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[kromify]

ElleMullineux wrote...

kromify wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Oh bloody hell, how have I ended up on this side of the discussion?

it's always good to change sides in a debate. be your own devils advocate!

I usually do though, arguing from a single viewpoint is too boring. Just didn't expect to be pushing a pro-ish templar pov.

I blame it on finally realising this morning that non-mage mage babies taken from the circle mages are probably raised to become templars. I now just feel sorry for a lot of them.

sounds like thedas's first sitcom

*posh announcing voice*
"a baby, taken from his parents in the circle tower, was adopted by the chantry. now, 18 years later, that baby is... A Templar *drumroll*
in this episode; our favourite templar arrives at his latest assignment. will he discover the identity of his parents? stay tuned to [Templar Watch] to find out!"

[insert better suggestions here]

Modifié par kromify, 15 juin 2011 - 02:50 .

[Reflection Muse]

Sialater wrote...

Would it help that I'm a Cullen fangirl, too?

Good morning, everyone! It's so nice to wake up and have great discussion to read over while enjoying my morning coffee.

Not to totally derail the discussion, but does anyone think we'll see Cullen play a fairly large role in a DA II expansion or DA III? I got the strong impression that was hinted at and possibly even set up to happen.

Modifié par Reflection Muse, 15 juin 2011 - 02:54 .

[kromify]

Reflection Muse wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Would it help that I'm a Cullen fangirl, too?

Good morning, everyone! It's so nice to wake up and have great discussion to read over while enjoying my morning coffee.

Not to totally derail the discussion, but does anyone think we'll see Cullen play a fairly large role in a DA II expansion or DA III? I got the strong impression that was hinted at and possibly even set up to happen.

and many people have been demanding it...  

[andrastepreserveme]

kromify wrote...

and many people have been demanding it...  

Demands aren't always met. Ask that guy Gaider pwned.

[kromify]

mandamcmoo wrote...

kromify wrote...

and many people have been demanding it...  

Demands aren't always met. Ask that guy Gaider pwned.

demanding cullen-for-all isn't quite the same as demanding purely heterosexual female options because there's more heterosexual guys. just sayin'.

Modifié par kromify, 15 juin 2011 - 03:12 .

[Frishmet]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...



Nothing the templars did really affected Hawke. He's never on the run from them as an apostate, he never has to worry about them capturing Anders or Merrill. There's a disconnect. I wonder how many templar-favoring posters there would be if it was Bethany getting nighty visits from Kerras and the other templars instead of Alain. The creators went out of there way to show how some can abuse magic, but they didn't do the same to show how bad the Chantry controlled Circles and its templars can be, and people easily write off what Anders says from his own experience because it's merely his words conveying how bad it can be.

When Bethany was taken to the Circle, I actually expected that to happen. Or be made Tranquil. I mean, I'm glad she didn't, but it is annoying that the only insight she offers is basically "oh, it's fine but not perfect", which does remarkably little to show what a life in perpetual oppression and fear with no hope of escaping is actually like. I've read so many people writing the mages' suffering off as merely whining.

You do have to allow for the fact though that there are mages who are happier in the circles. They've got a stable enviroment, they're surrounded by people with similiar experiences to them. And whilst the systematic abuses of mages as a whole (re freedoms and rights etc) exists - not every individual mage will be physically or emotionally abused by their captors.

Just as there are good templars and there are valid reasons for them taking the actions they do according to their world view. We ought to be careful of painting mages = always good/ templars = always bad.

If you grow up in a prison like environment and don't have anything else to compare it too, I'm sure a lot of people will make the best of things and try to be as content as they can be. Also, you see the example of Orana being happy as a slave. It's all she's ever known and freedom is a scary thing for her. Lia is even sympathetic to Kelder. Is it ok to inprison, or enslave, or abuse people if they are ok with it because they don't know any better?

[LobselVith8]

ElleMullineux wrote...

You do have to allow for the fact though that there are mages who are happier in the circles. They've got a stable enviroment, they're surrounded by people with similiar experiences to them. And whilst the systematic abuses of mages as a whole (re freedoms and rights etc) exists - not every individual mage will be physically or emotionally abused by their captors.

