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[CulturalGeekGirl]

The problem with any debate about LIs and gender is that it turns into a debate about privilege and gay rights. Which are subjects where you have to tread carefully. Sometimes the debate seems to be going fine for a while and then someone comes back in with the same tired argument that you're tired of rephrasing the default ethics lecture about, so you go watch people kiss Anders on Youtube until the pain goes away. That is pretty much exactly what happened to me.

Gargoyles is one of the few works of media that I can say honestly changed my life (along with HGttG, Pratchett, Sandman, the Muppets, The Last Unicorn, and Slayers. Weird group, yeah).

I went to the Final Gathering of the Gargoyles a few years ago. They had a fan meet-and-greet with Greg Weisman that had only ten spots, so I got up super early to get in line for when they put the sign up sheets out. I got a spot, and that was awesome.

Even more awesome was the fandom itself. Oh my god it was like... 55/45 girls to guys, most of whom were within a 5 year age radius of me, all of whom were extremely friendly, kind and literate, I'm sad that I only made it to the last one, or the Gathering would have likely become a regular thing for me. I got to shake Keith David's hand, though. Argh that was such a great weekend.

Edit for Top, and to distract people from the fact that this post is mostly about Gargoyles

Source

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juin 2011 - 07:53 .

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The great Bi LI debates of two-to-three-weeks-ago chased me off of the Mass Effect boards (for a time) and now it's hard to go back. That's the subject rated "most likey to get me to the point where I realize there's no point." I don't think I've cried over it, but I've gotten so mad that I paced a bit. Once I had to do a lap around my house, sprinting. 

Maybe I shouldn't ask about those debates... @_o;; Though now I'm curious. D: *cough* Of course I'm curious. But I can completely imagine getting really pissed about that kind of subject in debate. There are a lot of things that people can have to say about that sort of thing.

i really shouldn't be so curious myself, because every single person on the anti-bi LI side no matter their motivation makes me absolutely froth

and yet i am curious what the general bsn consensus is.

I'm glad though to have come onto the forums because for a while I was just lurking... Doing web searches about Fenris or Anders or other things and I kept getting linked to the forums. So I started just reading the forums for themselves. Then I said, Aw heck, I'm playing the game on XBOX Live, I should just join the darn forum. And it's nice to be able to share ideas and get different views. Although I'm not sure people understood the point I was trying to make when I accused Fenris of being a little selfish on the other board... lol.

that's because the anders thread is the BEST thread, full of people who at least attempt to give a ****.  every time i get so happy here that i feel like venturing out, i see the white isabela defenders and uh...

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

beckaliz wrote...
D'aaw it's okay. :3 Gargoyles is my first and most favorite fandom. Spider-Man and Jack Skellington are my two other forever-loves, but I didn't do lots of fan art or come up with a character and stories or read all the fan-fiction that I did for Gargoyles. Er, my point being, that even though the thought of disagreeing with you on something terrifies me (even though I tend to take CGG's side in your arguments), I'll still like you because you have a Xanatos avatar. XD Call me irrational, and I'll only agree because it's true.

So, I generate both terror and liking?

You just pushed my buttons, know that?

It was the good buttons, I hope!!

No, really, IRL I am a very strong minded person and actually come across as intimidating to those who disagree with me. XD I've been told this. But somehow I just can't handle an anonymous text-based system of disagreement. Go figure that!!

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

beckaliz wrote...
D'aaw it's okay. :3 Gargoyles is my first and most favorite fandom. Spider-Man and Jack Skellington are my two other forever-loves, but I didn't do lots of fan art or come up with a character and stories or read all the fan-fiction that I did for Gargoyles. Er, my point being, that even though the thought of disagreeing with you on something terrifies me (even though I tend to take CGG's side in your arguments), I'll still like you because you have a Xanatos avatar. XD Call me irrational, and I'll only agree because it's true.

So, I generate both terror and liking?

You just pushed my buttons, know that?

It was the good buttons, I hope!!

No, really, IRL I am a very strong minded person and actually come across as intimidating to those who disagree with me. XD I've been told this. But somehow I just can't handle an anonymous text-based system of disagreement. Go figure that!!

What's not good about being scary and still likeable?

That is curious. What, do you rely on glares and body language to get your point accross and be intimidating?

Anyways, really gtg sleep. Good night!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2011 - 07:59 .

[beckaliz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The problem with any debate about LIs and gender is that it turns into a debate about privilege and gay rights. Which are subjects where you have to tread carefully. Sometimes the debate seems to be going fine for a while and then someone comes back in with the same tired argument that you're tired of rephrasing the default ethics lecture about, so you go watch people kiss Anders on Youtube until the pain goes away. That is pretty much exactly what happened to me.

