57020 réponses à ce sujet

[highcastle]

DreamerM wrote...

Psychologically speaking, you may have a point; Justice gave Anders some backbone and determination. But another central theme of Dragon Age is cost vs. gain: doing something bad now for a good outcome later. And I, personally, don't see why you need to put a Demon in a character simply to give them a moral awakening and a political cause. Plenty of normal humans on our dull real planet Earth don't need demons to slave all night for political causes and help the needy. The Writers at Bioware are too smart to be genuinely unable to think of a way for Anders to have a political awakening OTHER then becoming possessed. Having Anders's political backbone be a side-effect of a demonic possession is kind of a quick way to make his beliefs meaningless, since there's always that wonder about whether they are really his or if he's just repeating what the voices are telling him again.

Plus, they gloss over the main reason Abominations are generally considered Bad Things and why there exists an army basically dedicated to fighting and containing them: Abominations are supposed to be POWERFUL. That's why mages pushed to the limit run to Demons and Spirits: they are hoping the power boost will save them.

We never got a sense of Justice's power, except in Jennifer Halper's story. And if people have a tendency to demonize Justice it's also because at no point in DA:2 are we actually given a chance to connect with Justice as a character, or even as an aspect to a character. And if Justice is barely present, then Vengence is a rumor, he's a non-entity, we don't ever see him and we wonder why Anders is making such a fuss about it. That's where the Whiney!Anders complaints come from.

On the power issue first: I thought both Tranquility and Justice nicely demonstrated Justice's strength. He cuts through those templars pretty easily, and he's pulling Anders' strings the whole time. You just have to keep in mind the limitations of the game engine and use your imagination a bit. That's gameplay and story segregation, and the suspension of disbelief it entails is paramount to fully appreciating this or any game.

Now, it's not that Justice isn't present. He is. But Anders is purposefully vague as to just how entwined versus seperate the two of them are. We clearly see Justice in the Fade and at several key parts of the game. We know he's not fully integrated in Anders' mind, though Anders seems to imply on normal occasions, he feels Justice's thoughts as his own. That's why he's making such a fuss about it: he can't trust any thought in his head.

So on the friendship path, you're basically telling him this is alright. Even the thoughts he's not sure originate from within him are okay to have. On the rivalry path, you're telling him the opposite: not to trust a damn thing going through his mind. And that's why the devs utilized Justice instead of coming up with another reason. For one thing, it functions as a metaphor for mental illness. Do you tell Anders to listen to the voices in his head, or to deny him? This complicates an already gray issue because at least from where I'm standing, the pro-mage/pro-Justice side has the moral high ground. So you're basically compromising Anders' individuality by encouraging him to merge deeper with Justice. This is ironic for someone with a deep sense of personal freedom.

The other reason for utilizing Justice and not some other force is to present us with a case of an abomination that's not just a slavering fiend for power. Thedas is not Earth, and while it's interesting to think of many aspects of the game as metaphors for real world issues (which they most certainly are, make not mistake about it), there's another level of the game: and that's it's own internal continuity and world-building. With the mages and abominations in particular being such a source of fear in the game world, it makes sense for the devs to want to present us with their own perspective, rather than just hearing about them from templars or seeing them as enemies.

We had Wynne in the last game, but her struggles with her nature were minimal. Anders has an existential crisis resulting from what he is. It's a powerful moment. And even if we don't have to wrestle with demons in the real world, I think many of us reach a moment where we doubt our choices and ourselves. Now multiply that tenfold and you have some idea of what Anders is going through.

Edit: Finally a top post from me that's not a barely on-topic one liner!

Haven't seen this posted in a while, and I love this pic. By payroo.

Modifié par highcastle, 16 juin 2011 - 07:45 .