If the story goes out of its way to show me that some mages can abuse their abilities, I expect to see the other side of the coin - not to have it blatantly ignored. I see too often people claiming that Anders is outright lying about the abuses in the Circle of Magi, and it happens because the story never shows us how bad it can be for mages living in the Circles of Magi while time and again, we see mage antagonists.

ElleMullineux wrote...

Just as there are good templars and there are valid reasons for them taking the actions they do according to their world view. We ought to be careful of painting mages = always good/ templars = always bad.

There was Ser Thrask, but I'm addressing the lack of any real mage perspective in a story that's supposed to deal with the dichotomy between mages and templars.

[Frishmet]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...



As for the rest, it's just a comment to the world at large, not you directly.  I've been seeing a lot of feedback that wants to paint the templars as big evil boogie men and women, which isn't the case. For the most part they are trying to do the jobs they were raised to do, and believe in what they are doing. I just disagree with them

Not to mention that they are all forced into drug addiction. A drug that can cause some severe withdrawal effects if they try to quit and serious mental deterioration if they continue to take it. God, Carver, the Order is no place for a little brother. Why would you join it willingly?

Oh I agree. Many of them are victims of the system as well. Particularly regarding their drug addiction.

[ReiSilver]

since someone bought up DAA Anders vs DA2 Anders... I just remembered how Ander's reaction to dealing with people in DAA usually involved a fair amount of teasing, like him to not liking Oghren resulted in him doing unflattering impression of him.
...guys...
GUYS

Imagine Greg Ellis/Anders doing a Gideon Emery/Fenris impersonation.
Why did this not happen!?! *goes to cry in a corner*

[LobselVith8]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Of course. Finn seemed happy in the Circle, and so did Wynne. I simply meant, if the abuses happen to characters who people aren't emotionally connected to, people won't really care that much.

Finn seemed happy, but Wynne concedes to the mage protagonist of Origins that the Circle of Ferelden is a "prison" and an "oppressive place," even going as far as to state that she believes The Warden can change that it's an oppressive place if he goes back to the Circle (after the Fifth Blight), given some time. Even a moderate like Irving will profusely thank the Hero of Ferleden for freeing the mages from their "shackles" if the Magi boon is requested.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I'm not sure where you get the rest from. I never implied all templars are bad. Thrask was a good templar and I was furious at losing him.

Thrask was indeed a good templar who we lost to an incredibly unnecessary and stupid quest that makes no sense for a protagonist who isn't anti-mage, and we lost him to a cardboard cutout villain like Grace.

[Frishmet]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Of course. Finn seemed happy in the Circle, and so did Wynne. I simply meant, if the abuses happen to characters who people aren't emotionally connected to, people won't really care that much.

Finn seemed happy, but Wynne concedes to the mage protagonist of Origins that the Circle of Ferelden is a "prison" and an "oppressive place," even going as far as to state that she believes The Warden can change that it's an oppressive place if he goes back to the Circle (after the Fifth Blight), given some time. Even a moderate like Irving will profusely thank the Hero of Ferleden for freeing the mages from their "shackles" if the Magi boon is requested.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I'm not sure where you get the rest from. I never implied all templars are bad. Thrask was a good templar and I was furious at losing him.

Thrask was indeed a good templar who we lost to an incredibly unnecessary and stupid quest that makes no sense for a protagonist who isn't anti-mage, and we lost him to a cardboard cutout villain like Grace.

Yes that was one of the most frustrating moments of the game. To have someone like Thrask and a real opportunity to work things out in a reasonable way dangled in front of you and then yanked away.  It was a cruel tease.

[Reflection Muse]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Thrask was indeed a good templar who we lost to an incredibly unnecessary and stupid quest that makes no sense for a protagonist who isn't anti-mage, and we lost him to a cardboard cutout villain like Grace.

Agreed. The way that whole situation played out, regardless of your choices or Hawke history, really frustrated me.

[LobselVith8]

ElleMullineux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the story goes out of its way to show me that some mages can abuse their abilities, I expect to see the other side of the coin - not to have it blatantly ignored. I see too often people claiming that Anders is outright lying about the abuses in the Circle of Magi, and it happens because the story never shows us how bad it can be for mages living in the Circles of Magi while time and again, we see mage antagonists.

Personally I thought the implication of Ser Alrick's actions were pretty blatant.

