57020 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

ademska wrote...
What I kind of hope for is that if Anders is dead, Vengeance or Justice is still around and PISSED. Not in Anders' body (because I think that would be too close to the 'bringing him back' thing they said they wouldn't do) but there was a courtyard  of dead mages/templars around when Anders died, so... yeah, in some corpse. If Anders is alive, he's still sometimes in control, and able to moderate J/V's actions somewhat. If not, you just get word of this crazy pissed-off spirit wreaking havoc.

Here's a really crazy thought. I know spirits and people are supposed to be seperated when the person in question dies, but what if that isn't always the case? What if Anders remains grafted to Justice even as his soul returns to the Fade? Or seperates but now he's a spirit too, stuck in the Fade with no way back?

Yeah it's all very very unlikely. But hey, in a world as full of magic and mystery as Dragon Age, it's not impossible.

i'm lookin at you, leliana

Oh, Leliana's been a Chantry spy since the start. It is very obvious. Did you ever believe her "vision" story? Really?

[Miri1984]

I like the idea of there being codices about the "Legend of the Destroyer" or "Anders: Freedom Fighter or Sexy Lunatic?" by Brother Genitivi in DA3. My PC will squeal when she finds them.

[YamiSnuffles]

Miri1984 wrote...

I like the idea of there being codices about the "Legend of the Destroyer" or "Anders: Freedom Fighter or Sexy Lunatic?" by Brother Genitivi in DA3. My PC will squeal when she finds them.

LOL, I love it. The image of Brother Genitivi sitting down to write "Anders: Freedom Fighter or Sexy Lunatic?" is enough to make me squeal.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I always suspected Leliana. Always. How strongly she pushes to join you, her stupid Chantry this Chantry that stuff, her vision, her rapidly changing cover story. I think she's an interesting character, but spy? Spy all the way.

I'm always fiercely protective of my party members. Even though they fought all the time, Alistair and Morrigan were my favorites in DA:O because they got there first damnit, so they took priority (I loved Zevran, but I didn't feel responsible for him in the same way. I was Alistair's commander sort of, and Morrigan's first actual friend.) That's probably why I was so prejudiced against the Chantry, even on my non-Dalish Wardens... because Ali had been so miserable there and they wanted to put Morrigan in a cage. Screw. That. Noise.

[DreamerM]

Doesn't change the fact that Anders is more important to the events at the Chantry then the Champion is. Anders is the one with the symbolic value that might be able to avert a flat-out war between Mage and Templar. If he's dead, even better, the Chantry can spin his story however they want to. That seems a lot more convenient then tracking down a Champion who is one-degree removed from the most important event.

[ipgd]

DreamerM wrote...

Doesn't change the fact that Anders is more important to the events at the Chantry then the Champion is. Anders is the one with the symbolic value that might be able to avert a flat-out war between Mage and Templar.

I'm sure the Chantry would be able to pick up that Anders would have nooooooooooo interest working with them. I can't imagine they would want to do anything but kill him, were they to get their hands on him.

If he's dead, even better, the Chantry can spin his story however they want to. That seems a lot more convenient then tracking down a Champion who is one-degree removed from the most important event.

I'm fairly certain the mage revolution and Sebastian would get to appropriating and/or demonizing his image for their purposes before the Chantry would. 3 years after the fact, it's probably too late for them.

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I always suspected Leliana. Always. How strongly she pushes to join you, her stupid Chantry this Chantry that stuff, her vision, her rapidly changing cover story. I think she's an interesting character, but spy? Spy all the way.
 

you know, retroactively, i really can totally see it. like it's not a character change that baffles me, and if i'm honest i actually REALLY like the development

but when she first showed up, i was still like "...wat"

and i imagine my pro-mage romanced heather cousland wasn't particularly thrilled with it

I'm always fiercely protective of my party members. Even though they
fought all the time, Alistair and Morrigan were my favorites in DA:O
because they got there first damnit, so they took priority (I loved
Zevran, but I didn't feel responsible for him in the same way. I
was Alistair's commander sort of, and Morrigan's first actual friend.)
That's probably why I was so prejudiced against the Chantry, even on my
non-Dalish Wardens... because Ali had been so miserable there and they
wanted to put Morrigan in a cage. Screw. That. Noise.

we had this discussion earlier, how playing through non-cousland/aeducan origins first tends to more negatively color one's perception of the chantry.  i'm an incredibly pragmatic person irl, far moreso than i might appear on ze internet, and my stances on fictional media issues tends to be squarely in the middle

...except for the damn Chantry.  i ran a f!cousland the first go-round, and by the time i got around to m!amell and and a tabris playthrough, i was vehemently anti-those bastards.

it's actually a little baffling to me how some people aren't.

