57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialater]

State your personal reasons, that's not the problem. It's when something is judged to be better and the only way to do things that I begin to have issues with it.

Modifié par Sialater, 14 juin 2011 - 02:58 .

[SurelyForth]

ipgd wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

And the return to play my female Hawke and female Wardens and my female Sheps and wonder why everything is so goshdarned hard and think "if only Hawke/the Warden/Shep had a penis, then the Chantry wouldn't have exploded/the Blight would have been over at Ostagar/the Reapers would have stayed away after ME."

I doubt the people who prefer m/m are really out to keep f!Hawke down. I don't mean to be a dick or anything, but you sort of seem to have built people who make innocent offhand comments about their preferences into huge boogeymen ascribed with far more malice than is actually there. I get why you'd be so mad about it every time this comes up if they really were the irritating Cousland fangirls who actively beat down anyone who plays a different way, as you seem to like to compare them to, but I don't see that happening at all.

Well, when someone flat out says "I prefer to play m/m because I don't see f/m as being as equal" that's pretty...straightforward, so to speak. If you cannot personally figure out a way to roleplay a woman who is as strong as her male counterpart in a game that goes out of its way to make things as equal as possible, it bothers me.

To keep it F!Hawke specific, I've heard her multiple criticisms of her and those who play female Hawke in general AND those who choose to romance Anders with F!Hawke. And not just here, although it has happened and I know it made some people uncomfortable when it did, but in all the places where I am out and about in the fandom. I have a tendency to get annoyed whenever any artist/writer gets criticized for who they choose to portray in their works and this is currently the criticism that annoys me the most (and I have been on the receiving end of it which does make it more personal), especially since criticism is hardly mandatory in order to participate in a fandom.

[ipgd]

Sialater wrote...

Good.    Then we weren't talking about you.

I am aware. I am recalling a tangentially related issue that has been going on for months :innocent:

SurelyForth wrote...

Well, when someone flat out says "I prefer to play m/m because I don't see f/m as being as equal" that's pretty...straightforward, so to speak. If you cannot personally figure out a way to roleplay a woman who is as strong as her male counterpart in a game that goes out of its way to make things as equal as possible, it bothers me.

To keep it F!Hawke specific, I've heard her multiple criticisms of her and those who play female Hawke in general AND those who choose to romance Anders with F!Hawke. And not just here, although it has happened and I know it made some people uncomfortable when it did, but in all the places where I am out and about in the fandom. I have a tendency to get annoyed whenever any artist/writer gets criticized for who they choose to portray in their works and this is currently the criticism that annoys me the most (and I have been on the receiving end of it which does make it more personal), especially since criticism is hardly mandatory in order to participate in a fandom.

I'm only familiar with what goes on on these boards, really, but you do seem to take those frustrations out on people here who really don't have any of the qualities you seem to take issue with. I mean, getting compared to Cousie fangirls, gosh.

Modifié par ipgd, 14 juin 2011 - 03:01 .

[Sialater]

ipgd wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Good.    Then we weren't talking about you.

I am aware. I am recalling a tangentially related issue that has been going on for months :innocent:

As was I.... I don't like it when things fester under the surface.

though I wouldn't compare us to Princess CousCous fangirls.

[kromify]

 on the other hand these people aren't being freaked out by gay romance 


dare i ask about cousgirls?  

Modifié par kromify, 14 juin 2011 - 03:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

SurelyForth wrote...

Just so everyone knows, and in case anyone cares, every time you say "I prefer to play m/m because of the inherent inequalities between f/m", I punch things. Hard.!

Well they are right. Female Hawke can do so much better.

Male Hawke sounds like the kind of dufus who would sink to that level

[Sialater]

kromify wrote...

 on the other hand these people aren't being freaked out by gay romance 

You're right, we're not.  

But... but... Anders loves us, too!  

:innocent:

[Sialater]

kromify wrote...

 on the other hand these people aren't being freaked out by gay romance 


dare i ask about cousgirls?  

Better to not.

[ipgd]

kromify wrote...

dare i ask about cousgirls?  

Fangirls who assert that Alistair/Cousland is THE ONLY WAY and anyone who romances Alistair with a dwarf/elf/mage is inferior.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Male Hawke sounds like the kind of dufus who would sink to that level [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Okay, you can complain about anything else about DA2, but not Boulton. He is off limits.


okay i gotta go to the bank BEE ARR BEE

Modifié par ipgd, 14 juin 2011 - 03:08 .