[ademska]

whoops, added to my post way too late, so here it is again:

"as far as anders' political beliefs are concerned, this goes back to that point of reference. anders has always had the beliefs he holds in da2, right down to the violence--remember where we find him in daa--he just needed an external kick in the seat to grow up and become more altruistic, less ridiculously selfish. like @highcastle said, there was probably no way this was going to happen without justice barring some kind of deeply traumatic experience."

to expand on that, you are under the impression that the violence in hepler's story is a new development for anders.  when we find him in daa, he is surrounded by dead templars and it is heavily implied that he made them that way.  throughout the rest of the game, when presented with events that provoke visible emotion from other characters, he's positively blasé

DreamerM wrote...

You're really going to argue that he's not possessed? He sure acts possessed sometimes, and thinks of himself as possessed. He talks to Merril about what it's like to be possessed in an attempt to scare her away from blood magic, and it sure sounded like he was talking from experience, that there are times when he can't control his own body.

i said demonically possessed, and then i expounded in great detail about how justice is a spirit, not a demon.  i did not imply he was not possessed to some degree.  what i was implying, however, is that spirits are by nature intrinsically different from demons, at least in their treatment of their residences.

if you're going to argue to me that allowing a spirit into a host is akin to demonic possession, then i'm sure wynne would like a word with you

You think you do, anyway. How much of that is actually Justice, and how much is phantom-limb or residual memory from Awakening? You think he's in there, so you put him there yourself. Everyone who hasn't played Awakening gets left in the dust.

If they wanted to make Justice an actual character, or even just a force we were supposed to think about, they should have done more to establish his presense and what it really means for his host. Let us get to know him in his new context as Anders's Jimmeny Cricket, if that's his role.

i'd say, given anders spends the entire game wrestling with himself and can be in a legitimate romance with the protagonist and is, in fact, presented as a person with loves and desires and emotions and a concept of time, something justice is inherently incapable of...

the burden of proof rests on you to prove anders as a person is gone.

one more time: he spends the entire game wrestling with himself.  the friend path and rival path are distinctly different in their treatment of justice and how anders deals with him.  you can't have it both ways; if anders is gone, then justice is a well-established character. if you scratch below the surface even the tiniest bit, justice as a presence is easy to see.

you just have to, you know, want to.

Modifié par ademska, 16 juin 2011 - 07:59 .

[DreamerM]

highcastle wrote...

On the power issue first: I thought both Tranquility and Justice nicely demonstrated Justice's strength. He cuts through those templars pretty easily, and he's pulling Anders' strings the whole time.

In Tranquility, we him transform (eyes glow and all that), but then he attacks with his usual array of spells. They are beefed up spells, but it's nothing spectacular.

And I AM usuing my imagination here. I already told you the version that happened in my own personal imagination version of the Chantry Explosion scene. I'm just wondering why the Writers didn't establish Justice/Vengance as a more powerful force in the story, as opposed to a second hand subject that one character spends a lot of his time complaining about.

highcastle wrote...
Now, it's not that Justice isn't present. He is. But Anders is purposefully vague as to just how entwined versus seperate the two of them are. We clearly see Justice in the Fade and at several key parts of the game. We know he's not fully integrated in Anders' mind, though Anders seems to imply on normal occasions, he feels Justice's thoughts as his own.

I've only been to the Fade once in the game, and Justice wasn't exactly in a chatty mood. Personally I would have liked a chance to get to know him better, learn his opinion on this situation, how things look from his perspective, how much of Anders's panic attacks are real vs. just freaking out about the lack of personal space in his head,  so on and so forth. All we basically have to go on is Anders's descriptions of his own inner-termoil. I can't help but think that maybe people would have reacted to him better if there had been some way to SHOW us the differences between him and Justice, draw a line somewhere, give Justice some distinguishing powers and personality traits that are a bit more distinctive then "Anders is Glowing Again." We end up with a 2ed hand account of his inner termoil. It would have been more emotionally resonant, perhaps, if we got to see it actually in play for ourselves, maybe watch Anders try to shrug it off, and have to decide for ourselves how serious his problems really were. His "woe is me!" attitude gets old...

highcastle wrote...
The other reason for utilizing Justice and not some other force is to present us with a case of an abomination that's not just a slavering fiend for power. Thedas is not Earth, and while it's interesting to think of many aspects of the game as metaphors for real world issues (which they most certainly are, make not mistake about it), there's another level of the game: and that's it's own internal continuity and world-building. With the mages and abominations in particular being such a source of fear in the game world, it makes sense for the devs to want to present us with their own perspective, rather than just hearing about them from templars or seeing them as enemies.

