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[Arquen]

Am I the only crazy one that thinks Anders and Justice still both exist as separate yet undefinable entities within Anders?

It seems to easy to make Justice into a scapegoat. I cling to the idea that Justice became warped into Vengeance. I believe Anders when he says this. That he is "no longer my friend, but a force for Vengeance." We already saw Justice exhibiting desires back in Awakenings. I'm not saying Justice is to blame for the chantry, but I'm also not saying that Anders is trying to justify Justice.

To me Justice exists inside Anders as much as Anders now exists within Justice. That may sound more confusing and ambiguous, but the idea is that two people fused together. There has to be a partition of the mind where there is only Justice and only Anders. The fact that Anders states his "spirit fulfilled it's purpose" after planting the bomb suggests that it was neither the fault of one or the other, but rests with both of them. Anders' ideals, Justice's drive to uphold ideals (and Justice), and the emotions caught in between. Whenever I think of the Fade I think of how much emotion plays a part.

In essence I think Justice is that way as well, "ruled by emotion," only he has also been tainted by desires. I just can't accept that they are so deeply fused that Justice is simply a voice in Anders head. I truly think he is a separate entity existing in Anders. Of course because he is so ruled by emotion, he only comes out with emotions (mostly anger). Anders in himself had learned to quell that anger and even to be blase about it by deferring it with humor. Now Justice nags in his mind as a constant emotional/ intellectual surge. He's always there, and intertwined in Anders' own thoughts, but still separate from Anders' true self.

Edit: OMG top of page again, I'M SORRY!!



by enife on DA

Modifié par Arquen, 18 juin 2011 - 01:38 .

[ipgd]

That isn't my interpretation, though. "Anders" is as much of a construct as "Justice" -- Janders is the holistic entity, and the division is now an artificial one of identity.

It's still accurate to say that Anders corrupted Justice, and vice-versa. There are aspects of Janders that originally derive from his Anders and his Justice aspects, and some of them reacted with volatility.

Again, the key is that Janders is not Anders, he simply wants to be. He is as much Justice as he is Anders, but he denies it when it suits him. He similarly speaks of his nature as a completely merged entity when he has least reason to make excuse for his actions.

It's not to say that Justice isn't real, Janders just possibly frames that part of him in a way that isn't strictly accurate.

[Madriu034]

Arquen wrote...

Am I the only crazy one that thinks Anders and Justice still both exist as separate yet undefinable entities within Anders?

Nope, I think that as well, see my post about the two at the top of page 1808.  Tho I really do see the awesome aspects of ipgd's 'colloid' idea as well.  I think there is room for interpretation

Anders' ideals, Justice's drive to uphold ideals (and Justice), and the emotions caught in between. Whenever I think of the Fade I think of how much emotion plays a part.

In essence I think Justice is that way as well, "ruled by emotion," only he has also been tainted by desires. I just can't accept that they are so deeply fused that Justice is simply a voice in Anders head. I truly think he is a separate entity existing in Anders. Of course because he is so ruled by emotion, he only comes out with emotions (mostly anger). Anders in himself had learned to quell that anger and even to be blase about it by deferring it with humor. Now Justice nags in his mind as a constant emotional/ intellectual surge. He's always there, and intertwined in Anders' own thoughts, but still separate from Anders' true self.

I also take this and throw it in another direction.  Imagine if you will that every time you got angry, for... let's say, infinite amounts of time, it was always righteous anger.  And by that I mean you were completely and totally in the right to be angry, to the right level, toward the right entity, etc.  This is Justice.  And now, he's feeling a great deal of anger, with nothing in his faculties to say that hey, this emotion, it could be wrong/too much/misdirected.  Also, when Justice would get angry before the merge, it always meant that it was time for him to act -- to dispense justice.  So, he still does.

I'm not thoroughly convinced that Justice is constantly Vengeance in DA2 as well, by that I mean constantly the brutal demonic thing we see when he takes over.  In the Fade, he seems rather cold, but not murderous.  Let's face it, between Anders and Justice, Justice is the more powerful one when it comes to the battle of the minds.  So why do we see Anders in control almost all of the time?  Because Justice lets him be.  Justice feels like he has to pay Anders back for the opportunity given.  Part of that payback is mage freedom, however, so he won't give up on that, even if Anders does.

Modifié par Madriu034, 18 juin 2011 - 02:32 .