I've read pro-templar fans argue against Alrik's implications to Ella, and even argue that Karl should have been made tranquil because we know nothing about him, despite the letter we can read in "Tranquility." There is an uneven representation of mage antagonists in comparison to templar antagonists.

ElleMullineux wrote...

As was the ambient banter in the gallows from the mages there. Unless you're looking to witness actual abuses I don't know how much farther they could have gone.

A player has to actively search for the dialogue from the Circle mages, and even that isn't as in your face as the insane criminal mages we're forced to deal with in Kirkwall. Even Cullen's comments that mages can't be treated like people and are weapons are options you have to scroll through, and the same isn't true for antagonists like Quentin.

ElleMullineux wrote...

In DAO you had the interactions with Jowan and the apprentice priestess girl (name fail), it seemed clear enough to me that Jowan was forced into escaping and blood magic because they weren't going to let him take his harrowing and he grew increasingly desperate. Perhaps I just see more there than you do?

I'm addressing the overall storyline and the dichotomy of mages and templars specifically in DA2, not what we see from the Circle of Ferelden (including Jowan and Lily) in DA:O.

ElleMullineux wrote...

As I've said before I think having your sibling abused would have been very crass and forced many people's Hawkes into a reactionary anti-templar position, rather than allowing the Templar ending to stand or fall on it's own merit. 

As opposed to the pro-templar position that a mage killing your mother does?

ElleMullineux wrote...

I don't think the abuses were ignored. And if other people want to ignore reams of dialogue as Anders lying... well... surely that's their choice?

If we don't see the other side of the coin the same way we see it with the mage antagonists, there's not an equal representation given.

[andrastepreserveme]

kromify wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

kromify wrote...

and many people have been demanding it...  

Demands aren't always met. Ask that guy Gaider pwned.

demanding cullen-for-all isn't quite the same as demanding purely heterosexual female options because there's more heterosexual guys. just sayin'.

LOL I didn't mean it like that. I'm just saying we shouldn't expect it because people want it!

[YamiSnuffles]

ElleMullineux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the story goes out of its way to show me that some mages can abuse their abilities, I expect to see the other side of the coin - not to have it blatantly ignored. I see too often people claiming that Anders is outright lying about the abuses in the Circle of Magi, and it happens because the story never shows us how bad it can be for mages living in the Circles of Magi while time and again, we see mage antagonists.

Personally I thought the implication of Ser Alrick's actions were pretty blatant. As was the ambient banter in the gallows from the mages there. Unless you're looking to witness actual abuses I don't know how much farther they could have gone.
In DAO you had the interactions with Jowan and the apprentice priestess girl (name fail), it seemed clear enough to me that Jowan was forced into escaping and blood magic because they weren't going to let him take his harrowing and he grew increasingly desperate. Perhaps I just see more there than you do?
As I've said before I think having your sibling abused would have been very crass and forced many people's Hawkes into a reactionary anti-templar position, rather than allowing the Templar ending to stand or fall on it's own merit. 
I don't think the abuses were ignored. And if other people want to ignore reams of dialogue as Anders lying... well... surely that's their choice?

Plus, I believe Bethany even mentions Alrick being a creep in her letter to Hawke if she goes to the Circle. She mentions that she's going to do her best to avoid him. This, I think, stands as testimony from someone pretty reliable. Had Hawke, Anders, and co not taken the guy out, who's to say what might have happened to Beth? So there does seem to be plenty of evidence that at least Alrick is a horrible person, let alone a horrible Templar. People who ignore all the evidence against him probably wouldn't be convinced otherwise unless you saw him in the middle of raping a mage or something that would never make it into the game.

Anders might have been exaggerating or misinterpreting the scope of some things (like the Tranquil Solution) but as Elle said, players are given plenty of evidence that abuses do happen and life can be pretty wretched in the Circle. I don't think BW needed to show us a girl being raped or anything that direct. We saw a mage who was forced to be Tranquil and another girl about to be (amongst other things). Whether players pay attention to that or not is up to them. It's not much different from people believing the Chantry is made completely of sunshine and grandmotherly old ladies despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

That all being said, I do agree that there should perhaps be something of similar impact to what happens to Hawke's mother. Especially since some players would never have Bethany in game, or not in the Circle.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 15 juin 2011 - 04:03 .