We had Wynne in the last game, but her struggles with her nature were minimal. Anders has an existential crisis resulting from what he is. It's a powerful moment. And even if we don't have to wrestle with demons in the real world, I think many of us reach a moment where we doubt our choices and ourselves. Now multiply that tenfold and you have some idea of what Anders is going through.

But why do we have to multiply it? Why wouldn't a devout political believer, someone who has thrown away everything in the name of his ineffective efforts to fight for his cause, why wouldn't HIS self-doubt and possible mental instability be enough? Why do we need to bring a spirit into it and remove the character one degree from his own heart's cause? I'm having a hard time understanding this from a narrative level.

I get wanting to estabish the "not all Abominations are mindless instruments of destruction" kind of thing, but again I have to think there were better ways to do this then throwing political activism as side-effect of possession into the mix. Plus there was Wynne, who's Spirit of Faith, although definitely present and alive, didn't seem to compete for space inside her consciousness. I don't know if this means Wynne just hangs out with better Spirits when Anders did, or if this is another way that Wynne pwns everything, but we didn't need another abomination to hold up as an example of when such a merger doesn't go as smoothly.

Come to think of it, considering that we've had two "intelligent" abominations in as many games, why is it such an unheard of phenomenon in Thedas? You'd think Mages would seek these benevolent spirits out for themselves.

[ademska]

DreamerM wrote...

Come to think of it, considering that we've had two "intelligent" abominations in as many games, why is it such an unheard of phenomenon in Thedas? You'd think Mages would seek these benevolent spirits out for themselves.

huh, it is interesting that we have two in the different games

i wonder if they'll address it in da3, like maybe introduce more nuance between spirit possession and demon possession and how the world views each

that'd be really awesome actually

[highcastle]

DreamerM wrote...

In Tranquility, we him transform (eyes glow and all that), but then he attacks with his usual array of spells. They are beefed up spells, but it's nothing spectacular.

That's that gameplay versus story segregation issue I brought up before.

And I AM usuing my imagination here. I already told you the version that happened in my own personal imagination version of the Chantry Explosion scene. I'm just wondering why the Writers didn't establish Justice/Vengance as a more powerful force in the story, as opposed to a second hand subject that one character spends a lot of his time complaining about.

Because if you were to spend time talking to Justice, if you were to see things exactly from his perspective or get his views on matters, than the mystery of how-much-is-Anders-and-how-much-is-Justice is easily solved. As things stand now, it'd debatable how much of what Anders did was a result of his own idea or Justice's. We only get his side of the story, and even Anders is confused about what is Justice and what's himself. That's intentional, I believe.

I've only been to the Fade once in the game, and Justice wasn't exactly in a chatty mood. Personally I would have liked a chance to get to know him better, learn his opinion on this situation, how things look from his perspective, how much of Anders's panic attacks are real vs. just freaking out about the lack of personal space in his head,  so on and so forth. All we basically have to go on is Anders's descriptions of his own inner-termoil. I can't help but think that maybe people would have reacted to him better if there had been some way to SHOW us the differences between him and Justice, draw a line somewhere, give Justice some distinguishing powers and personality traits that are a bit more distinctive then "Anders is Glowing Again." We end up with a 2ed hand account of his inner termoil. It would have been more emotionally resonant, perhaps, if we got to see it actually in play for ourselves, maybe watch Anders try to shrug it off, and have to decide for ourselves how serious his problems really were. His "woe is me!" attitude gets old...

Again, definitive answers to any of those questions would ruin the ambiguity of it. Anders delivers contradictory information about Justice because even he's confused about how things work. We're supposed to be somewhat confused too. You have to make a decision without having all the information available.

