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[Evilnor]

For the codex entries on specific characters, they should totally let the voice actors for those characters read them . . . I'm totally not jonesing to hear Adam Howden again, no . . .

[ademska]

Evilnor wrote...

For the codex entries on specific characters, they should totally let the voice actors for those characters read them . . . I'm totally not jonesing to hear Adam Howden again, no . . .

"In private, though, Anders remains a tender and devoted lover...."

omg

"Prone to wild mood swings between deep melancholy and manic determination..."

omg

i can go for this.

[DreamerM]

The Codex's are a harsh lesson. Not-reading them turned out to be a quick way to make some very stupid decisions.

[Hill-Hurwitz]

Leliana... Hoboy. I've been over-analyzing everything she says lately, and taking notes like mad.

NewAndImproved!Tabris finally got to Lothering today, and based on the initial talks, I'm wondering if Leliana is playing both sides. After all, her interest is serving the will of the Maker, not necessarily the Chantry, and whether or not the Maker truly gave her visions doesn't matter - she believes what she believes.

She's the Divine's hand; what did she do to get there in those passings years since the Blight. Morover, who's to say that's where she's planning on staying. I doubt Leliana will ever be able to stop playing the Game.

*makes mental notes to go play Leliana's song now*

Modifié par Hill-Hurwitz, 15 juin 2011 - 07:08 .

[ipgd]

Hill-Hurwitz wrote...

Leliana... Hoboy. I've been over-analyzing everything she says lately, and taking notes like mad.

NewAndImproved!Tabris finally got to Lothering today, and based on the initial talks, I'm wondering if Leliana is playing both sides. After all, her interest is serving the will of the Maker, not necessarily the Chantry, and whether or not the Maker truly gave her visions doesn't matter - she believes what she believes.

She's the Divine's hand; what did she do to get there in those passings years since the Blight. Morover, who's to say that's where she's planning on staying. I doubt Leliana will ever be able to stop playing the Game.

*makes mental notes to go play Leliana's song now*

I'm not sure Leliana was actually working for the Divine while she's with the Warden. I mean, they could just kind of hand-wave it later, but the Guardian suggests she's faking her visions for a very different reason. Considering the blight occured in 9:30 and Revered Mother Dorothea was made Divine in 9:34, I'm assuming she simply called Leliana to join the Seekers then because of the personal relationship they had. I don't really get the scheming mastermind kind of vibe from Leliana but hey I could be wrong

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm not saying she was working for the Divine, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to imagine she was working Dorothea, who would later become the Divine (and who may have been planning for that eventuality). I do think that her whole "Oh, I'm putting that life behind me to go back to adventuring, because of my vision" spiel is... I don't know. It sends off bells for me. They could be entirely fake bells. I'm pretty sure a lot of why I don't trust Leliana is her actress's delivery, and I don't know whether or not that's meant to be on purpose.

Justina V is interesting in and of herself. It seems like she may not have been even a Grand Cleric at the time of her selection, merely a Revered Mother who was recommended by the previous Divine. A Revered mother of whom there was no record prior to joining the Chantry, even. They've deliberately made it seem possible that Dorothea is more than she appears, so the idea that she knew she would be Beatrice III's recommendation and was preparing for that case seems plausible to me.

Leliana doesn't seem like a mastermind. But you don't have to be a mastermind to swear allegiance to the woman who probably saved your life and gave you purpose. She could have told Leliana to go to Ferelden and keep an eye on things, without there being a huge conspiracy in place that Leliana was party to. But I can't currently bring myself to believe that Leliana wasn't at the very least taking notes on Ferelden for someone else in Origins. I'll have to pay more attention the next time I play.

To bring this subject back to Anders... I was having fun a while ago thinking of other ways to free mages. One of my favorite "long con" ideas was to have someone join the clergy as an undercover agent, then use blood magic (or a combination of blood magic and assassination) to have the current Divine "recommend" your agent for the position of the new Divine, then die. The Chantry pretty much always listens to the recommendation of the previous Divine, and then bing bang boom, you have a mage sympathetic Divine on the throne who can reform Andrasteism.