[andrastepreserveme]

Pyow!

[Frishmet]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the story goes out of its way to show me that some mages can abuse their abilities, I expect to see the other side of the coin - not to have it blatantly ignored. I see too often people claiming that Anders is outright lying about the abuses in the Circle of Magi, and it happens because the story never shows us how bad it can be for mages living in the Circles of Magi while time and again, we see mage antagonists.

Personally I thought the implication of Ser Alrick's actions were pretty blatant. As was the ambient banter in the gallows from the mages there. Unless you're looking to witness actual abuses I don't know how much farther they could have gone.
In DAO you had the interactions with Jowan and the apprentice priestess girl (name fail), it seemed clear enough to me that Jowan was forced into escaping and blood magic because they weren't going to let him take his harrowing and he grew increasingly desperate. Perhaps I just see more there than you do?
As I've said before I think having your sibling abused would have been very crass and forced many people's Hawkes into a reactionary anti-templar position, rather than allowing the Templar ending to stand or fall on it's own merit. 
I don't think the abuses were ignored. And if other people want to ignore reams of dialogue as Anders lying... well... surely that's their choice?

Plus, I believe Bethany even mentions Alrick being a creep in her letter to Hawke if she goes to the Circle. She mentions that she's going to do her best to avoid him. This, I think, stands as testimony from someone pretty reliable. Had Hawke, Anders, and co not taken the guy out, who's to say what might have happened to Beth? So there does seem to be plenty of evidence that at least Alrick is a horrible person, let alone a horrible Templar. People who ignore all the evidence against him probably wouldn't be convinced otherwise unless you saw him in the middle of raping a mage or something that would never make it into the game.

Anders might have been exaggerating or misinterpreting the scope of some things (like the Tranquil Solution) but as Elle said, players are given plenty of evidence that abuses do happen and life can be pretty wretched in the Circle. I don't think BW needed to show us a girl being raped or anything that direct. We saw a mage who was forced to be Tranquil and another girl about to be (amongst other things). Whether players pay attention to that or not is up to them. It's not much different from people believing the Chantry is made completely of sunshine and grandmotherly old ladies despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

That all being said, I do agree that there should perhaps be something of similar impact to what happens to Hawke's mother. Especially since some players would never have Bethany in game, or not in the Circle.

I think there are plenty of examples of bad mages and templars both. Where I see a little more discrepency is I didn't see a lot of examples of decent mages where I saw several examples of reasonable templars.  Of course the situation didn't really lend itself to being able to show reasonable well adjusted mages. They were either desperate victims or evil magisters or resolutionists/blood mages.  It's not like you could go visit the free mage community hanging just outside Kirkwall.  You do see the Dailish Keeper but she is quite exotic and harder to identiy with.

[kromify]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Personally I thought the implication of Ser Alrick's actions were pretty blatant. As was the ambient banter in the gallows from the mages there. Unless you're looking to witness actual abuses I don't know how much farther they could have gone.
In DAO you had the interactions with Jowan and the apprentice priestess girl (name fail), it seemed clear enough to me that Jowan was forced into escaping and blood magic because they weren't going to let him take his harrowing and he grew increasingly desperate. Perhaps I just see more there than you do?
As I've said before I think having your sibling abused would have been very crass and forced many people's Hawkes into a reactionary anti-templar position, rather than allowing the Templar ending to stand or fall on it's own merit. 
I don't think the abuses were ignored. And if other people want to ignore reams of dialogue as Anders lying... well... surely that's their choice?

i got the impression that jowan had been dabbling in blood magic for a short while. the ferelden circle isn't like kirkwall's; they might not have thought he was ready for a harrowing but that shouldn't automatically mean he gets tranq'd. instead he could have remained an apprentice for a while longer or taken the harrowing anyway with extra templars on watch. there must be a protocol - tranquiling mages is (supposed) to be a last resort.


i think bioware overindulged on the evil mage stuff because most people who play would otherwise support the mages automatically. free living is hardwired into western culture. it takes terrorism to shift the balance into blind rage and oppression.

circles = guantanamo?  

[andrastepreserveme]

WHOOSH!

[andrastepreserveme]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Drive-by Anders?

I like you

Picspam ftw!