And you dismiss Anders' inner turmoil too easily, I think. Imagine never being certain if that thought you're thinking now comes from you, or something else. Are your feelings real? Do you really hate your enemy? Do you really love your girlfriend or boyfriend? Maybe it's all a result of some other presence? 

Can you see how easily it would be to fall prey to paranoia and suspicion when you can't even trust yourself? And yes, it's secondhand because Anders is an NPC. The only person we have firsthand knowledge of is Hawke. Talking to Justice wouldn't change that, but it would spoil the tension of Anders' character arc.

But why do we have to multiply it? Why wouldn't a devout political believer, someone who has thrown away everything in the name of his ineffective efforts to fight for his cause, why wouldn't HIS self-doubt and possible mental instability be enough? Why do we need to bring a spirit into it and remove the character one degree from his own heart's cause? I'm having a hard time understanding this from a narrative level.

I get wanting to estabish the "not all Abominations are mindless instruments of destruction" kind of thing, but again I have to think there were better ways to do this then throwing political activism as side-effect of possession into the mix. Plus there was Wynne, who's Spirit of Faith, although definitely present and alive, didn't seem to compete for space inside her consciousness. I don't know if this means Wynne just hangs out with better Spirits when Anders did, or if this is another way that Wynne pwns everything, but we didn't need another abomination to hold up as an example of when such a merger doesn't go as smoothly.

Because at the end of the day, that's the story the devs wanted to tell. Because maybe they wanted to establish that you can't break down spirits and demons into forces of pure good and pure evil respectively. Because it's an important part of their universe.

Come to think of it, considering that we've had two "intelligent" abominations in as many games, why is it such an unheard of phenomenon in Thedas? You'd think Mages would seek these benevolent spirits out for themselves.

Probably because the templars would kill anyone possessed by anything, thus the mages are told to stay away from everything in the Fade. Possibly it was more common in days of old, but it was lost once the Chantry took power.

[ReiSilver]

ademska wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Come to think of it, considering that we've had two "intelligent" abominations in as many games, why is it such an unheard of phenomenon in Thedas? You'd think Mages would seek these benevolent spirits out for themselves.

huh, it is interesting that we have two in the different games

i wonder if they'll address it in da3, like maybe introduce more nuance between spirit possession and demon possession and how the world views each

that'd be really awesome actually

I'm starting to think it depends on the fade sirit in question, even the demons we've seen have varied which I think lends credence to the Dalish way of seeing fade spirits; that they're all different and capable of being dangerous be they a vice or a virtue. Just as Wynne and Anders were possessed by 'good' spirits yet had very different results I can point out two desire demon possessions that were very different from what we saw; Connor vs the Templar in the tower. With Connor's possession the demon started lording it up and causing chaos right away, meanwhile the demon possessing the Templar appeared seperatly and was more inclined to let the templar live out a fantasy while it possessed him like a foothold/food.

Am I the only one having spider-man symbiote flashbacks? I got really into the symbiote stories and seeing the affects of Venom on Peter and Eddie and then Carnage with Kasady. That and I found the symbiont's twisted obsession with Peter fascinating/terrifying

[ademska]

ReiSilver wrote...

I'm starting to think it depends on the fade sirit in question, even the demons we've seen have varied which I think lends credence to the Dalish way of seeing fade spirits; that they're all different and capable of being dangerous be they a vice or a virtue. Just as Wynne and Anders were possessed by 'good' spirits yet had very different results I can point out two desire demon possessions that were very different from what we saw; Connor vs the Templar in the tower. With Connor's possession the demon started lording it up and causing chaos right away, meanwhile the demon possessing the Templar appeared seperatly and was more inclined to let the templar live out a fantasy while it possessed him like a foothold/food.