[DreamerM]

ipgd wrote...
I'm sure the Chantry would be able to pick up that Anders would have nooooooooooo interest working with them. I can't imagine they would want to do anything but kill him, were they to get their hands on him.

We don't know much about the Chantry, but I wouldn't put it past them to have some means of pursuasion at their disposal. Anyone who's played Awakening knows that even Justice could be talked into some very unlikely things if handled properly.

ipgd wrote...
I'm fairly certain the mage revolution and Sebastian would get to appropriating and/or demonizing his image for their purposes before the Chantry would. 3 years after the fact, it's probably too late for them.

And yet, Cassandra dismisses Anders as a Gray Warden deserter when Varric finally brings him up. It makes me wonder if perhaps Anders's exact role in events was lost in the chaos that surrounded the Chantry bombing. Maybe all anyone remembers is that the Champion was there when the Chantry went boom, the Champion was so famous that his/her presense eclipsed everybody else's, even the guy who actually did the boom. Which would be kind of disapointing, if understandable. Fog of war and all that.

[ademska]

DreamerM wrote...

ipgd wrote...
I'm fairly certain the mage revolution and Sebastian would get to appropriating and/or demonizing his image for their purposes before the Chantry would. 3 years after the fact, it's probably too late for them.

And yet, Cassandra dismisses Anders as a Gray Warden deserter when Varric finally brings him up. It makes me wonder if perhaps Anders's exact role in events was lost in the chaos that surrounded the Chantry bombing. Maybe all anyone remembers is that the Champion was there when the Chantry went boom, the Champion was so famous that his/her presense eclipsed everybody else's, even the guy who actually did the boom. Which would be kind of disapointing, if understandable. Fog of war and all that.

this is actually precisely what i have always assumed about the aftermath of the game.  there's this big stigma in the fic-writing world that anders is reduced to muddy hovels because he's constantly on the run from templars and is the "most wanted man in thedas"

meanwhile, cassandra doesn't seem to give much a **** about him.  not just in pursuit, but in mere acknowledgment that he did a naughty thing. "that warden, anders".  i mean i understand it's a framed narrative and they didn't want to spoil their own game, but it would have made more sense even to just have her be like "AND ANDERS BLARG" instead of being rather blase about him

[CulturalGeekGirl]

DreamerM wrote...

Doesn't change the fact that Anders is more important to the events at the Chantry then the Champion is. Anders is the one with the symbolic value that might be able to avert a flat-out war between Mage and Templar. If he's dead, even better, the Chantry can spin his story however they want to. That seems a lot more convenient then tracking down a Champion who is one-degree removed from the most important event.

The point (and this is the point that most people miss in DA2) is that who did what and why at the Chantry does not matter at all anymore. That happened. It's not going to unhappen.

It's all about who has agency now. Anders has basically given up all of his agency. He can't show his face around non-mages without getting stabbed (most likely), and mages who are directly associated with him risk getting painted with the same brush. He's either a political hot potato with no way of acting productively on a large scale anymore, or he's very publically, very famously, dead. And if all that is wrong, if he's been forgotten by history then... well then he's equally useless.

The end of the game is basically Anders handing the full reigns of agency over to Hawke. Regardless of what you think of Hawke personally, that dude was beloved in Kirkwall by the end there. What he chose to do probably swayed a lot of opinions "If the Champion sided with mages, maybe there's something to this whole liberty thing" vs "The Champion saw through that crap the mages were trying and put a stop to it!" 

The fact that Cassandra is looking for both the Warden and the Champion (rather than Anders, Morrigan, Flemeth, etc) shows that what she wants is someone with broad-based, mainstream appeal. Someone with a history of doing big, great things. Someone whose name, if mentioned, everyone will recognize. The Warden was specifically commended and remembered by the King of Ferelden and is responsible for the restoration of the heroic mythos of the Warden. The Hero has a book written about him, was known as a man of the people, and handled the aftermath of the Chantry explosion.