[legbamel]

highcastle wrote...
[giganto-snip for space]
Justice, however, tends to get demonized by quite a few people. And there are legitimate bases for concern. It seems he was the one who approached Anders (judging by the short story), which puts his possession in a suspect light. He's definitely a source of constant stress for Anders, too. But let's look at the good he's done: before possessing Anders, Anders was largely selfish and self-serving. What's the first thing we see him doing in DA2, though? Helping the sick. Do you see DAA!Anders hosting a free clinic for refugees and the downtrodden? Similarly, he's heavily involved in the liberation of oppressed mages. DAA!Anders made it clear he watched his own skin first and foremost, and risking it for others was not something that held much appeal to him.

I know a lot is made of Anders saying he's selfish and too lazy and self-involved in Awakenings but his actions belie those words.  Even if you send him away as soon as you meet him he comes back to help you.  He doesn't know then that you can/will conscript him and save him from the Templars but he does it anyway.  I tend to think of him as never being a position in which he felt secure enough in his own freedom to try to help others on a larger scale.  But isn't a part of his backstory being caught because he was helping people?

I think the clinic and mage underground are perfectly in character for Anders and likely help him to find a balance with Justice while they're looking for a way to accomplish what Justice really wants: the big boom, the strike for all mage-hood.  Justice was just as selfish in Awakening as Anders was, he just had less time to tell you about it or develop that aspect (particularly if you saved him for last on most runs so that you could make everyone else Wardens...not that I did that or anything ).

As a bonus, I offer an Anders song.  Dark Blue makes me think of a rivalmanced Anders, particularly in light of the drowning in blood comment.

[leggywillow]

highcastle wrote...
Justice, however, tends to get demonized by quite a few people.

Ba dum TISH!

[SurelyForth]

legbamel wrote...

I know a lot is made of Anders saying he's selfish and too lazy and self-involved in Awakenings but his actions belie those words.  Even if you send him away as soon as you meet him he comes back to help you.  He doesn't know then that you can/will conscript him and save him from the Templars but he does it anyway.  I tend to think of him as never being a position in which he felt secure enough in his own freedom to try to help others on a larger scale.  But isn't a part of his backstory being caught because he was helping people?

I think the clinic and mage underground are perfectly in character for Anders and likely help him to find a balance with Justice while they're looking for a way to accomplish what Justice really wants: the big boom, the strike for all mage-hood.  Justice was just as selfish in Awakening as Anders was, he just had less time to tell you about it or develop that aspect (particularly if you saved him for last on most runs so that you could make everyone else Wardens...not that I did that or anything ).

Yep! His necklace in Awakening, the Fox's Pendant, is a gift from a nobleman he saved during one of his escape attempts.

[legbamel]

DreamerM wrote...
[massive snipparooni]
Plus there was Wynne, who's Spirit of Faith, although definitely present and alive, didn't seem to compete for space inside her consciousness. I don't know if this means Wynne just hangs out with better Spirits when Anders did, or if this is another way that Wynne pwns everything, but we didn't need another abomination to hold up as an example of when such a merger doesn't go as smoothly.

But Wynne's spirit is still in the Fade, if I understand events correctly.  She was possessed the same way Connor was...at a distance.  That Anders, he's unique. 

[legbamel]

ipgd wrote...

kromify wrote...
just popping back in before i go to bed. (i'm whacked)

i don't believe it does dimish his convictions. i think it was to strengthen the case of the templars because he's a dangerous abomination, otherwise any old 1-person revoltionary would have been fine. perhaps meredith was under the influence, as it were, for the same reasoning. 
bioware was merely trying to blur the lines by making neither of them the best person for the job.

anyway - that's my take  

I think part of the point is that they were both supposed to champion the strongest arguments of their groups, while simultaneously embodying the strongest arguments against themselves.

The Idol just kind of muddies the whole thing, though, since the Idol removes any rational thought or responsibility on Meredith's part (rendering it kind of moot, because then the Idol is the central thematic "antagonist" instead of believable human extremism). Anders is not really the same because a) the loss of control is part of the argument against mages in the first place and not just something that unnecessarily turns him into a one-dimensional villain, and Justice is sapient on his own, unlike the Idol. The issue wouldn't have been any more flat if Justice were working entirely on his own, so I don't think his influence detracts from the humanity of Janders's actions in the same way the Idol does.

This is one of those days where I spend a very long time struggling to translate extremely simple ideas into sentences that are not incomprehensible word salad so forgive my unusually incoherent writing.