[Sarielle]

SurelyForth wrote...

ipgd wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

And the return to play my female Hawke and female Wardens and my female Sheps and wonder why everything is so goshdarned hard and think "if only Hawke/the Warden/Shep had a penis, then the Chantry wouldn't have exploded/the Blight would have been over at Ostagar/the Reapers would have stayed away after ME."

I doubt the people who prefer m/m are really out to keep f!Hawke down. I don't mean to be a dick or anything, but you sort of seem to have built people who make innocent offhand comments about their preferences into huge boogeymen ascribed with far more malice than is actually there. I get why you'd be so mad about it every time this comes up if they really were the irritating Cousland fangirls who actively beat down anyone who plays a different way, as you seem to like to compare them to, but I don't see that happening at all.

Well, when someone flat out says "I prefer to play m/m because I don't see f/m as being as equal" that's pretty...straightforward, so to speak.

I just assumed they meant as it's written...IE the whole "I'll hurt you!" when romancing with a FemHawke (if you pick certain flirts right off) vs. him apparently not warning off a male Hawke.

[Sialater]

But he DOES warn off a male Hawke, it's just later on.

[kromify]

 anderfans are so much cooler  

[kromify]

 i like it when he warns femhawke off... it's a personal challege  

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...

But he DOES warn off a male Hawke, it's just later on.

 

Yeah but by that time you've seen him acting prety crazy so it's not as facepalm worthy as it happening when you first flirt with him. 

I'm of the mind that neither romance is better written than the other. Each one has some headdesky worthy moments and well...pick your poison. 

That said Anders is a melodramatic drama queen either way so it's not like only FemHawke has to deal with that lunacy. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 juin 2011 - 03:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...
dare i ask about cousgirls?  

It's a pejorative term for those who like the Warden / Alistair Queen ending, usually criticized for being a "happily ever after" ending, which is not entirely accurate.

Alternatively, in Arabic, "cous" means vagina. Though I am not sure what "vagina girl" means, it sounds redundant.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
And this has nothing to to with the personal distaste you have for your own Hawke who happened to be male? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

All Hawkes sounds the same. A peasant trying to sound like a noble, so perfectly representative. LadyHawke on the otherhand sounds cute.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2011 - 03:17 .

[Ryzaki]

You shut your wh*re mouth KoP. Boulton sounds sexy.  (and the first part is said in jest lest someone jump down my throat) 

Plus...sounding noble is about facepalm worthy in the first place since he grew in LOTHERING.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 juin 2011 - 03:19 .

[Sialater]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...

But he DOES warn off a male Hawke, it's just later on.

 

Yeah but by that time you've seen him acting prety crazy so it's not as facepalm worthy as it happening when you first flirt with him. 

I'm of the mind that neither romance is better written than the other. Each one has some headdesky worthy moments and well...pick your poison. 

That said Anders is a melodramatic drama queen either way so it's not like only FemHawke has to deal with that lunacy. 

I totally agree, which is why the accusations of inequality are headscratching to me.

[beckaliz]

All right, here are my personal reasons... Since people are taking it personally.

I've read way too much fiction where the woman is supposed to be strong, and she just ends up being an immature idiot. The strongest female characters in fiction have a tendency to be written very poorly (and BioWare is NOT guilty of this!!!). I've got Twilight on my mind which is a VERY bad example, but there's also Laurel K. Hamilton's books, which I liked at first but made me ever more pissed off. And Robert Jordan is HORRIBLE with women also. And George R. R. Martin has some women characters I'm seriously not fond of, though I don't consider him a bad writer. On the other side of that, I've been reading too much Manga lately and the girls in those are more likely to be pathetic than not. I'll also acknowledge that there's way too much inequality in a lot of m/m stuff I've read, so it's more a matter of bad writing than anything. (I'll repeat that BioWare is NOT guilty of this.) Even when the writing is bad, there are still weak girls out there that ****** me off.

Also, in our society there is a great taboo against having a strong, independent personality as a woman. Being a woman, and being told that I'm intimidating because of that, and having it affect me as far as finding a decent relationship goes, that's horribly frustrating. I think it would be easier to be a guy sometimes, but I don't actually want to be one. And any same-sex relationship, whether it's m/m or f/f is going to be more equal, to my way of thinking. It's therefore also a little frustrating that I'm definitely not gay myself. ^^;;;;

I used to write with a friend of mine, and most of our characters were f/m and they were all strong minded girls. And I have very fond memories of those characters and their dynamics. So I'm not against this. At. All.

My word choice was bad, and I regret that it made people angry. None of this changes the fact that, in our modern society, the deck is still stacked a bit against a woman's favor as far as being independent and strong goes. I've had discussions with guy friends about this recently. My buddy Jeff, who I met recently on a construction job in Oklahoma, was very informative. I'm likable and funny and fun to be around, but at the same time I seem unapproachable.I certainly have no trouble making friends, but beyond that...