Agency: the freedom to act, and the ability to make concrete changes in the world. The Warden and the Champion still have it. Anders exhausted all of his in DA2.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 juin 2011 - 12:33 .

[ademska]

@CGG you'll pardon me as your words once again influence my thoughts

time to ponder hmmmmmm

[DreamerM]

ademska wrote...
meanwhile, cassandra doesn't seem to give much a **** about him.  not just in pursuit, but in mere acknowledgment that he did a naughty thing. "that warden, anders".  i mean i understand it's a framed narrative and they didn't want to spoil their own game, but it would have made more sense even to just have her be like "AND ANDERS BLARG" instead of being rather blase about him

She even makes it sound like the most naughty thing he did was leave the Gray Wardens. Really.

And there's where probablity strains. Anders was not unknown in Kirkwall; especially if he was openly living with the Champion.  And there were a TON of witnesses who saw him lift his staff in the air and light up that Chantry. I have a hard time imagining that they forgot about it.

Really, Anders "should" be the main character of the story. He's the one who did the stuff that was most important to the game's ending. I love Fenris and Marrill and Isabella as much as the next person, but how big a role did they really play in how the story was going to end? (not talking epilogue). Varric is gonna protect his interests and Aveline, of course, is going to uphold Law and Order, but none of them came close to how important Anders was to how things were going to turn out.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

DreamerM wrote...

ademska wrote...
meanwhile, cassandra doesn't seem to give much a **** about him.  not just in pursuit, but in mere acknowledgment that he did a naughty thing. "that warden, anders".  i mean i understand it's a framed narrative and they didn't want to spoil their own game, but it would have made more sense even to just have her be like "AND ANDERS BLARG" instead of being rather blase about him

She even makes it sound like the most naughty thing he did was leave the Gray Wardens. Really.

And there's where probablity strains. Anders was not unknown in Kirkwall; especially if he was openly living with the Champion.  And there were a TON of witnesses who saw him lift his staff in the air and light up that Chantry. I have a hard time imagining that they forgot about it.

Really, Anders "should" be the main character of the story. He's the one who did the stuff that was most important to the game's ending. I love Fenris and Marrill and Isabella as much as the next person, but how big a role did they really play in how the story was going to end? (not talking epilogue). Varric is gonna protect his interests and Aveline, of course, is going to uphold Law and Order, but none of them came close to how important Anders was to how things were going to turn out.

Yes and no.

Other than the Chantry Bomb, one single act, the aftermath of which he has no control over, nothing Anders does in the plot actually matters, outside of how it affects Hawke's opinions. So a few mages get saved and other ones die... that's not gonna change the world.

The only way anything else Anders does is important relates to his influence over Hawke. Hawke makes the final decisions in the game when it comes to everything. The only thing Anders really was really doing is leading a failed underground and publishing ineffective manifestos - not exactly a dramatic, exciting life for a video game protagonist. The fact is, without Hawke, Anders wouldn't have been able to survive, and he has no way to influence the world or Kirkwall. Without Hawke, Kirkwall would have been destroyed several times over early on. Without Hawke, Anders wouldn't have encountered half of the resources he has access to.

Anders (and to some extent, Fenris and Merril) serve to inform Hawke about the issue of Mages and Templars. While Anders makes more definite and active efforts to forward his cause, they're all completely ineffective until he sees a single chance for him to make a splash. He does the Chantry bomb simply because he isn't an influential man in any way by that point. He realizes that he isn't the hero, he isn't going to rally an army of public support behind him. He's not a leader of men, he's a guy who notices one time and place where a single man has the ability to do something that shakes the foundations of life in Thedas. He realizes that the only way for him, personally, to help mages is to incite an event that someone stronger and more charismatic (like Hawke or the Warden or DA3 protagonist) can use to gain power.

Even if people remember Anders bombed the Chantry, he wasn't famous or beloved. He might be remembered, might even be glorified or villainized in the future, but he wasn't a leader. He was a spark in the fireworks factory, and that is all. It's Hawke and people like Hawke who will be there to either put out the fire or step back and watch the explosions brighten the sky.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 juin 2011 - 01:03 .

