57020 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

This is gonna be fun.

[quote]highcastle wrote...

Good for you. I felt nothing when I played the game, though. No emotional resonance. Ho hum, another story where I'm a hero and save the world. Another day at the office. No one cares that I lost my family, that I got my revenge, that I fell in love. [/quote]

Seriously, I could not agree on this less. I wrestled with some conflicting feelings about Duncan, only to have the Darkspawn's barbarity make those feelings look insignificant. I'll never forget when Morrigan turned on me, sending her away with haughty words only to have Alistair jump right down the Archdemon's throat and die because of ME. I thought origins was a powerful journey containing some of the most moving moments I'd ever seen in a game.

To each their own, I suppose.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
No story is completely watertight. Things were left hanging even in Origins. (OGB much?) [/quote]

I know. The difference was that what was "left hanging" didn't detract from the satisfaction of the whole. As opposed to DA:2 which spent the whole game building up the Mage/Templar dynamic...only to end the game right as that's actually starting. Using the Origins example, that's like getting the Warden all the way up to the roof to fight the Archdemon.... and then rolling the credits.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Most of those are questions that get answered later, when Anders actually knows Hawke. [/quote]

When, exactly, were these questions ever answered? (Ignoring Awakenings). No matter how long Hawke knows Anders, if he ever asks him for the details about his situation, it's off camera and we don't get the benefit of his knowledge.


[quote]highcastle wrote...
And trying to answer everything at once would result in an infodump that stops the action in its tracks. [/quote]

We both know there are ways to get information to the player besides "infodumps," and Bioware is a master of all of them. They didn't try to get us these answers. They thought we didn't need them, and the story and characters suffered for it.


[quote]highcastle wrote...
Again, to use the beloved Origins as an example, how much information did you have before having to decide between Behlen and Harrowmont? [/quote]

We knew:

- Behlen was a liar passing around fake documents to curry favor.
- Behlen was about to marry a castless woman.
- Behlen may have killed his father.
- Behlen was popular with the dwarven underclass and had the support of the Silent Sisters and the Merchants.
- Behlen supports making Dwarven society more open and flexible.
- Harrowmont was honorable, or at least, didn't ask you to do anything illegal.
- Harrowmont was (supposedly) named the King's heir as he died.
- Harrowmont was deeply conservative and doesn't support changing any of the repressive dwarven traditions regarding caste and occupation. 
- Harrowmont had the support of the noble class and that's about it.

So we knew enough. The question came down to whether or not the ends justified the means. Behlen would be a better leader for the Dwarves, but he's also a huge slimeball. Harrowmont is weak, but doesn't ask you to do anything illegal.

Never were we asked to make a coin-toss choice without any background information at all.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Yes he can. Which starts you down the rivalry path in which Anders believes he's a monster, too. He pins his opinion on Hawke's judgment, regardless of what it is, because Hawke saw him at his worst and sticks around anyway. [/quote]

Except by that point, Hawke hasn't "stuck around" anywhere. He simply agreed to help him help a friend, then stood by while Anders turned glowy and ripped some Templar appart.

I maintain that it would be a completely rational choice for Hawke, even a Hawke who is mostly sympathetic to mage plights, to hand over Anders to the templars at this point. A mage is one thing; Hawke has mages in his family so they're nothing very special. An Abomination may be something else. Especially an Abomination who has already shown himself as violent and with a questionable amount of control over his actions.

Yet Hawke can't do that. Why not? It makes more sense then selling Fenris back to Denarius, but the game will let you indulge in THAT act of completely needless cruelty and betrayal.

Oh, right, because The Plot Says So. Sigh...

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Anders isn't mentally stable. You really want to hold him to the same standards of rationality as everyone else? [/quote]

Yes, because "but he's crazy" is one of the oldest, weakest exuses for bad writing on the planet.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Personally, I believe he's relieved to have someone to confide in so he doesn't have to carry this burden alone. [/quote]

So he trusts the first person with enough self-control not to run away the instant Vengence brings the hammer down. Again, nevermind that Hawke could just be putting a brave face on him now in order to not tip him off that the Templar are on their way. A Hawke who was a decent liar could walk him right into the Gallows and hand him over.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
It is shown. It's shown in the way Anders looks at Hawke, in the tone of his voice.His relief and tentative friendship are shown. You want him to tell you explicitly all the reasons he has for trusting Hawke. That's not good writing. [/quote]