In a lot of writing (not BioWare's), a strong woman comes across as being overbearing or just a b*tch (or a strong woman ends up weak when relating to a man she's in love with), so since I resent that, and I can't stand weak women, I just can't usually feel any attachment with heterosexual relationships in most fiction. So, since I'm not attracted to girls, I usually like reading m/m stories more.

Modifié par beckaliz, 14 juin 2011 - 03:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

You shut your wh*re mouth KoP. Boulton sounds sexy.  (and the first part is said in jest lest someone jump down my throat)

Which part, the "you" or "shut" or "wh*re"?

Yea, and I've heard peopel say Cailan sounds charming. So I am not surprised.

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...
I totally agree, which is why the accusations of inequality are headscratching to me.

 

Yeah...I don't get it either now that I think about it. FemHawke isn't treated that differently and te differences could be explained by Anders fearing coming on too strong with the "I'm a monster" would send M!Hawke running with "riiiight. I'm just gonna be going now." (why he doesn't have this fear with FemHawke I'll never understand. Maybe because he's around tough as nails females alot? I dunno). 

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You shut your wh*re mouth KoP. Boulton sounds sexy.  (and the first part is said in jest lest someone jump down my throat)

Which part, the "you" or "shut" or "wh*re"?

Yea, and I've heard peopel say Cailan sounds charming. So I am not surprised.

 

Oh you think you're funny! XD 

Whatever KoP. Boulton has a sexy voice. You're just jealous  

[Sialater]

beckaliz wrote...

All right, here are my personal reasons... Since people are taking it personally.

I've read way too much fiction where the woman is supposed to be strong, and she just ends up being an immature idiot. The strongest female characters in fiction have a tendency to be written very poorly (and BioWare is NOT guilty of this!!!). I've got Twilight on my mind which is a VERY bad example, but there's also Laurel K. Hamilton's books, which I liked at first but made me ever more pissed off. And Robert Jordan is HORRIBLE with women also. And George R. R. Martin has some women characters I'm seriously not fond of, though I don't consider him a bad writer. On the other side of that, I've been reading too much Manga lately and the girls in those are more likely to be pathetic than not. I'll also acknowledge that there's way too much inequality in a lot of m/m stuff I've read, so it's more a matter of bad writing than anything. (I'll repeat that BioWare is NOT guilty of this.) Even when the writing is bad, there are still weak girls out there that ****** me off.

Also, in our society there is a great taboo against having a strong, independent personality as a woman. Being a woman, and being told that I'm intimidating because of that, and having it affect me as far as finding a decent relationship goes, that's horribly frustrating. I think it would be easier to be a guy sometimes, but I don't actually want to be one. And any same-sex relationship, whether it's m/m or f/f is going to be more equal, to my way of thinking. It's therefore also a little frustrating that I'm definitely not gay myself. ^^;;;;

I used to write with a friend of mine, and most of our characters were f/m and they were all strong minded girls. And I have very fond memories of those characters and their dynamics. So I'm not against this. At. All.

My word choice was bad, and I regret that it made people angry. None of this changes the fact that, in our modern society, the deck is still stacked a bit against a woman's favor as far as being independent and strong goes. I've had discussions with guy friends about this recently. My buddy Jeff, who I met recently on a construction job in Oklahoma, was very informative. I'm likable and funny and fun to be around, but at the same time I seem unapproachable.I certainly have no trouble making friends, but beyond that...

In a lot of writing (not BioWare's), a strong woman comes across as being overbearing or just a b*tch (or a strong woman ends up weak when relating to a man she's in love with), so since I resent that, and I can't stand weak women, I just can't usually feel any attachment with heterosexual relationships in most fiction. So, since I'm not attracted to girls, I usually like reading m/m stories more.

I understand where you're coming from, but this isn't the case in this romance.  Hawke is who you make her out to be.

[SurelyForth]

@igpd Most of my posts here have been in responses to things I have seen here...I think. I try not to just pop up out of the blue all ranty, so I like to have a quote to work with (which I didn't quote this morning, but it was more a general statement on something I've seen come up a few times before in this thread).

As I'm almost positive that I don't think I've ever brought up princess Cousland here (and my opinion on that end is definitely that vocal Princess Cousland fans have a tendency to hate on other Ali/Warden pairings and to be entitled when it comes to content that would only apply to them...plus the fact that it's overrated for something that is consistently heralded as The Best). I may have, though. I post a lot.