Gargoyles is one of the few works of media that I can say honestly changed my life (along with HGttG, Pratchett, Sandman, the Muppets, The Last Unicorn, and Slayers. Weird group, yeah).

I went to the Final Gathering of the Gargoyles a few years ago. They had a fan meet-and-greet with Greg Weisman that had only ten spots, so I got up super early to get in line for when they put the sign up sheets out. I got a spot, and that was awesome.

Even more awesome was the fandom itself. Oh my god it was like... 55/45 girls to guys, most of whom were within a 5 year age radius of me, all of whom were extremely friendly, kind and literate, I'm sad that I only made it to the last one, or the Gathering would have likely become a regular thing for me. I got to shake Keith David's hand, though. Argh that was such a great weekend.

Oh, wow, that would have been so awesome. I remember when those were still going on. I was too young to really have the opportunity to get involved, but I wanted to go to the Gathering so badly. And of course anything with Keith David in it is like SQUUUEEEEEEE~!!! KEITH DAVID!!! Hehehehe.

Also, ST:TNG actors' playground, weeeee~!

Modifié par beckaliz, 14 juin 2011 - 01:14 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Btw - Love the Witches from Discworld, hands down my faves. I want to be Nanny Ogg when I grow up.

To burble a bit on this subject...

If faced with the problem of Anders, Vetinari would use him (or have him quietly assasinated by a non-templar), Granny would try to reason with him. And Nanny Ogg would just get him drunk. Not even Justice can prevent Nanny Ogg from getting you drunk. It'd break the laws of physics.

Nanny Ogg + Varric = THE BEST OF ALL TIMES

[beckaliz]

Good night KoP! And, I really don't know... I can just hold my own darn well normally, but my strong psychic aura does not transfer well through the computer to sufficiently quell my opposition. XD

I think I have to bed also. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

see you all's wonderful people later~

Modifié par beckaliz, 14 juin 2011 - 08:02 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ademska wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The great Bi LI debates of two-to-three-weeks-ago chased me off of the Mass Effect boards (for a time) and now it's hard to go back. That's the subject rated "most likey to get me to the point where I realize there's no point." I don't think I've cried over it, but I've gotten so mad that I paced a bit. Once I had to do a lap around my house, sprinting. 

Maybe I shouldn't ask about those debates... @_o;; Though now I'm curious. D: *cough* Of course I'm curious. But I can completely imagine getting really pissed about that kind of subject in debate. There are a lot of things that people can have to say about that sort of thing.

i really shouldn't be so curious myself, because every single person on the anti-bi LI side no matter their motivation makes me absolutely froth

and yet i am curious what the general bsn consensus is.

Like the Garrus thread, I consider this thread a relative sanctum of healing and salvation, so I will try to sum up the debates as gently as physically possible, and hope I do not break everything.

In general, it was agreed by everyone that for realism's sake it would be good to have LIs that represent all the various gender identities... some like Sebastian are entirely straight, but others are strictly gay and then some are bi. However, it is also generally conceded that, if they attempted to put such a system into place, it would be inefficient resource-allocation-wise, for obvious reasons.

Furthermore, there is a slight problem in cases where you have a LOT of LIs, like in Mass Effect. Four people hitting on you at once = perfectly navigable. Nine = probably annoying. It's not so much the genders involved, but the sheer number of people. There are several propopsed compromises to the "harem problem," compromises that always included having some LIs of both genders available to all players from the start.

The problem is that any discussion of this eventually devolves into the "no gay" button debate that caused so much controversy on these very forums, and that we should not continue here. It was that very debate that chased all shreds of reason from the Mass Effect forums, and people rent their garments and gnashed their teeth.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juin 2011 - 08:21 .

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...

Just to bring the topic back towards Anders a LITTLE bit (or at least to pretend to), I think he's pretty intense (I say intense, some people say "bat-sh*t crazy" ) and for my personal flavor I prefer him with m!Hawke. lulz. XD Because somehow I like m/m relationships better (when they're well-written) because they tend to "feel" more "equal" than a m/f relationship. I know this is purely based on my own life experiences and stuff, though, so it is, I suppose beyond debate. o-o And simply a comment on my own idiom.

well, if we're going this direction

i prefer male hawke with anders as well actually, which i guess leaves us in a bit of a minority, but oh well. i wouldn't say it's because of any sort of... inherent or perceived inequality in heterosexual relationships, though :\\ i'm actually not quite sure what to think of that

instead of just poking holes, i'll be constructive. i've narrowed my preference in this fandom down to three core reasons, basically:
one, i'm a gay person, so it's easier to relate to same-sex stuff of either gender than it is to anything heterosexual
two, from a more social perspective, straight romances are so prevalent in EVERY MEDIUM EVER so the dynamic of them is... idk, completely played out to me, i way prefer exploring couple dynamics that are less carved out
and finally, i just really really hate the OMG I'LL HURT YOU crap anders spews at f!hawkes, and it leads me to like the interaction between garrett and anders way more than marian, haha

those are my 3am feelings

Modifié par ademska, 14 juin 2011 - 08:29 .

