian Cullen.

Oh. *scratches head* Did I not pay enough attention to the fine print epilogue text at the end of DA:O?  I've only made it through once.  But to be fair on myself I only bought the xbox in mid-March and didn't hold out to play DAO a few times before I bought DA2 and it's easier for me to replay it because I like a voiced Hawke and for me the combat system is a whole lot more fun...

It doesn't explicitly state that anywhere in the game, it's something Ser Gaider posted on a forum a while back.

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...
Do you have any ideas/preferences on what they might do for DA3 that you'd like more? Why don't you want to see the Warden again?

I mostly don't want the Warden back because I am afraid writing might screw him up. Plus it's not that feasible, I'd rather have something else.

I have a lot of ideas, including:
- a more proactive PC who can use his / her brains every once in a while
- more subtelty and less demons and abominations spawning in hordes
- Less idiocy, incompetence and madness, and more NPCs and factions with pros and cons, all or most being for the most part sensible and reasonable, but all flawed.
- No mysterious artifact or obscure codex to replace story telling, that's just lazy and stupid.  And it dehumanizes the issue.
- more character development of NPCs, instead of the Meredith and Orsino treatment
- more focus on the complexity of politics, with mage and Chantry / Templar inner divisions, and potentially states and secular forces. DA2 was very pathetic in that regards.
- related to that, less binary stories that is characteristic of every single Bioware game. Life is too complicated to be reduced to two factions / options. I know it will ****** off some, but I thought TW2 pulled off political complexity and intrigue much much much better and Bioware should learn from it.

And I can come up with a lot more, but those are the basic ones.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2011 - 06:51 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

DA2 has given me two things: a pretty little messed-up imaginary boy, and some subjects for lively debate. I'd give the boy (scored together with Awakenings) approximately a 9.5 (gotta leave room to grow!) and the debate a 7.5. Debates are scored much more harshly than men. With the former, an occasional chuckle will do. With the latter, if I am not reduced to tears at least once, either from emotion of mirth, you can't possibly hope to score higher than a nine.

(And if anyone ever wants discussion or advice on getting into Discworld novels, feel free to PM me. I'm terrible at answering PMs, but really great at talking about the Disc. My favorite fantasy universe and my favorite satirical one.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

DA2 has given me two things: a pretty little messed-up imaginary boy, and some subjects for lively debate. I'd give the boy (scored together with Awakenings) approximately a 9.5 (gotta leave room to grow!) and the debate a 7.5. Debates are scored much more harshly than men. With the former, an occasional chuckle will do. With the latter, if I am not reduced to tears at least once, either from emotion of mirth, you can't possibly hope to score higher than a nine.

Has a debate ever reduced you to tears?

A part of me wants to see this as a challenge...

[beckaliz]

Batteries wrote...

It doesn't explicitly state that anywhere in the game, it's something Ser Gaider posted on a forum a while back.

Ahh, so it's not even Codex retcon, it's complete out-of-game retcon. 

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

DA2 has given me two things: a pretty little messed-up imaginary boy, and some subjects for lively debate. I'd give the boy (scored together with Awakenings) approximately a 9.5 (gotta leave room to grow!) and the debate a 7.5. Debates are scored much more harshly than men. With the former, an occasional chuckle will do. With the latter, if I am not reduced to tears at least once, either from emotion of mirth, you can't possibly hope to score higher than a nine.

Has a debate ever reduced you to tears?

A part of me wants to see this as a challenge...

You know, the debates between you two have already reduced ME to tears, and I wasn't even involved. ROFL. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...
You know, the debates between you two have already reduced ME to tears, and I wasn't even involved. ROFL. 

...Seriously?

...sorry

[Jean]

too many big words for me to follow

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

DA2 has given me two things: a pretty little messed-up imaginary boy, and some subjects for lively debate. I'd give the boy (scored together with Awakenings) approximately a 9.5 (gotta leave room to grow!) and the debate a 7.5. Debates are scored much more harshly than men. With the former, an occasional chuckle will do. With the latter, if I am not reduced to tears at least once, either from emotion of mirth, you can't possibly hope to score higher than a nine.