If by "all the reasons" you mean the tone of his voice, I hope you will forgive me for being unconvinced.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
As for Justice...Anders believes they are deeply entertwined. Whether that's true or not is debatable, but as he believes it, it likely prevents him from just pulling Justice out at will. And when Justice takes over, things tend to end in decapitation. So it's not surprising Anders wants to keep a lid on Justice. [/quote]

No, not surprising, but the situation between Anders and Justice is SO CONFUSING that forget answers, I'd be happy if they gave us enough information to at least RULE OUT something.


[quote]highcastle wrote...
What's that kernel of truth the Stones gave us? That's right: You can't always get what you want. [/quote]

But if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.

Sometimes, they say. Not this time.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
No one else in the clinic is armed. Go play the scene again. Keep going back there. Just poor refugees. It could be a rule Anders set up and no one ever told Hawke about. [/quote]

Because not enough of this story took place off-camera already. Put up a sign if there are no weapons allowed in the clinic. Don't risk Vengence exploding all over your patients.

EDIT: Top of the page again, will deliver picture as soon as I have another lame sketch to put up...

Modifié par DreamerM, 21 juin 2011 - 08:52 .

[highcastle]

[quote]DreamerM wrote...

This is gonna be fun.

[quote]highcastle wrote...

Good for you. I felt nothing when I played the game, though. No emotional resonance. Ho hum, another story where I'm a hero and save the world. Another day at the office. No one cares that I lost my family, that I got my revenge, that I fell in love. [/quote]

Seriously, I could not agree on this less. I wrestled with some conflicting feelings about Duncan, only to have the Darkspawn's barbarity make those feelings look insignificant. I'll never forget when Morrigan turned on me, sending her away with haughty words only to have Alistair jump right down the Archdemon's throat and die because of ME. I thought origins was a powerful journey containing some of the most moving moments I'd ever seen in a game.

To each their own, I suppose. [/quote]

That's why there are different games out there, for people who like, you know, different things. :innocent:

I wanted to feel things in Origins. My first Cousland cared deeply for his family, but when no one around him did, when his loss and pain were ignored, it made me feel as though his feelings--and thus mine--didn't matter. Thus, I checked out emotionally in the story. I wanted my feelings to be acknowledged by the other characters in the game. When they weren't, I stopped having feelings.

Contrast this with DA2, where everyone asks you about your feelings. That matters more to me. It's internal struggles versus external struggles. I'd always rather read, watch, or play something that challenges me to emphathize with a character overcoming their own fears, darkness, etc. than just fighting some ultimate evil like DAO gave us.

[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
No story is completely watertight. Things were left hanging even in Origins. (OGB much?) [/quote]

I know. The difference was that what was "left hanging" didn't detract from the satisfaction of the whole. As opposed to DA:2 which spent the whole game building up the Mage/Templar dynamic...only to end the game right as that's actually starting. Using the Origins example, that's like getting the Warden all the way up to the roof to fight the Archdemon.... and then rolling the credits. [/quote]

Not really. The point of the DA2 story line is not to "win." It's to show you how someone can get swept up in events larger than themselves, try to fix things, and fail miserably. It'd be akin to getting up to the tower to fight the Archdemon and losing. 

[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
Most of those are questions that get answered later, when Anders actually knows Hawke. [/quote]

When, exactly, were these questions ever answered? (Ignoring Awakenings). No matter how long Hawke knows Anders, if he ever asks him for the details about his situation, it's off camera and we don't get the benefit of his knowledge. [/quote]

Parts are hinted at, such as when Anders tells Hawke about being taken from his mother. Others are told explicitly, such as when Anders describes his merger with Justice. Some things are revealed in the codex, like Anders' involvement in the mage underground and when it stops. Talk to him. There's a lot to what he says and a lot of subtext to his words that you should be able to grasp if you'v ever studied basic psychology, philosophy, or literature.

