57020 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

kromify wrote...

just popping back in before i go to bed. (i'm whacked)

i don't believe it does dimish his convictions. i think it was to strengthen the case of the templars because he's a dangerous abomination, otherwise any old 1-person revoltionary would have been fine. perhaps meredith was under the influence, as it were, for the same reasoning. 
bioware was merely trying to blur the lines by making neither of them the best person for the job.

anyway - that's my take  

I think part of the point is that they were both supposed to champion the strongest arguments of their groups, while simultaneously embodying the strongest arguments against themselves.

The Idol just kind of muddies the whole thing, though, since the Idol removes any rational thought or responsibility on Meredith's part (rendering it kind of moot, because then the Idol is the central thematic "antagonist" instead of believable human extremism). Anders is not really the same because a) the loss of control is part of the argument against mages in the first place and not just something that unnecessarily turns him into a one-dimensional villain, and Justice is sapient on his own, unlike the Idol. The issue wouldn't have been any more flat if Justice were working entirely on his own, so I don't think his influence detracts from the humanity of Janders's actions in the same way the Idol does.

This is one of those days where I spend a very long time struggling to translate extremely simple ideas into sentences that are not incomprehensible word salad so forgive my unusually incoherent writing.

Modifié par ipgd, 16 juin 2011 - 09:15 .

[Frishmet]

Arquen wrote...

So isn't this back to the age old question of whether Anders would do the same things in da2 without justice? I mean playing the what if game just drives ppl crazy. I guess the point is that Anders was always capable and says justice is twisted by his anger and his emotions. That he refers to justice as a force of vengeance keeps justice at a distance on purpose.

Honestly there is no reason to think justice isn't dangerous or that Anders isn't a high risk kind of guy. He could have been the same revolutionary without justice but because of justice you see what a fractured person with a third party motivation is capable of. Never did I think justice wasn't dangerous or that Anders was someone who didn't have a strong will and strong beliefs even without justice.

I don't believe either Anders OR Justice alone would have done what they did together.  It was that unique mix of anger and compassion and justice,  together with Ander's particular life experience and Justices singleminded naiveté mixed together in a specific way and pointed at that particular cause.

[DreamerM]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

DA2 (and the unseen time between Awakening and DA2) is all about watching Anders lose the things a king, funny, careless man has to lose to become the kind of person who can live for a cause.

And this couldn't have happened WITHOUT surrendering half of his mind and almost all of his identity to a fade spirit? I can't help but think that maybe he might have been more understandable and sympathetic if we actually got to see his transformation through circumstance, as a person, rather then as a victim of possession constantly at war with his own thoughts.

I get that we're supposed to compare him to his Awakening self and feel bad for what happened to him. But not everyone is going to get to play Awakening, either because they don't have xbox live or because they refuse to shell out that kind of cash for an expansion pack. And Anders, without the Awakening backstory, isn't sympathetic or likeable enough to really sell the tragedy of what has happened to him. I think in jumbling the Abomination story together with the Political Awakening story, they got something that's just kind of...confusing. Wrought with angst, surely, but also very confusing.

[ipgd]

DreamerM wrote...

And this couldn't have happened WITHOUT surrendering half of his mind and almost all of his identity to a fade spirit? I can't help but think that maybe he might have been more understandable and sympathetic if we actually got to see his transformation through circumstance, as a person, rather then as a victim of possession constantly at war with his own thoughts.

Yes, but then he doesn't also become the reason why the Circles exist in the first place. Which is part of the point, I think. He is an inherently contradictory figure.

Modifié par ipgd, 16 juin 2011 - 09:33 .

[ademska]

DreamerM wrote...

And this couldn't have happened WITHOUT surrendering half of his mind and almost all of his identity to a fade spirit? I can't help but think that maybe he might have been more understandable and sympathetic if we actually got to see his transformation through circumstance, as a person, rather then as a victim of possession constantly at war with his own thoughts.

now you're asking that he be portrayed as more sympathetic instead of dangerous, and i think that is indicative of the excellent job bioware did making his character extremely ambiguous. the writers deliberately presented anders in a way that makes the judgment call on whether he is sympathetic or dangeous up to you. or rather, us, the players.

what you're asking is essentially for them to make the choice less gray and easier, but that's kind of the whole point.