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Like the Garrus thread, I consider this thread a relative sanctum of healing and salvation, so I will try to sum up the debates as gently as physically possible, and hope I do not break everything.

In general, it was agreed by everyone that for realism's sake it would be good to have LIs that represent all the various gender identities... some like Sebastian are entirely straight, but others are strictly gay and then some are bi. However, it is also generally conceded that, if they attempted to put such a system into place, it would be inefficient resource-allocation-wise, for obvious reasons.

Furthermore, there is a slight problem in cases where you have a LOT of LIs, like in Mass Effect. Four people hitting on you at once = perfectly navigable. Nine = probably annoying. It's not so much the genders involved, but the sheer number of people. There are several propopsed compromises to the "harem problem," compromises that always included having LIs of both genders available to all players from the start.

The problem is that any discussion of this eventually devolves into the "no gay" button debate that caused so much controversy on these very forums, and that we should not continue here. It was that very debate that chased all shreds of reason from the Mass Effect forums, and people rent their garments and gnashed their teeth.

oh, i have no intention of dragging this thread into the muck, i've intentionally stayed off the other bsn boards as of late for that exact reason

at the very least, it seems the majority is looking at this from a logical gameplay perspective and not one of excuses for thinly-veiled bigotry or agenda-pushing

so that makes me happy?

[ReiSilver]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Like the Garrus thread, I consider this thread a relative sanctum of healing and salvation, so I will try to sum up the debates as gently as physically possible, and hope I do not break everything.

In general, it was agreed by everyone that for realism's sake it would be good to have LIs that represent all the various gender identities... some like Sebastian are entirely straight, but others are strictly gay and then some are bi. However, it is also generally conceded that, if they attempted to put such a system into place, it would be inefficient resource-allocation-wise, for obvious reasons.

Furthermore, there is a slight problem in cases where you have a LOT of LIs, like in Mass Effect. Four people hitting on you at once = perfectly navigable. Nine = probably annoying. It's not so much the genders involved, but the sheer number of people. There are several propopsed compromises to the "harem problem," compromises that always included having some LIs of both genders available to all players from the start.

The problem is that any discussion of this eventually devolves into the "no gay" button debate that caused so much controversy on these very forums, and that we should not continue here. It was that very debate that chased all shreds of reason from the Mass Effect forums, and people rent their garments and gnashed their teeth.

guuuh I remember that. I'm very passionate about certain things and when BSN threads pop up relating to those I get stuck between "You have to let your voice be heard! Someone is wrong on the internet!" and "You're not going to change anyone's mind and all you'll get is a headache and rage."
I've had to step away from threads regaurding Ashley's new look and people wanting femShep's animations to be more 'feminine' I just have to back away from the keyboard sometimes.

(Also, you like Slayers??? *HUG* )

[CulturalGeekGirl]

A lot of people are very reasonable. It's the person who comes in, doesn't read any of the lead-up debate, and posts the same damn dumb thing as the last guy. And there is an endless supply of "don't read, post same thing" guy.

But time for happier things!



Another aimo-based adorableness.

Why is Jealous!Anders one of my favorite things. Ugh sad eyes.

[ademska]

whenever i romance fenris and anders starts giving me the jealous talkies, this is what i unfailingly picture:

[kromify]

oh so much to read this morning.

vetinari's my favourite char. but i think anders could be manipulated by him - no assassination needed

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ReiSilver wrote...

guuuh I remember that. I'm very passionate about certain things and when BSN threads pop up relating to those I get stuck between "You have to let your voice be heard! Someone is wrong on the internet!" and "You're not going to change anyone's mind and all you'll get is a headache and rage."
I've had to step away from threads regaurding Ashley's new look and people wanting femShep's animations to be more 'feminine' I just have to back away from the keyboard sometimes.
(Also, you like Slayers??? *HUG* )

I also have a terrible case of "Someone is wrong on the internet!" It's made worse by the fact that several times, on the ME BSN boards, I actually DID manage to change some people's minds. And once it worked once... it's harder to give up each time. Damn selective reinforcement! 