If it weren't for the Bartrand quests I could handwave the idol as a way to give Meredith the superpowers she needs to be a boss fight and her descent into madness is just that.  But with them...yeah, it weakens her character and her impact on the story.  It makes her backstory irrelevant even though there is plenty there to explain what happens without the idol melting her brain.

[Evilnor]

Yeah, with Meredith, the crazy foundation is already there. She's oppressive and zealous at the start, but apparently still reasonable. She's completely aware of the protective role the Templar Order serves on behalf of the mages to protect them from the outside as much as (or more than) the outside is protected from them. Even after she already bought the idol from Bartrand, she's in control enough of her faculties to turn down Ser Alrik's plan. The idol serves as a plot device to take away her remaining reason. Of course, this does diminish the human factor, but it tips her in a fantastical way to an undeniable "bad" just as Orsino tips to "bad" by making himself into a humongous abomination via blood magic, no matter who you side with. If anything, the idol makes it so that Meredith's actions suddenly make more sense than Orsino's, if you happen to be on his side.

God, Orsino's such a ******.

[highcastle]

legbamel wrote...

highcastle wrote...
[giganto-snip for space]
Justice, however, tends to get demonized by quite a few people. And there are legitimate bases for concern. It seems he was the one who approached Anders (judging by the short story), which puts his possession in a suspect light. He's definitely a source of constant stress for Anders, too. But let's look at the good he's done: before possessing Anders, Anders was largely selfish and self-serving. What's the first thing we see him doing in DA2, though? Helping the sick. Do you see DAA!Anders hosting a free clinic for refugees and the downtrodden? Similarly, he's heavily involved in the liberation of oppressed mages. DAA!Anders made it clear he watched his own skin first and foremost, and risking it for others was not something that held much appeal to him.

I know a lot is made of Anders saying he's selfish and too lazy and self-involved in Awakenings but his actions belie those words.  Even if you send him away as soon as you meet him he comes back to help you.  He doesn't know then that you can/will conscript him and save him from the Templars but he does it anyway.  I tend to think of him as never being a position in which he felt secure enough in his own freedom to try to help others on a larger scale.  But isn't a part of his backstory being caught because he was helping people?

I think the clinic and mage underground are perfectly in character for Anders and likely help him to find a balance with Justice while they're looking for a way to accomplish what Justice really wants: the big boom, the strike for all mage-hood.  Justice was just as selfish in Awakening as Anders was, he just had less time to tell you about it or develop that aspect (particularly if you saved him for last on most runs so that you could make everyone else Wardens...not that I did that or anything ).

As a bonus, I offer an Anders song.  Dark Blue makes me think of a rivalmanced Anders, particularly in light of the drowning in blood comment.

Well, Anders paints himself as a pretty selfish person, but you're right, some of his actions contradict that (proving that even back in Awakening, he didn't really understand himself). Of course, not being inside Anders' head, this is where you can get into a debate about altruisim. Is Anders helping these people out of genuine compassion, or is he doing it because he thinks they might recripocate and/or allow him his freedom? This is just for the sake of argument here. Personally, I tend to agree with your interpretation: Anders never felt capable of helping anyone on a large scale, so he does what he can.

However, my point about the clinic stands. That's a very risky, high-profile operation there. The bartender in the Hanged Man knows about it. The templars learn, too. I just think DAA!Anders wouldn't want to bear that heat, that he would consider it far too much trouble or too great a risk.

[kromify]

oh - i missed the rainbows!!!    we need more crack. more crack, i say!

[FieryDove]

legbamel wrote...

But Wynne's spirit is still in the Fade, if I understand events correctly.  She was possessed the same way Connor was...at a distance.  That Anders, he's unique. 

The spirit of faith (If that is what it really is) merged with Wynne. It is also getting weaker as time goes by and will die and with it Wynne. If Wynne uses *extra* help from the spirit it weakens even faster. I think the reason we never see it take control is it wanted nothing except to save Wynne's life. So no power struggle. That's what I got from my talks with Wynne about it.

If it was still just a fade spirit in the fade it would be immortal I'm guessing. Yes? No?

I'm curious if Justice is able to prolong Ander's life or if both are *dying* faster because of the merge or is a different sort of merge than Wynne had. Anders has the taint as well which could complicate things. Anders does talk about Justice outliving us and just going back to the fade but does he really know this or is assuming?

[ekurian]

I've been away for a while- Maker, how I missed this thread. Deep, meaningful conversations, preceded by sparklebutt JAnders.