I get that we're supposed to compare him to his Awakening self and feel bad for what happened to him. But not everyone is going to get to play Awakening, either because they don't have xbox live or because they refuse to shell out that kind of cash for an expansion pack. And Anders, without the Awakening backstory, isn't sympathetic or likeable enough to really sell the tragedy of what has happened to him. I think in jumbling the Abomination story together with the Political Awakening story, they got something that's just kind of...confusing. Wrought with angst, surely, but also very confusing.

but that's the thing, we're not necessarily supposed to feel bad for him. he is a character whose entire disposition is prone to wildly varying interpretation, from support to anger to disapproval to pity to apathy. you may not find him particularly sympathetic, but my closest friend played da2 without having played awakening and found him plenty so, especially given his overall demeanor in act 1 versus act 3

Modifié par ademska, 16 juin 2011 - 09:44 .

[YamiSnuffles]

I'm going to sort of simplify my thoughts on the matter so I don't go into a whole wall-o-text. Basically, as I see it, Anders may have somehow, on his own, become a similar man to the one we see in DA2. However, beyond anything else, the reason for Janders in the plot is the Chantry bombing. He has to bomb the place and remove any middle path for Hawke/the player. Through the rivalry, Anders can be convinced not to bomb the Chantry. Justice is needed because the Chantry still needs to be bombed. There has to be someone to take the reigns when Anders gets swayed to rethink the path he's taking.

Justice on his own very likely wouldn't have bombed a Chantry. So Justice needs Anders to turn him into Vengeance and make him more single minded and violent. Anders needs Justice so that- no matter what- he bombs the Chantry. Together they become a force that just can't be stopped through any amount of friendship/rivalry points.

As for the abomination thing making Anders less sympathetic... I don't really see that at all, so I can't comment on it. People are bound to dislike or even hate various characters no matter how likeable or sympathetic they might seem to others. I don't see any way this could be entirely avoided with Anders. Even if Anders and Varric had switched places, I'm sure plenty of people would hate Varric after he bombed some Chantry sisters to hell and back.

[DreamerM]

ipgd wrote...
Yes, but then he doesn't also become the reason why the Circles exist in the first place. Which is part of the point, I think. He is an inherently contradictory figure.

I think we meet enough example of insane, blood-crazed mages and the damage they cause to understand that there does need to be some sort of system in place to protect the common people from them.

I understand making Anders a walking, talking Ambiguity has huge dramatic potential, but what we never got (In DA2 anyway) is a foothold towards understanding him as a person. I spent more time trying to figure out what the heck was going on in his head then sorting out my own feelings about his struggles.

Compare this to the rather plain-terms but deep emotional consequences about some choices you make in DA:O...like Morrigan's ritual or who to place on the throne. I agonized for days over some choices for days, but it wasn't because I didn't understand what was in play. Sometimes with Anders, it's like I have no clue who or what I am really dealing with, he's just a jumble of thoughts...

[Arquen]

LOL his dichotomy is what makes him so charming as a character. The player is supposed to be left with those feelings. So obviously they are doing something right.

I'm reminded of:
Isabela: Hello? Is Anders there? Can I speak to Anders?
Anders: You can stop yelling. It's always me.
Isabela: Oh, good. I didn't want to talk to that other guy. You know, the stick-in-the-mud.
Anders: He can still hear you. Justice and I are one.
Anders: Anyway, you wanted to talk to me?
Isabela: Not really. I just wanted to make sure it was you.

Seriously, though the ambiguity of the characters is the best part. You can spend days and weeks and lifetimes fathoming depths of the character simply because so many questions are presented and yet left unanswered fully or concretely. Just look at this thread. So many interpretations of the same events/character/etc.

[ipgd]

DreamerM wrote...

I think we meet enough example of insane, blood-crazed mages and the damage they cause to understand that there does need to be some sort of system in place to protect the common people from them.

Part of his character is his extremely polarized, contradictory elements. It's an internal issue as well as a broader thematically consistent one. If the over-representation of blood mages is a problem, I'd argue for the reduction of the throw-away fringe elements before the removal of the single most developed and nuanced example.