Am I the only one having spider-man symbiote flashbacks? I got really into the symbiote stories and seeing the affects of Venom on Peter and Eddie and then Carnage with Kasady. That and I found the symbiont's twisted obsession with Peter fascinating/terrifying

yeah, i think i can safely say that i've adopted a sliding scale view of spirits and demons, or maybe grid, some kind of non-binary method of judgment, whatever. and i'm positive that the effect of cohabitation or possession or whathaveyou is at least partly dependent on the host

i think that's why i get frustrated when people adopt such a simplistic, ironclad view of anders, haha

[DreamerM]

ademska wrote...

to expand on that, you are under the impression that the violence in hepler's story is a new development for anders.  when we find him in daa, he is surrounded by dead templars and it is heavily implied that he made them that way.  throughout the rest of the game, when presented with events that provoke visible emotion from other characters, he's positively blasé

Anders, when we first meet him, is also heavily armored by his cynicism, wit, and humor against the cruelty of the world. Personally I don't think he actually killed those Templars, just because I don't think he's powerful enough, but deflecting serious matters with blase humor is kind of what he does, sort of how Alistair originally used jokes to dodge questions he didn't want to answer.

ademska wrote...
if you're going to argue to me that allowing a spirit into a host is akin to demonic possession, then i'm sure wynne would like a word with you

Wynne's spirit, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to jocky for real-estate in her consciousness like Justice does. Her spirit also didn't seem to really want anything from her, as opposed to Justice who sets Anders right on a collision course with The Inability of One Guy to Really Change Anything ™.

ademska wrote...
the burden of proof rests on you to prove anders as a person is gone.

ANDERS is the one who claims he's got almost nothing left except Justice and his hatred of the Templars. He seriously asks you what little is left if you get rid of those two things? And it's somehow not an option to point out Justice can't love anything.

Besides, what does he talk about? Justice, mages, and.....um.... well if you romance him then he'll talk about how much he loves you, and how afraid he is for you. So that's some variety. He has more interesting conversations with Varric then he does with me.

ademska wrote...
one more time: he spends the entire game wrestling with himself.  the friend path and rival path are distinctly different in their treatment of justice and how anders deals with him.  you can't have it both ways; if anders is gone, then justice is a well-established character. if you scratch below the surface even the tiniest bit, justice as a presence is easy to see.

you just have to, you know, want to.

Which is the problem. If it's there, it should BE there. I shouldn't have to squint at it just right in order to spot it. I shouldn't have to imagine it for myself if it's supposed to be a real plot point.

[ademska]

DreamerM wrote...

Which is the problem. If it's there, it should BE there. I shouldn't have to squint at it just right in order to spot it. I shouldn't have to imagine it for myself if it's supposed to be a real plot point.

so much of anders' character is left intentionally ambiguous, and others have stated my case better than i, so i'll leave them to it but...

i think that statement right there is the core of the issue.

dragon age 2 is, in many respects, written as a subtler narrative.  bioware intentionally crafts games, particularly the dragon age series, with the expectation that players will use their imaginations to some degree to aid in the storytelling of a limited media.

the writers are not required to spoon-feed information that's supposed to be up to the player to interpret in the first place.

[BlueMew]

Hmm, it's certainly easier on the Friendship path to hold the position that the whole Justice thing was the right thing to do, but it's not all of it. Even Hepler shortsells it a little IMO. I always take the Friendship path and there are *still* opportunitites to tell Anders you don't want to lose him to Justice, that you don't appreciate being used, etc.

Which is good. On the other hand, if you choose Rivalry you do not only have to disagree on the Justice merge, you have to actively support the Chantry or be hard ass on the mages. Unless you micromanage, of course :/

[Giggles_Manically]

I never had to be anti-mage.

Hell I just was anti-possession and pro-law and order with my canon and maxed his rivalry.
Its surprisingly easy.

Plus you get one really awesome line if you go for rivalry:
"Then you should have not let him inside you in the first place, that is what DEMONS do"

[Ryzaki]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I never had to be anti-mage.

Hell I just was anti-possession and pro-law and order with my canon and maxed his rivalry.
Its surprisingly easy.