[Toastyblue2]

FieryDove wrote...

legbamel wrote...

But Wynne's spirit is still in the Fade, if I understand events correctly.  She was possessed the same way Connor was...at a distance.  That Anders, he's unique. 

I'm curious if Justice is able to prolong Ander's life or if both are *dying* faster because of the merge or is a different sort of merge than Wynne had. Anders has the taint as well which could complicate things. Anders does talk about Justice outliving us and just going back to the fade but does he really know this or is assuming?

I might be pulling this out of my butt, but this is what I sort of assumed: being an abomination seems to eventually change the physical body of a mage, and that looks like it can't be a good thing. I can't imagine that their bodies can handle that very well. I also kinda assumed that there's high levels of Fade energy in their bodies due to the presence of spirits, and that probably has more than a few adverse effects.

I may have also read this in a codex in Origins. I'm not sure. Like I said, I'm probably wrong, but this is sort of what I've been running with while writing fanfic.

[AndreaDraco]

Arquen wrote...

by honestlies on DA

Great work! The textures she used for the cat's fur and the blanket are gorgeous!

[SurelyForth]

Popping in to plant two lovely Anders sketches in here...



by AnastsuyaChubar

As for altruistic Anders, I have no doubt that he used people (I'd say he was most definitely using Namaya). But I think it's still his gut reaction to help if he can and it's not always motivated by getting something out of it. I feel like the fact that he doesn't really ask the Warden to stick up for him at the beginning of Awakening indicates that he did just want to help and didn't expect anything in return (considering he's extremely grateful if all you do is tell Rylock that he was helpful and turn him over anyway).

[kromify]

top one looks like a girl  

[legbamel]

I tend to think the clinic was something that he sort of fell into while trying to get a message and arrange the meeting with Karl. He helped one poor refugee and they brought someone else and then the word spread and he just didn't know how to say no. He got to like the way people protected him and were so thankful and it just sort of mushroomed into this room someone found for him to use and some people volunteered to help him, too. Plus being an altruistic healer living with a bunch of refugees is about the least threatening apostate ever.

[Evilnor]

@ Kromify: yeah, I thought that, too. I think it's the lips; they seem too defined, like he's wearing lipstick.

Damnit, now I have the urge to see Anders in drag (not that that's too different from wearing robes in the first place)

Anyway, as for the serious discussion, I definitely think Anders was a "love 'em and leave 'em" kind of guy, not because he wanted to be, but because he had to be, and this can easily evolve into a manipulative sort of attitude toward people he meets along the way. After all, if you're not going to be around someone for long, why care about their feelings? Why not just get what you can out of them before moving on (or being dragged back to the Circle)? This doesn't necessarily have to conflict with the idea of helping them as much as he can while he's there, though. Maybe helping out is a little bit of payment for the people he meets along the way. Doing what he can, like was said earlier.

[highcastle]

Evilnor wrote...
Anyway, as for the serious discussion, I definitely think Anders was a "love 'em and leave 'em" kind of guy, not because he wanted to be, but because he had to be, and this can easily evolve into a manipulative sort of attitude toward people he meets along the way. After all, if you're not going to be around someone for long, why care about their feelings? Why not just get what you can out of them before moving on (or being dragged back to the Circle)? This doesn't necessarily have to conflict with the idea of helping them as much as he can while he's there, though. Maybe helping out is a little bit of payment for the people he meets along the way. Doing what he can, like was said earlier.

I don't know if I'd say Anders didn't care about others' feelings as much as he tried to involve himself with people who wouldn't get too attached (and that he wouldn't grow too attached to). From his comments, the Circle has a casual attitude regarding sex and a very strict one on love. So when he was with other mages, they were both likely on the same page about strings and their lack of attachment. And outside the Circle...well, we know he's visited the Pearl and such. It seems probable that he flocked towards the same type of people with no expectations even there.

[kromify]

i think pre-justice anders had a very zevranish pov about love. find it pleasure where you can and don't get bogged down with feelings because the circle will only have a hold over you

femanders should be called andrea 

Modifié par kromify, 18 juin 2011 - 09:11 .

[Evilnor]

Actually, female Anders would probably still be called Anders, cuz it was never his actual name in the first place, but a comment on where his family was from.

[SurelyForth]

Now I just want to spam F!Anders:

Modifié par SurelyForth, 19 juin 2011 - 12:22 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Female Anders time eh?


by kyuubifred