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[YamiSnuffles]

Because someone mentioned Anders as Batman whilst I was away a few days ago...


Batmanders! He's certainly no Turian Batman, but he does try.

[Reflection Muse]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Because someone mentioned Anders as Batman whilst I was away a few days ago...


Batmanders! He's certainly no Turian Batman, but he does try.

Lol, brilliant! You almost made me spray coffee on my monitor.

[SurelyForth]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Actually, Jowan turned to blood magic because he felt inferiour to his friend, the Mage!Warden, who apparently was among the most talented mages of his/her generation. Maybe even THE most talented. A pretty big shadow to be stuck in.

Which makes me hate him even more, to be honest (and I waver on Jowan). I could understand turning to blood magic as a last resort, if you know that you're going to be made Tranquil because they think you're weak or already into blood magic. It seems like once they've stuck you on the train to Tranquility it's a one way ride. But to do something so dangerous because you want to be a better mage just like your buddy Amell/Surana, and then drag them down with you when your horrible decision results in the inevitable and widely known punishment, is not sympathetic to me. It's absurd and selfish.

(and now I have a horrible image of Jowan as Sideshow Bob and Finn as Snake in this scene and it makes NO SENSE)

Anyway, off topic. Sorry.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

beckaliz wrote...

 This time around I actually gave Correm Hawke, warrior, the Templar specialization. I considered the fact of the lyrium addiction buuuut... since the devs ignore that, so can I.  I like the Silence ability. It fits in with roleplay with him, too, since he grows to distrust the Kirkwall mages specifically.

My cannon Hawke is a Templar, class-wise. To some extent this is how I justify her not coming on stronger early on; she knows that her skillset makes Anders nervous and doesn't want to do anything that would make her seem like a 'bad templar'. In my mind, she decided to start the training to divert suspicion from her family even more, and so she'd know more about the tactics of the enemy: the limitations of their abilities, what can you expect less experienced Templars to be capable of, etc. What bothers me is that in DA:O we at least got the "Alistair was half-trained to be a Templar but escaped so now can teach other people" explanation as to how our PC learned Templar-ing. The fact that it's less explicitly laid out in DA2 makes me wonder how difficult to learn and secret Templar abilities are at this point. (I know, gameplay/story. Still!)

As for the Lyrium thing... my theory is that Templars who are fairly advanced in their training are addicted to Lyrium like I'm addicted to coffee: if they don't get a lyrium potion in the morning every day they get a bit cranky, and probably don't feel right the rest of the day, but they're not going to die or go crazy. When they take their vows, they're given the "good stuff," which is essentially the lyrium version of crack cocaine. This more refined Lyrium is required for higher level magic resistance, and probably grants access to some abilities that we don't know about. It's also much more addictive, naturally.

[Amondra]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Because someone mentioned Anders as Batman whilst I was away a few days ago...


Batmanders! He's certainly no Turian Batman, but he does try.

YES! My dreams are complete!

[BlueMew]

Hmm, I also cannot help but mention the difference between the Fereldan Circle and that in Kirkwall. Not that I'm defending one group having absolute power over the other, absolutely not. I hate it with a burning passion.

But still. I get the feeling Greagoir, for all his obvious... templarness wouldn't allow the things Meredith seems to not only allow but actively endorse. Using the Rite of Tranquility as a punishment for 'disobedience'? Giving 40 lashes to people just for talking? Hello?

[Mekarah]

I completely agree re: Ferelden vs. Kirkwall. I have a feeling our Amell/Surana wardens would be walking around tranquil in the Gallows if they had pulled the kind of crap that they did in the Ferelden Circle, regardless of Duncan's influence.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

BlueMew wrote...

highcastle wrote...
Uh... what? Leliana prefers an Exalted March (ew) to mage freedom? I didn't catch *that*

It comes out during Seb's Act 3 personal quest. She also leaked word of her arrival to militant mage groups to see if they'd take the bait. They did, she curbstomped them, and then wants to use that as justification for the Exalted March. Um...right.

Honestly, though, I wasn't a big fan of Leliana back in DAO. She came across preachy even then. Although at least her particular brand of religious fervor seemed to be slightly more independently minded. She was looked down upon by the Lothering chantry for some of her beliefs, anyway. Perhaps the Divine agreed with her (or told her she did, anyway)? Either way, it looks like Leliana's found that balance between being a spy and being a sister that she always wanted.

I still don't like her.