I don't think that Dorothea did anything that extreme, but I will be pleased as punch if we find out that she pulled off some high level shady dealings to go from Revered Mother with a shadowy past to new Divine with an army of sympathetic spies (including someone who can give a complete and accurate report on the activities of the Hero of Ferelden.)

[Amondra]

ElleMullineux wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Judging by the comparisons both Bethany and Carver make, Anders exists to give Hawke daddy issues.

Oh my gosh yes. And then you have the codex for Malcolm's boots The Long Trek - "Freedom's price is never cheap" just to hammer the point home. Romance the twistier version of your daddy peeps, it makes for fun times.

After reading that codex and then hearing Bethany's banter all I could think of was " If my father was still alive, he would be right there with you Anders,"

Also why do I get this crazy vibe Hawke's dad was a blood mage too? I know it doesn't make sense but I haven't been able to shake it the last few days as I play my Sassy gay Hawke for Fenris again.

[ipgd]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not saying she was working for the Divine, but it doesn't seem
unreasonable to imagine she was working Dorothea, who would later become
the Divine (and who may have been planning for that eventuality).

"Working for the [future] Divine", rather.

I do think that her whole "Oh, I'm putting that life behind me to go back to adventuring, because of my vision" spiel is... I don't know. It sends off bells for me. They could be entirely fake bells. I'm pretty sure a lot of why I don't trust Leliana is her actress's delivery, and I don't know whether or not that's meant to be on purpose.

I'm inclined to believe her, at this point, mainly because that's something the Guardian would have hinted at if it were so, rather than the "I UNDERSTAND LELIANA YOU MADE UP YOUR VISION BECAUSE YOU WANTED ATTENTION" thing he focuses on. But, like I said, that won't stop them from "changing" it if they want to later.

I'm sure she does feel some sort of loyalty to Dorothea, but my working theory at the moment is that they only came back into cahoots after the Blight.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I definitely have to replay that bit in Origins, since I pretty much quickly forgot everything Leliana-related. I feel like I had some other theory about the vision itself, but can't for the life of me remember it.

I think there was some level of cahoots, or implied future cahoots. Even if it was just "hey, if I ever... say... become Divine or something, I'm going to give you a call. Also, you know what's nice this time of year? Ferelden." I guess I'm saying that Leliana might have not realized she was being groomed for a thing she was being groomed for.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 juin 2011 - 09:29 .

[BlueMew]

Uh... what? Leliana prefers an Exalted March (ew) to mage freedom? I didn't catch *that*

[Amondra]

BlueMew wrote...

Uh... what? Leliana prefers an Exalted March (ew) to mage freedom? I didn't catch *that*

The only thing that bothers me on the whole thing, was how she disliked the Chantry, because she didn't agree with how it taught people about the Maker and yet here is she working for the Divine herself, did they do her whole personality while we weren't looking?

[Giggles_Manically]

In my canon Origins game I am not surprised she is working for the Divine now.

I:
A) Hardened her
Romanced her with my city elf
C) Then went US on her.

So it makes sense to me.

Really though what I took from her cameo was that the divine was more afraid of Kirkwall well erupting into a giant conflict and taking many lives with them and its results.

From what Cassandra says the war has taken many lives as well.

[kromify]

the maker loves us all and is present in the wind, waves and sunlight. he is not truly gone forever. unless you happen to be a mage. then you're screwed

[kromify]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Really though what I took from her cameo was that the divine was more afraid of Kirkwall well erupting into a giant conflict and taking many lives with them and its results.

From what Cassandra says the war has taken many lives as well.

war does that... 

[Giggles_Manically]

Especially when one side can make things explode by looking at things and thinking about it.

Damn.
Every time I think about that I think of River's line in Firefly:
Also.... I can kill you with my mind.

[kromify]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Especially when one side can make things explode by looking at things and thinking about it.

Damn.
Every time I think about that I think of River's line in Firefly:
Also.... I can kill you with my mind.

all the templars need is a single ninja to fight back...  