Slayers! As limited as this may make me seem, Lina is still my favorite female character and Zelgadis is still my favorite male character, out of pretty much anything ever. I'm glad that show didn't have rigidly established cannon couples, just heavily implied ones, because I can ship whoever I want to ship! (number one pet peeve in media: smart girls always end up with dumb guys. WHY IS THIS, MEDIA?)

One of the reasons I love Femshep so much is that she was the first female video game character who I felt measured up to Lina (I saw that show at a very vital developmental time. Shut up!). It's funny, I also got that "Yeah, I'm a badass who is going to save the world!" vibe from Mahariel, and a bit from Surana/Cousland, but Hawke just doesn't move me in the same way.

Hawke is more of an everyman than a big damn hero. Also, there's something about losing everything at the beginning of your adventure (DA:O) that is immensely freeing. The slow seep of loss for Hawke makes her feel more mortal and less powerful. This wouldn't be a problem if more of the loss happened earlier, I feel... but I may be wrong.

[ReiSilver]

It is totally my head-canon that my Fenris romancing mage Hawke drunkenly cries into Anders feathery shoulders during the 3 year gap, totally oblivious to Anders sitting there thinking why wont you love me? I'm right HERE!
Poor friend-zoned Anders XP

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Slayers! As limited as this may make me seem, Lina is still my favorite female character and Zelgadis is still my favorite male character, out of pretty much anything ever. I'm glad that show didn't have rigidly established cannon couples, just heavily implied ones, because I can ship whoever I want to ship! (number one pet peeve in media: smart girls always end up with dumb guys. WHY IS THIS, MEDIA?)

One of the reasons I love Femshep so much is that she was the first female video game character who I felt measured up to Lina (I saw that show at a very vital developmental time. Shut up!). It's funny, I also got that "Yeah, I'm a badass who is going to save the world!" vibe from Mahariel, and a bit from Surana/Cousland, but Hawke just doesn't move me in the same way.

Hawke is more of an everyman than a big damn hero. Also, there's something about losing everything at the beginning of your adventure (DA:O) that is immensely freeing. The slow seep of loss for Hawke makes her feel more mortal and less powerful. This wouldn't be a problem if more of the loss happened earlier, I feel... but I may be
wrong.

I LOOOVE Lina and Zelgadiss with all my nostalgic fangirl glee. Lina to this day still strikes me as a uniquely strong and heroic female character who still manages to have deep characetr flaws, and Zelgadiss hits all the right cool/angsty guy who is still easily flustered buttons. I got into the series after seeing fan art of Zel (He was also the first character I ever read slash fiction of) and I'd agree Shep does of stand up to par with Lina for the sheer quality of "Step back, I got this." heroic competence I guess I'd call it.

Modifié par ReiSilver, 14 juin 2011 - 08:49 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

All Friend-zoned Anderses end up with either their Warden or Nate.

This way we can enjoy his sad eyes without feeling too guilty. It is the Perfect Drug.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juin 2011 - 08:45 .

[Amondra]

ademska wrote...

whenever i romance fenris and anders starts giving me the jealous talkies, this is what i unfailingly picture:

That song is his theme song no joke<_<

[AndreaDraco]

I don't know if this has been posted in this thread yet (I presume it was), but I just found this beautiful picture of Anders and I thought I'd share it here!


by SweetFoxy7

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 14 juin 2011 - 11:05 .

[SurelyForth]

Just so everyone knows, and in case anyone cares, every time you say "I prefer to play m/m because of the inherent inequalities between f/m", I punch things. Hard. And the return to play my female Hawke and female Wardens and my female Sheps and wonder why everything is so goshdarned hard and think "if only Hawke/the Warden/Shep had a penis, then the Chantry wouldn't have exploded/the Blight would have been over at Ostagar/the Reapers would have stayed away after ME."

Anywaaaaaay...I have an Anders art! Granted, I commissioned it, but it's still Andersy and his is expression is adorable. It's slightly cropped on account of Hawke-butt, but you can click on it and get it in its full gloriousness.



by the fantastic PayRoo

Speaking of Payroo, she started a Texts from Thedas tumblr, which is going to be hilarious (and probably NSFW a little). If you're on tumblr, you should follow it!

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 juin 2011 - 01:31 .

[ashyraine]

@surely That pic is noms. I sure hope Will succeeds

[SurelyForth]

@Elle Agreed! Less clothing for Anders around the manse would be fantastic!

And...this week's prompt is up at Manifestos Welcome.

ashyraine wrote...

@surely That pic is noms. I sure hope Will succeeds

Thanks! And she will. The fact that he's in bed means that smut success is within reach.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 juin 2011 - 01:06 .