[DreamerM]

CulturalGeekGirl, I doff my hat to you. That was very well said, and makes all too much sense to me.

And it does paint a better picture of what Hawke, regardless of player, must be like as a person. The image constantly painted of him/her is that of a person for whom leadership is so effortless that they can just walk into a room, any room, and it's like nobody else matters.

[ademska]

DreamerM wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl, I doff my hat to you. That was very well said, and makes all too much sense to me.

And it does paint a better picture of what Hawke, regardless of player, must be like as a person. The image constantly painted of him/her is that of a person for whom leadership is so effortless that they can just walk into a room, any room, and it's like nobody else matters.

it's like every time she posts i just go

"oh... well then.  okay yeah duh."

i sound like such an ass-kisser but CGG and ipgd are my epiphany people

Modifié par ademska, 15 juin 2011 - 02:29 .

[Sarielle]

While CGC has a very poignant explanation, I always just assumed Cassandra thought Hawke was more influential than he/she actually was. In the end, for a lot of it, Hawke was just along for the ride...but Cassandra obviously doesn't know that.

Anders, they want to kill. Hawke they look at as some mastermind (lol) that could maybe fix this whole mess.

[Giggles_Manically]

I find it funny that Cassandra thinks that Hawke is the big bad when the game starts.

[ademska]

Sarielle wrote...

While CGC has a very poignant explanation, I always just assumed Cassandra thought Hawke was more influential than he/she actually was. In the end, for a lot of it, Hawke was just along for the ride...but Cassandra obviously doesn't know that.

Anders, they want to kill. Hawke they look at as some mastermind (lol) that could maybe fix this whole mess.

i'm sure if they had anders in their hands, they'd do something nasty to him. but i get the distinct impression that cassandra was barely even aware of his involvement, certainly not the full extent of it

[ipgd]

Shhh, I like Anders being the main character with my Hawke as his compliant yes-man doormat.


Incidentally, part of the reason why I kind of don't want Hawke to the return as the protagonist of DA3, my undying love for Boulton aside. Considering DA3 is almost certainly going to be a return to form, I am worried my ineffectual, narcissistic layabout of a Hawke would be forced into being heroic and proactive I won't have this Bioware don't ruin my roleplaying experience


Also I am convinced Anders will be important and relevant because that would be the biggest wasted opportunity of a martyr deconstruction ever if Hawke really takes all the credit.

Modifié par ipgd, 15 juin 2011 - 02:27 .

[Sarielle]

ademska wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

While CGC has a very poignant explanation, I always just assumed Cassandra thought Hawke was more influential than he/she actually was. In the end, for a lot of it, Hawke was just along for the ride...but Cassandra obviously doesn't know that.

Anders, they want to kill. Hawke they look at as some mastermind (lol) that could maybe fix this whole mess.

i'm sure if they had anders in their hands, they'd do something nasty to him. but i get the distinct impression that cassandra was barely even aware of his involvement, certainly not the full extent of it

Sorry, that was supposed to say "they'd," implying if they knew the actual story they would want to kill Anders...but they obviously don't, so they're not after him.

And I'm rather fond of my layabout Hawke as well. She didn't even attempt to become Viscount because she couldn't be arsed to put in the effort.

[LobselVith8]

DreamerM wrote...

Here's a really crazy thought. I know spirits and people are supposed to be seperated when the person in question dies, but what if that isn't always the case? What if Anders remains grafted to Justice even as his soul returns to the Fade? Or seperates but now he's a spirit too, stuck in the Fade with no way back?

Yeah it's all very very unlikely. But hey, in a world as full of magic and mystery as Dragon Age, it's not impossible.

I'd imagine the Rivanni seers would know, considering Genitivi's writings about the kingdom of Rivain and the millennia tradition of its seers.

DreamerM wrote...

ademska wrote...

i'm lookin at you, leliana

Oh, Leliana's been a Chantry spy since the start. It is very obvious. Did you ever believe her "vision" story? Really?

I shared Anders' feelings toward Leliana in that scene in Faith. Leliana seemed duplicitious - that she would prefer an Exalted March to mage autonomy tells me enough about her real character.

[Arquen]

Good god this thread goes a mile a minute! Now you guys are on Cassandra hmmm. It's hard to even see what she wants from Anders since she is as said so passive about his existence in the narrative.