I understand making Anders a walking, talking Ambiguity has huge dramatic potential, but what we never got (In DA2 anyway) is a foothold towards understanding him as a person. I spent more time trying to figure out what the heck was going on in his head then sorting out my own feelings about his struggles.

Compare this to the rather plain-terms but deep emotional consequences about some choices you make in DA:O...like Morrigan's ritual or who to place on the throne. I agonized for days over some choices for days, but it wasn't because I didn't understand what was in play. Sometimes with Anders, it's like I have no clue who or what I am really dealing with, he's just a jumble of thoughts...

The only question about Anders that really gives me any particular amount of pause (due to internal contradictions rather than lack of information) is "how much individuality and autonomy do Anders and Justice each have, if any?" I don't find the rest of his character that unclear, beyond the things that are very obviously intended to be left ambiguous, so I'm not sure where you're coming from here.

The simplest answer for the reason Anders is the way he is is because the writers wanted it that way. I suppose it all could have worked somehow if Justice weren't involved, but... why? It doesn't seem to make him any better or worse from a literary standpoint, just different. While arguments can be made for its refinement, I see nothing conceptually wrong with Janders.

[YamiSnuffles]

Comedy of sorts.


by thats-your-funeral

[DreamerM]

ipgd wrote...
If the over-representation of blood mages is a problem, I'd argue for the reduction of the throw-away fringe elements before the removal of the single most developed and nuanced example.

I do think that DA:2 had TOO MANY BLOOD MAGES. Really, they are everywere! But we don't meet very many Abominations. I would have liked for them to explore more of what being an abomination, especially an intelligent one, would actually mean.

Like we get some banter where Anders talks to Merril about what it's like to be possessed, and he sounds like he's talking from experience, implying there are times when Vengence/Justice takes over and he can't control his actions, but then he goes back to insistence that he and Justice "are one," impying they are equal and merged and of one mind and all that. Which should mean that Anders is never not in control, because Anders and Justice are the same.

So mixed signals. Yes it's ambiguous, but I think the point of ambiguity to get you to think more deeply about the issues raised. And I think there's kind of no point in thinking much more deeply about Janders, because I will never ever figure it out, because I am given no base of knowledge to try figuring it out with, because there's probably no clear answer anyway, and that makes me think even the writers didn't know, maybe they didn't care, hey, if THEY didn't care then why should I care, why am I fishing for an answer that's non-existant, why am I wasting my time, why oh look my pizza rolls are done! 

ipgd wrote...
While arguments can be made for its refinement, I see nothing conceptually wrong with Janders.

Neither do I, I just think his character's concept didn't quite match the way he was utilized in the story. The guy who bombed the chantry should have been an idealistic Bill Ayres styled character, someone who really thought what he was doing was RIGHT, not a broken tortured half-spirit unable to stop the voices in his head. Then the choice would be more about you and what YOU believe, and less about whether or not the bomber's in full control of his facilties.

There is a lot of dramatic potential for Janders, but of all the possible roles for him to play, I think they picked one of the weaker ones.

[SurelyForth]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Comedy of sorts.

by thats-your-funeral

Hawke: But...I didn't break up with you! 
Anders: You faked it the first time we were together.
Hawke: 
Varric: And that's why Anders blew up the Chantry.
Cassandra: ...he's a petty man, this Anders.
Varric: It would seem that way.

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

Hawke: But...I didn't break up with you! 
Anders: You faked it the first time we were together.
Hawke: 
Varric: And that's why Anders blew up the Chantry.
Cassandra: ...he's a petty man, this Anders.
Varric: It would seem that way.

Hahahaha. Oh Anders.

[xRiseAboveThis]

So I just discovered that Adam Howden replied to two of my DA2-related tweets from last month... As an Anders fan, am I justified in feeling all breathless and squeaky right now, or does that make me a huge loser?

/random

[CulturalGeekGirl]

xRiseAboveThis wrote...

So I just discovered that Adam Howden replied to two of my DA2-related tweets from last month... As an Anders fan, am I justified in feeling all breathless and squeaky right now, or does that make me a huge loser?