I lost patience with her when she got all pissed when I gave those holy symbols to the Templars in Redcliff. In my mind, we were just giving them symbols that would give them confidence, like painting a pretty lady on the side of your bomber. But Leliana was all like "No! Even if you don't explicitly tell them these have magical powers, they'll believe it, and that is a LIE!" I was like "Lady, haven't you ever heard of the placebo effect?"

You preach that the Maker does, in some way, watch over and guide human affairs, but if I give some scared dudes holy symbols so they believe it too, I'm being deceptive? Ugh, whatever. I was trying to give you a chance to be likeable by taking you with me on this mission of mercy; I knew I should have brought the Quinari instead. He's better company.

I feel like I'm supposed to like her: "Oooh, ninja nun spy with a sexy accent," and Maker knows I try, but there's just something there I don't get.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 juin 2011 - 05:01 .

[kromify]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Aaand... I can't explain why? I still like him in spite of it. But there you have it.

he's an idiot; but a redeemable one. i usually tell him to scarper - but then i don't get to kill isolde.  <_<

[SurelyForth]

BlueMew wrote...

Hmm, I also cannot help but mention the difference between the Fereldan Circle and that in Kirkwall. Not that I'm defending one group having absolute power over the other, absolutely not. I hate it with a burning passion.

But still. I get the feeling Greagoir, for all his obvious... templarness wouldn't allow the things Meredith seems to not only allow but actively endorse. Using the Rite of Tranquility as a punishment for 'disobedience'? Giving 40 lashes to people just for talking? Hello?

Greagoir struck me as someone who honestly believed he was protecting mages as much as he was protecting those outside the Circle. Yes, he's very much in line with the Chantry's views, but he's compassionate and seems to view the Tower as a community/home and not just a prison.

And can you imagine Meredith letting any of her mages escape seven times? I can't even imagine her giving Jowan enough time to know he was going to be Tranquil'd, much less to plan an escape. 

[kromify]

SurelyForth wrote...

BlueMew wrote...

Hmm, I also cannot help but mention the difference between the Fereldan Circle and that in Kirkwall. Not that I'm defending one group having absolute power over the other, absolutely not. I hate it with a burning passion.

But still. I get the feeling Greagoir, for all his obvious... templarness wouldn't allow the things Meredith seems to not only allow but actively endorse. Using the Rite of Tranquility as a punishment for 'disobedience'? Giving 40 lashes to people just for talking? Hello?

Greagoir struck me as someone who honestly believed he was protecting mages as much as he was protecting those outside the Circle. Yes, he's very much in line with the Chantry's views, but he's compassionate and seems to view the Tower as a community/home and not just a prison.

And can you imagine Meredith letting any of her mages escape seven times? I can't even imagine her giving Jowan enough time to know he was going to be Tranquil'd, much less to plan an escape. 

gregoir has grown on me. irving is such a s*** for wanting to implicate lily because she happens to be part of the chantry. way to remove mage-friendly preists, first enchanter.  <_<

if meredith was irving even finn would be lobotomized.  

[beckaliz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

As for the Lyrium thing... my theory is that Templars who are fairly advanced in their training are addicted to Lyrium like I'm addicted to coffee: if they don't get a lyrium potion in the morning every day they get a bit cranky, and probably don't feel right the rest of the day, but they're not going to die or go crazy. When they take their vows, they're given the "good stuff," which is essentially the lyrium version of crack cocaine. This more refined Lyrium is required for higher level magic resistance, and probably grants access to some abilities that we don't know about. It's also much more addictive, naturally. 

Reviewing the Templar specialty from DA:O (http://dragonage.wik...emplar_(Origins)]Wiki[/url], it has all those abilities and Alistair doesn't actually take any lyrium. So I concur, it's only for the advanced Templars. That takes care of having to worry about a Hawke addicted to lyrium. lol.

[SurelyForth]

Yeah, I felt horrible for Lily. She gets so hosed in that scenario, even moreso than Amell/Surana.

It took me a couple of playthroughs to get the point where my Amells weren't flaming Irving fangirls. Now I very much dislike him (and, no, that's not Anders' influence, although trying to figure out why Anders would hate Irving so much did lead me to a few legit reasons).

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

BlueMew wrote...

Hmm, I also cannot help but mention the difference between the Fereldan Circle and that in Kirkwall. Not that I'm defending one group having absolute power over the other, absolutely not. I hate it with a burning passion.

But still. I get the feeling Greagoir, for all his obvious... templarness wouldn't allow the things Meredith seems to not only allow but actively endorse. Using the Rite of Tranquility as a punishment for 'disobedience'? Giving 40 lashes to people just for talking? Hello?