Has a debate ever reduced you to tears?
A part of me wants to see this as a challenge...

I was arguing about X-men first class with an old friend today. We usually agree on this kind of thing, in this case we did not. But we are both writers (sort of), so we end up trying to completely befuddle or amuse each other during our disagreements. He got me with a riff on the movie's ending. I did not agree that the specific device he was deconstructing made the movie bad, but the managed to write an analysis so ludicrously apt that I laughed until I teared up a little.

I had a friend who used to be able to do that with essays, as well. Infuriatingly, he decided his charm and good humor was better spent accumulating a harem of charming and willing ladies. I can't entirely fault his decision, especially having seen the ladies, but I miss his essays.

So... yes, but it is a rare thing. Happens more often in person. Tearing up from legitimate crying tears is much rarer, but has also been known to occur. Usually only when the subject is extremely serious or extremely beautiful. I am very strange.

EDIT: REPEATED EDITING FAIL

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juin 2011 - 07:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I was arguing about X-men first class with an old friend today.

Ah, X-Men First class. I can write whole blogs about it.

In fact, I've been trying to find people to discuss it with!

And I have my own thoughts on the ending.

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

beckaliz wrote...
You know, the debates between you two have already reduced ME to tears, and I wasn't even involved. ROFL. 

...Seriously?

...sorry

LOL I'm just not cut out for harsh debates, personally. At least not in this kind of venue. Without being able to read tone of voice or body language I have a harder time not taking something personally. Do you know what I mean? It's hard to not feel... attacked, when someone has an opposite opinion of mine and is very... strong about it. But at least I do understand this about myself!! Makes it a lot easier to get through it. Although it also makes me more wary of getting shot down when I do want to say something...

But, really, no, debate on! Nobody's twisting my leg to read any of it. 

[Jean]

was that the movie that ended with the evaporating kiss?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I was arguing about X-men first class with an old friend today.

Ah, X-Men First class. I can write whole blogs about it.

In fact, I've been trying to find people to discuss it with!

And I have my own thoughts on the ending.

Feel free to PM me or link to your blog.

Does it say bad things about me that during much of the movie I was thinking of the plight of mages? Considering that DA Mages have so many strong parallels to mutants, I hope not.

Also: I have reached the level of insomnia where I wonder if it wouldn't be better to grab some coffee and call it an all-nighter.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juin 2011 - 07:12 .

[beckaliz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Also: I have reached the level of insomnia where I wonder if it wouldn't be better to grab some coffee and call it an all-nighter.

Uuuggghhhhh I should have been in bed three hours ago. I'm lying here on my stomach with the cat curled next to me and just kind of in zombie mode. I haven't spent so much time on the computer in moonnntthhhsss than getting into these darn forums. Ha ha ha.

Brain says... wish I could surf forums and play video games at the same time... I finished assembling the entertainment center I'm making earlier, and then was gonna go play me some ME2  (NO DON'T KILL SIDONIS YOU'LL REGRET IT!) but... Let's see what's been going on in the Anders forum since I posted this afternoon! What? Holy cow, this thing moves fast!! (And they're arguing over the definition of deux ex machina... oh dear...)

Modifié par beckaliz, 14 juin 2011 - 07:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...
LOL I'm just not cut out for harsh debates, personally. At least not in this kind of venue. Without being able to read tone of voice or body language I have a harder time not taking something personally. Do you know what I mean? It's hard to not feel... attacked, when someone has an opposite opinion of mine and is very... strong about it. But at least I do understand this about myself!! Makes it a lot easier to get through it. Although it also makes me more wary of getting shot down when I do want to say something...

But, really, no, debate on! Nobody's twisting my leg to read any of it. 

Awww, yea I understand. And sorry if I came on too aggresively. 

I am a nice person!....mostly.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Feel free to PM me or link to your blog.