It is also hard to tell what people actually know about the Chantry and if people even know Anders was the one to blow up the Chantry. Cassandra seems to blame Hawke for everything at first as if he/she was the one who planted the thing, put the trigger in Anders' hand and said "squeeze." It's really unclear if she wants vengeance, justification, or .. what.. a story? She obviously has a lot of respect for truth, and I'm assuming she may be one of those people who has been a blind soldier to propaganda and is just waiting for someone to open her eyes. Varric is her chance for that.

As far as Anders, I agree with CGG in that he was just a "firework." What he did is drastic, but the aftermath is the most important part of what he does and it isn't even shown really (yet).

[beckaliz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Anders (and to some extent, Fenris and Merril) serve to inform Hawke about the issue of Mages and Templars. While Anders makes more definite and active efforts to forward his cause, they're all completely ineffective until he sees a single chance for him to make a splash. He does the Chantry bomb simply because he isn't an influential man in any way by that point. He realizes that he isn't the hero, he isn't going to rally an army of public support behind him. He's not a leader of men, he's a guy who notices one time and place where a single man has the ability to do something that shakes the foundations of life in Thedas. He realizes that the only way for him, personally, to help mages is to incite an event that someone stronger and more charismatic (like Hawke or the Warden or DA3 protagonist) can use to gain power. 

Moreso than Hawke growing up in a family of apostates and moving around constantly?

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Anders (and to some extent, Fenris and Merril) serve to inform Hawke about the issue of Mages and Templars. While Anders makes more definite and active efforts to forward his cause, they're all completely ineffective until he sees a single chance for him to make a splash. He does the Chantry bomb simply because he isn't an influential man in any way by that point. He realizes that he isn't the hero, he isn't going to rally an army of public support behind him. He's not a leader of men, he's a guy who notices one time and place where a single man has the ability to do something that shakes the foundations of life in Thedas. He realizes that the only way for him, personally, to help mages is to incite an event that someone stronger and more charismatic (like Hawke or the Warden or DA3 protagonist) can use to gain power. 

Moreso than Hawke growing up in a family of apostates and moving around constantly?

i imagine she rather meant that two ways: one, they inform hawke of the issue from a standpoint other than that of fereldan flighty apostates. fenris and merrill have extremely different perspectives than hawke's family.  two, more importantly, they inform the PLAYER as hawke.  it's a narrative device.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

beckaliz wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Anders (and to some extent, Fenris and Merril) serve to inform Hawke about the issue of Mages and Templars. While Anders makes more definite and active efforts to forward his cause, they're all completely ineffective until he sees a single chance for him to make a splash. He does the Chantry bomb simply because he isn't an influential man in any way by that point. He realizes that he isn't the hero, he isn't going to rally an army of public support behind him. He's not a leader of men, he's a guy who notices one time and place where a single man has the ability to do something that shakes the foundations of life in Thedas. He realizes that the only way for him, personally, to help mages is to incite an event that someone stronger and more charismatic (like Hawke or the Warden or DA3 protagonist) can use to gain power. 

Moreso than Hawke growing up in a family of apostates and moving around constantly?

Not moreso, no. Also, this is where we get that whole "player/character hur dur" thing going on. The player has no reason to have strong feelings about this, while the character does. I actually feel this separation was badly done. I think that we should have had a chance to play though more of the actual, everyday, 'my life has sucked because of this' oppression. As is, all we see is Beth getting taken away, if that, and even that isn't played up as harshly as it could be. Then again, this was part of Bioware's effort to make the Templars seem more reasonable. If players actually had the perspective on a life of oppression and fear that they should naturally have had, far fewer would turn to the Templar cause. (Unless you RP Hawke as having resented both his father and sister his whole life.)

It's astonishing how few templar-favoring posters don't realize "Hey, if the Templars get what they want, you would literally never have been born."

Most people won't internalize Hawke's backstory. So for the benefit of those people, the NPCs color the PC's view. Also, Anders, Fenris, and Merril all have slightly different viewpoints, ones to which Hawke has probably not been exposed previously. Anders introduces the idea that mages could actually fight to change the system.

My main point is that Anders isn't effectual in freeing mages. He isn't changing the world. He's influencing the mind of one man as best he can, and then setting up an opportunity for either that Hawke to act or someone else with agency to act.