Yeah, so do I. Greagoir was a hard-ass, but he wouldn't have stood for that crap. Meredith has given me a whole new appreciation for him. Which is kind of sad.

There were a lot of generally OK Templars around in DA:O. Guys who just seemed to honestly be more focused on being the local police force than taking in apostates, seeing as I had Morrigan in my party most of the time (gameplay/story I know). I do think they skimped on the whole "the Chantry is seen actively providing valuable services to the community" angle in DA2, but a lot of subtletly doesn't seem to happen in Kirkwall. There were many times in DA:O where I met some outside-the-tower Templar and felt bad for them, or liked them.

For me the point isn't "Every Templar is Evil," and when Vengeance starts talking that way I get a little annoyed. The point is that no matter how good 90% of Templars are, as long as the mages have absolutely no recourse when they're abused other than to report the abuse to other Chantry members, there are going to occasionally be horrific abuses that aren't dealt with. Also most of the anti-mage rules are arbitrary and awful, no matter how humane you are about enforcing them: they are essentially not allowed to marry (even if we get hints that this isn't an ironclad rule, we also see no exceptions), they aren't allowed to visit family or have family visit them under most circumstances, and it does seem  exceedingly difficult to earn the right to get posts outside the tower. We hear that it's possible, but the only times we see it are during military engagements... we don't meet any circle mages who are making a nice little life for themselves as the town healer somewhere, or anything like that.

I understand the philosophy of the Templars. I understand that a lot of them are probably decently nice people. But the system in which they operate is so messed up that it cannot stand as it is... and it shows no sign of changing for the better without some dramatic action.

[SurelyForth]

Actually, isn't Sweeney in the Circle Tower (the practically blind dude in the mage origin) married with children? He was actually allowed to leave the Circle and return.

And Wilhelm was married, although he was also outside of the Circle for most of his magehood.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 15 juin 2011 - 05:29 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

SurelyForth wrote...

Actually, isn't Sweeney in the Circle Tower (the practically blind dude in the mage origin) married with children? He was actually allowed to leave the Circle and return.

And Wilhelm was married, although he was also outside of the Circle for most of his magehood.

Hmm, I'd forgotten about those (or rather, I'd forgotten that Wilhelm was still an active member of the circle). Perhaps it's less rare than I thought, but it's still not something we see very often.

It also makes me wonder how one actually earns the right to live outside the circle. There's so much information we don't have.

[SurelyForth]

In Ferelden, I was under the impression that it was a reward for good behavior and/or a desirable skillset. Wynne could, seemingly, come and go pretty much as she pleased, and then Wilhelm was allowed on his expeditions because of his connections to the Guerrins and his role in the rebellion. Oh! And Ines the botanist, too...which I'd attribute to being a scholar in her field. So maybe increased autonomy for mages is a bit like getting tenure?

But, that aside, it's probably up to the discretion of the Knight-Commander and the Grand Cleric above each Circle. Orsino seemed to have some autonomy, and was able to bring mages out with him to fight the qunari, so it's possible Meredith allows something like that to go on in the Gallows, although I imagine it's much more restrictive.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 15 juin 2011 - 05:48 .

[kromify]

SurelyForth wrote...

In Ferelden, I was under the impression that it was a reward for good behavior and/or a desirable skillset. Wynne could, seemingly, come and go pretty much as she pleased, and then Wilhelm was allowed on his expeditions because of his connections to the Guerrins and his role in the rebellion. Oh! And Ines the botanist, too...which I'd attribute to being a scholar in her field. So maybe increased autonomy for mages is a bit like getting tenure?

But, that aside, it's probably up to the discretion of the Knight-Commander and the Grand Cleric above each Circle. Orsino seemed to have some autonomy, and was able to bring mages out with him to fight the qunari, so it's possible Meredith allows something like that to go on in the Gallows, although I imagine it's much more restrictive.

but wynne waltzes off to tevinter! they must really be up her ass if they allow a mage to go to the land of the black divine!

[Ryzaki]

Well I always loved hardened Leliana so the new one makes me squee.

I might set her up with my HN now.

[SurelyForth]

Ryzaki wrote...

Well I always loved hardened Leliana so the new one makes me squee.

I might set her up with my HN now.

I love hardened Leliana, too, which is why her appearance in DA2 annoys me. 

And I feel sorta bad for poor Lucille Amell, who is a pro-mage Andrastian who worships Leliana. She must be getting so many mixed signals...

[DreamerM]

kromify wrote...

but wynne waltzes off to tevinter! they must really be up her ass if they allow a mage to go to the land of the black divine!

She's Wynne. She's like a mage Chuck Norris.