Does
it say bad things about me that during much of the movie I was thinking
of the plight of mages? Considering that DA Mages have so many strong
parallels to mutants, I hope not.

Also: I have reached the level
of insomnia where I wonder if it wouldn't be better to grab some coffee
and call it an all-nighter.

Just have to say, I loved the movie quite a bit. And I personally prefer it to the Dark Knight (huge fan of batman and I prefer the Mask of Phantasm). So I wouldn't mind PM convos at all, we should do that 


While watching the movie, I was precisely thinking how people comparing Erik to Anders is going to ****** me off . I think there is quite a bit of differences between the two contexts, though the core issue is mostly the same.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2011 - 07:17 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

beckaliz wrote...

LOL I'm just not cut out for harsh debates, personally. At least not in this kind of venue. Without being able to read tone of voice or body language I have a harder time not taking something personally. Do you know what I mean? It's hard to not feel... attacked, when someone has an opposite opinion of mine and is very... strong about it. But at least I do understand this about myself!! Makes it a lot easier to get through it. Although it also makes me more wary of getting shot down when I do want to say something...

The great Bi LI debates of two-to-three-weeks-ago chased me off of the Mass Effect boards (for a time) and now it's hard to go back. That's the subject rated "most likey to get me to the point where I realize there's no point." I don't think I've cried over it, but I've gotten so mad that I paced a bit. Once I had to do a lap around my house, sprinting.

Central questions of funadmental ethics also work, but that's more of a "grrr, frustration" than a "faith in humanity" kind of pain. I don't know if I've ever cried over one of those.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Just have to say, I loved the movie quite a bit. And I personally prefer it to the Dark Knight (huge fan of batman and I prefer the Mask of Phantasm). So I wouldn't mind PM convos at all, we should do that

While watching the movie, I was precisely thinking how people comparing Erik to Anders is going to ****** me off. I think there is quite a bit of differences between the two contexts, though the core issue is mostly the same.

B:TAS, the associated movies, and then the main DCAU shows are the best TV or Movie media adaptations of comic books. End of line. Nothing compares to that unvierse so I just... don't compare anything to it.

Outside of the DCAU, My favorite superhero movie is probably still Iron Man, with Thor coming second (I am a sucker for Jack Kirby, and they Jack Kirbied the Fork out of that movie. Least convincing love interest ever, though.) First class may come in third. I'm honestly not sure yet.

Don't worry, I don't see Anders as remotely like Erik, other than surface similarities not really worth discussing. The main parallel I saw was this... People assuming that all free mutants are going to behave like Sebastian Shaw is what turns shades-of-grey mutants into crazy guerilla warfare freedom fighters.

The only other parallel is that Erik/Xavier is just as hot as Anders/Fenris. I make no apologies. You did this to me, Bioware boards!

Though I have to say that the thing that Erik tries to do in the last few minutes with the stuff in the air is MADE OF STUPID. Serioulsy Erik, I was on your side until then.

I'll actually start using PMs if I don't fall asleep or this gets to the point where it isn't even tangentially Anders or Mage Liberty-related. But for now, it's 3am! We can do what we want!

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

beckaliz wrote...
LOL I'm just not cut out for harsh debates, personally. At least not in this kind of venue. Without being able to read tone of voice or body language I have a harder time not taking something personally. Do you know what I mean? It's hard to not feel... attacked, when someone has an opposite opinion of mine and is very... strong about it. But at least I do understand this about myself!! Makes it a lot easier to get through it. Although it also makes me more wary of getting shot down when I do want to say something...

But, really, no, debate on! Nobody's twisting my leg to read any of it. 

Awww, yea I understand. And sorry if I came on too aggresively. 

I am a nice person!....mostly.