[Giggles_Manically]

Its funny then that my next Hawke I am playing is this guy pretty much:


My first full Templar supporting Hawke.

[Wulfram]

Amondra wrote...

BlueMew wrote...

Uh... what? Leliana prefers an Exalted March (ew) to mage freedom? I didn't catch *that*

The only thing that bothers me on the whole thing, was how she disliked the Chantry, because she didn't agree with how it taught people about the Maker and yet here is she working for the Divine herself, did they do her whole personality while we weren't looking?

Leliana doesn't agree with it on everything, but she always loved the Chantry.  It took her in when she was at her most desperate and gave her the chance to find a new life.

[highcastle]

BlueMew wrote...

Uh... what? Leliana prefers an Exalted March (ew) to mage freedom? I didn't catch *that*

It comes out during Seb's Act 3 personal quest. She also leaked word of her arrival to militant mage groups to see if they'd take the bait. They did, she curbstomped them, and then wants to use that as justification for the Exalted March. Um...right.

Honestly, though, I wasn't a big fan of Leliana back in DAO. She came across preachy even then. Although at least her particular brand of religious fervor seemed to be slightly more independently minded. She was looked down upon by the Lothering chantry for some of her beliefs, anyway. Perhaps the Divine agreed with her (or told her she did, anyway)? Either way, it looks like Leliana's found that balance between being a spy and being a sister that she always wanted.

I still don't like her.

[AndreaDraco]

beckaliz wrote...

Wow! This is really, really good!

[highcastle]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Especially when one side can make things explode by looking at things and thinking about it.

Hardly makes a difference if the final battle is to judge. The mages are just pathetic. They are so horribly inept at combat it makes my insides hurt just to watch how easily the templars cut through them, as if they were made out of wet paper.

Oy.

This is just my own little tinfoil hat theory, but I think the reason why the mages were cut down so easily in the final battle was because they were children. And Varric (i.e. the devs) didn't want to dwell on that part. Absolutely no evidence to back it up, except for the fact that we don't really see any kids in the Gallows and we know they're there.

[LobselVith8]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

Moreso than Hawke growing up in a family of apostates and moving around constantly?

Not moreso, no. Also, this is where we get that whole "player/character hur dur" thing going on. The player has no reason to have strong feelings about this, while the character does. I actually feel this separation was badly done. I think that we should have had a chance to play though more of the actual, everyday, 'my life has sucked because of this' oppression.

It's unfortunate that we get more of an apostate POV with Bethany as Hawke's sister than we do from an apostate Hawke. There's a real disconnect between Hawke being an illegal mage and how the people and story react to this fact.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

As is, all we see is Beth getting taken away, if that, and even that isn't played up as harshly as it could be. Then again, this was part of Bioware's effort to make the Templars seem more reasonable. If players actually had the perspective on a life of oppression and fear that they should naturally have had, far fewer would turn to the Templar cause. (Unless you RP Hawke as having resented both his father and sister his whole life.)

It's astonishing how few templar-favoring posters don't realize "Hey, if the Templars get what they want, you would literally never have been born."

Nothing the templars did really affected Hawke. He's never on the run from them as an apostate, he never has to worry about them capturing Anders or Merrill. There's a disconnect. I wonder how many templar-favoring posters there would be if it was Bethany getting nighty visits from Kerras and the other templars instead of Alain. The creators went out of there way to show how some can abuse magic, but they didn't do the same to show how bad the Chantry controlled Circles and its templars can be, and people easily write off what Anders says from his own experience because it's merely his words conveying how bad it can be.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Most people won't internalize Hawke's backstory. So for the benefit of those people, the NPCs color the PC's view. Also, Anders, Fenris, and Merril all have slightly different viewpoints, ones to which Hawke has probably not been exposed previously. Anders introduces the idea that mages could actually fight to change the system.

My main point is that Anders isn't effectual in freeing mages. He isn't changing the world. He's influencing the mind of one man as best he can, and then setting up an opportunity for either that Hawke to act or someone else with agency to act.

That's an interesting perspective to take on Anders' relationship to Hawke.