Plus you get one really awesome line if you go for rivalry:
"Then you should have not let him inside you in the first place, that is what DEMONS do"

Even my friendship Hawkes point that out. 

Letting a spirit inside of you is ridculous to them. A "good spirit" makes them LOL. Even the best of intentions can lead to a horrible tragedy. 

Plus...giving anything the opportunity to make you a puppet = idiot in their books. But that's just them. (and me. I don't comprehend giving anything that much power over me. Just...no not worth anything.) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 11:12 .

[AndreaDraco]

highcastle wrote...


By payroo.

Very sweet!

[kromify]

in response to what dreamerM said a while back (i think it was you but i'm too lazy to go back and look) but i don't think was really answered;

why can't anders be a revolutionary without justice? (in essence)
awakenings was clearly a set-up for da2 - it was always the point to have JAnders the way he was. this isn't the point.
the value of JAnders to the plot is because he's an abomination, which makes him morally ambiguous to a lot of people. if we had a mage like beth or a circle mage's angry relative, for instance, it would have been a lot easier to support their pov. because JAnders is the very thing the circles are designed to prevent it makes him easier to condemn.


also; yay i have a degree today!

Modifié par kromify, 16 juin 2011 - 11:23 .

[kromify]

thank 'ee  

[ReiSilver]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The whole difference between possession by a spirit versus possession by a demon has me stratching my head. Word of God states that there is a difference. Demons possess their victims from the Fade, overriding the victim's will completely - they don't merge with their hosts and share their bodies as is the case of Justice. That's why it's entirely possible to make Connor un-possessed by confronting his demon, and why Maric could save Fiona - and yet, Marethari stated that anyone who is saved from possession is forever damaged, like a wounded deer ripe for the taking by other predators. But Connor and Fiona seemed fine? Is she talking about being saved from merging, or possession now? I'm confused.

I remember there's audio floating around on youtube that hints that Connor at one point was going to be in DA2
*shakes fist at the sky* I would have been very interested to see what had become of Connor (assuming he lived in your playthrough of course)

[kromify]

if he was out and about with teagan in kirkwall he wasn't too badly affected.

[elenilote]

ElleMullineux wrote...

The wonderful crackfest that is twitter and tumblr!

A special present for elenilote for my awful misbehaving this morning, but I'm sure we can share


By the magnificent KamiDoodles on tumblr aka kireikaoruchan on devArt

 OK. You are forgiven 

[SurelyForth]

ademska wrote...

to expand on that, you are under the impression that the violence in hepler's story is a new development for anders.  when we find him in daa, he is surrounded by dead templars and it is heavily implied that he made them that way.  throughout the rest of the game, when presented with events that provoke visible emotion from other characters, he's positively blasé

Of all the things to pick out of this discussion...

This is...wrong. While he may have killed the templars, the impression I have gained was that, despite his constant escaping and hatred of them, he always went back without a fight. Otherwise, they would have killed/imprisoned him for certain. The fact that you can send him away and he always comes back indicates, to me, that he's not guility of any crimes at that point, as he most certainly wouldn't want to return to the scene with dead templars were he responsible for their deaths.

As for the emotions...Anders and Sigrun are the compassionate party members in Awakening, approval wise. When the Warden discovers what happened in the Wending Woods, Anders is visibly upset and wants to get back to Velanna as quickly as possible to prevent further bloodshed. He's also very vocally (probably the most vocal) for defending Amaranthine on the grounds that there are still survivors...as a matter of fact, he actually compares abandoning the city to being no better than the darkspawn.

I think one of the points of Anders in Awakening is that he's self-centered, shallow and obsessed with his own freedom but is, at the same time, compassionate and willing to put others above himself when it comes time to make a choice. Heck, even his necklace is a gift from a nobleman he saved when escaped...the fact that he would risk being caught to help a stranger speaks very highly of who he is as a person. Certainly, he's capable of violence, but so is Wynne.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 16 juin 2011 - 12:24 .