D'aaw it's okay. :3 Gargoyles is my first and most favorite fandom. Spider-Man and Jack Skellington are my two other forever-loves, but I didn't do lots of fan art or come up with a character and stories or read all the fan-fiction that I did for Gargoyles. Er, my point being, that even though the thought of disagreeing with you on something terrifies me (even though I tend to take CGG's side in your arguments), I'll still like you because you have a Xanatos avatar. XD Call me irrational, and I'll only agree because it's true.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The great Bi LI debates of two-to-three-weeks-ago chased me off of the Mass Effect boards (for a time) and now it's hard to go back. That's the subject rated "most likey to get me to the point where I realize there's no point." I don't think I've cried over it, but I've gotten so mad that I paced a bit. Once I had to do a lap around my house, sprinting. 

Central questions of funadmental ethics also work, but that's more of a "grrr, frustration" than a "faith in humanity" kind of pain. I don't know if I've ever cried over one of those.

Maybe I shouldn't ask about those debates... @_o;; Though now I'm curious. D: *cough* Of course I'm curious. But I can completely imagine getting really pissed about that kind of subject in debate. There are a lot of things that people can have to say about that sort of thing.

I'm glad though to have come onto the forums because for a while I was just lurking... Doing web searches about Fenris or Anders or other things and I kept getting linked to the forums. So I started just reading the forums for themselves. Then I said, Aw heck, I'm playing the game on XBOX Live, I should just join the darn forum. And it's nice to be able to share ideas and get different views. Although I'm not sure people understood the point I was trying to make when I accused Fenris of being a little selfish on the other board... lol.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Outside of the DCAU, My favorite superhero movie is probably still Iron Man, with Thor coming second (I am a sucker for Jack Kirby, and they Jack Kirbied the Fork out of that movie. Least convincing love interest ever, though.) First class may come in third. I'm honestly not sure yet.

My favorite would be First class personally.

Don't worry, I don't see Anders as remotely like Erik, other than surface similarities not really worth discussing.

Good, thank you.

Though I have to say that the thing that Erik tries to do in the last few minutes with the stuff in the air is MADE OF STUPID. Serioulsy Erik, I was on your side until then.

I'll actually start using PMs if I don't fall asleep or this gets to the point where it isn't even tangentially Anders or Mage Liberty-related. But for now, it's 3am! We can do what we want!

I do see Erik's point. What he was planning to do was purely in retaliation to an unprovoked attack (despite saving the world and they know it). He wanted to send a signal that mutants will not take slaps quietly. That said, yea I do not think he has a plan or idea yet,  and I think he underestimates humanity and overestimates mutants. So his act might have prompted repression on mutants that I am not sure they can handle.

But one could argue that Erik thought that humans, after what they've displayed (I mean USA and USSR deciding to wipe them out is a big signal), were going to start hunting mutants anyways (and it's hinted at, specifically the scene with Emma Frost in prison, where it's said that mutants ado not count as humans so the same laws don't apply). so him destroying two fleets didn't matter much, in the sense it won't worse what they think anyways. He already saw what they did as an act of war, so he retaliated. He would not be completely incorrect imo.

So, I actually find his attempted final act to be more reasonable than Anders, personally.
Not ideal in the slightest, and while Erik is a realist, he is also too passionate.

While I like Erik and Xavier a lot, I would probably be in the middle were I a mutant.

Amnd yea we can do whatever we want!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2011 - 07:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...
D'aaw it's okay. :3 Gargoyles is my first and most favorite fandom. Spider-Man and Jack Skellington are my two other forever-loves, but I didn't do lots of fan art or come up with a character and stories or read all the fan-fiction that I did for Gargoyles. Er, my point being, that even though the thought of disagreeing with you on something terrifies me (even though I tend to take CGG's side in your arguments), I'll still like you because you have a Xanatos avatar. XD Call me irrational, and I'll only agree because it's true.

So, I generate both terror and liking?

You just pushed my buttons, know that?

[beckaliz]

I AM A SELF-MADE MAN!! LOOK I HAVE AN ANCIENT PENNY! HO HO HO HO HO!!!

A wizard did it? XD HAHAHAHAHA>

Yes it's 3am... which means, it's the 3am stupids for me. STUPIDS. I have hard evidence. Or I did, anyway. Once upon a time.