/random

Totally justified.

That's one of the things I love about Twitter. It allows us to get a nice vaguely friendly feeling with people we are fans of without feeling intrusive or loserly

Hurrah for you!

[Evilnor]

xRiseAboveThis wrote...

So I just discovered that Adam Howden replied to two of my DA2-related tweets from last month... As an Anders fan, am I justified in feeling all breathless and squeaky right now, or does that make me a huge loser?

/random

now you must share the comments and his replies so that we may live vicariously through you

[xRiseAboveThis]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

xRiseAboveThis wrote...

So I just discovered that Adam Howden replied to two of my DA2-related tweets from last month... As an Anders fan, am I justified in feeling all breathless and squeaky right now, or does that make me a huge loser?

/random

Totally justified.

That's one of the things I love about Twitter. It allows us to get a nice vaguely friendly feeling with people we are fans of without feeling intrusive or loserly

Hurrah for you!

Glad I'm not being silly, then. 

[xRiseAboveThis]

Evilnor wrote...

xRiseAboveThis wrote...

So I just discovered that Adam Howden replied to two of my DA2-related tweets from last month... As an Anders fan, am I justified in feeling all breathless and squeaky right now, or does that make me a huge loser?

/random

now you must share the comments and his replies so that we may live vicariously through you

"@xStandingStill: So internet-stalking Adam Howden is very difficult, due to the large amount of people with the same name.

@A_HOWDZ: There aren't that many are there? #balls I'll kill 'em all!!!"

That one was... actually rather awkward. I'm glad he didn't take my comment about stalking him seriously.

"@xStandingStill: So in addition to playing Anders in Dragon Age: Awakening, Greg Ellis also played Alister in Tomb Raider Legend. I may love this man.
@A_HOWDZ: you should love me more!"

He might have his wish granted there, although choosing between them is ridiculously difficult.

(Sorry about posting twice in a row btw )

Modifié par xRiseAboveThis, 17 juin 2011 - 02:49 .

[DreamerM]

xRiseAboveThis wrote...

So I just discovered that Adam Howden replied to two of my DA2-related tweets from last month... As an Anders fan, am I justified in feeling all breathless and squeaky right now, or does that make me a huge loser?

/random

Nope. We've all been there. Hell I had a Reuben Langdon obession for a year after Devil May Cry 3 took over my life... so yeah. It's all good, we're all fangirls here!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Haha, awesome.

I've always thought it must be strange for the lesser-known VAs who suddenly find themselves with hordes of fangirls. Brandon Keener (Garrus) is also very nice to his fans. The fact that they're actually enjoying the adoration makes them even cooler.

[beckaliz]

I am now following Adam Howden on Twitter. Thank you for sharing. XD My Twitter is mainly just full of celebrities, it's nice to add another one. (Simon Pegg tweets NONSTOP btw.)

[SurelyForth]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Haha, awesome.

I've always thought it must be strange for the lesser-known VAs who suddenly find themselves with hordes of fangirls. Brandon Keener (Garrus) is also very nice to his fans. The fact that they're actually enjoying the adoration makes them even cooler.

I end way too many random tweets with #turiansexgod to feel comfortable following Brandon Keener. I also actively fangirl him, while Adam just amuses me greatly.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 17 juin 2011 - 03:27 .

[beckaliz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Haha, awesome.

I've always thought it must be strange for the lesser-known VAs who suddenly find themselves with hordes of fangirls. Brandon Keener (Garrus) is also very nice to his fans. The fact that they're actually enjoying the adoration makes them even cooler.

What's Brandon Keener's twitter? 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

beckaliz wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Haha, awesome.

I've always thought it must be strange for the lesser-known VAs who suddenly find themselves with hordes of fangirls. Brandon Keener (Garrus) is also very nice to his fans. The fact that they're actually enjoying the adoration makes them even cooler.

What's Brandon Keener's twitter? 

He uses Facebook instead, but he'll actually reply to fans there quite often, according to the Garrusthread Scuttlebutt. There's a link to his FB at the end of this article.

I prefer twitter myself... so Howden get a few more points in my book for that being his social network of choice.