[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
And trying to answer everything at once would result in an infodump that stops the action in its tracks. [/quote]

We both know there are ways to get information to the player besides "infodumps," and Bioware is a master of all of them. They didn't try to get us these answers. They thought we didn't need them, and the story and characters suffered for it. [/quote]

I got answers. They were spaced throughout the game. I really don't get what you're complaining about here. Is is that the game didn't spell things out in black and white, but rather required you to interpret what Anders says rather than take it at face value? Well, I liked that. It made me think. Thinking's good.


[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
Again, to use the beloved Origins as an example, how much information did you have before having to decide between Behlen and Harrowmont? [/quote]

We knew:

- Behlen was a liar passing around fake documents to curry favor.
- Behlen was about to marry a castless woman.
- Behlen may have killed his father.
- Behlen was popular with the dwarven underclass and had the support of the Silent Sisters and the Merchants.
- Behlen supports making Dwarven society more open and flexible.
- Harrowmont was honorable, or at least, didn't ask you to do anything illegal.
- Harrowmont was (supposedly) named the King's heir as he died.
- Harrowmont was deeply conservative and doesn't support changing any of the repressive dwarven traditions regarding caste and occupation. 
- Harrowmont had the support of the noble class and that's about it.

So we knew enough. The question came down to whether or not the ends justified the means. Behlen would be a better leader for the Dwarves, but he's also a huge slimeball. Harrowmont is weak, but doesn't ask you to do anything illegal.

Never were we asked to make a coin-toss choice without any background information at all. [/quote]

Sorry, but half those things only become evident after you pick a side. When Behlen and Harrowmont's reps come over to you, you have very little to go on. Various dwarves in the city will give you conflicting (mis)information, but you don't hear anything from the candidate's own mouths until you've already chosen a side.

[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
Yes he can. Which starts you down the rivalry path in which Anders believes he's a monster, too. He pins his opinion on Hawke's judgment, regardless of what it is, because Hawke saw him at his worst and sticks around anyway. [/quote]

Except by that point, Hawke hasn't "stuck around" anywhere. He simply agreed to help him help a friend, then stood by while Anders turned glowy and ripped some Templar appart.

I maintain that it would be a completely rational choice for Hawke, even a Hawke who is mostly sympathetic to mage plights, to hand over Anders to the templars at this point. A mage is one thing; Hawke has mages in his family so they're nothing very special. An Abomination may be something else. Especially an Abomination who has already shown himself as violent and with a questionable amount of control over his actions.

Yet Hawke can't do that. Why not? It makes more sense then selling Fenris back to Denarius, but the game will let you indulge in THAT act of completely needless cruelty and betrayal.

Oh, right, because The Plot Says So. Sigh... [/quote]

Yes, just like the Plot Said I had to be a warden in origins. When really I just wanted to go find my brother. Railroading to some extent is a part of cRPGs. There is no human DM on the other end who can roll with your in-character choices.

So now it falls to you to roleplay why Hawke would keep Anders around. Just as it fell to me to figure out why my vengeful Cousland couldn't go after Howe directly and then scour the Wilds for his brother.

[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
Anders isn't mentally stable. You really want to hold him to the same standards of rationality as everyone else? [/quote]

Yes, because "but he's crazy" is one of the oldest, weakest exuses for bad writing on the planet. [/quote]

Hepler's already stated that Anders' condition is a metaphor for bipolar disorder. Saying he's "crazy" is a copout. Giving him the traits of a real mental disorder with the manic and depressive mood swings it entails is not. Anders' mental illness was handled believably (I have several family members who are bipolar).

[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
Personally, I believe he's relieved to have someone to confide in so he doesn't have to carry this burden alone. [/quote]

So he trusts the first person with enough self-control not to run away the instant Vengence brings the hammer down. Again, nevermind that Hawke could just be putting a brave face on him now in order to not tip him off that the Templar are on their way. A Hawke who was a decent liar could walk him right into the Gallows and hand him over. [/quote]

He could. And then the story would be completely different. He doesn't, though, so Anders momentary trust is validated and he continues to place more and more reliance on Hawke's opinion of him. You need to understand that at this point, Anders is in a very low place. He just killed a friend and former lover. He revealed himself for something more (or less) than human. He can't trust the thoughts in his head as actually coming from him. So here Hawke comes, either telling him he did the right thing and thus providing him with a lifeline, or telling him he's a monster but that he's strong enough to fight it.

[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
It is shown. It's shown in the way Anders looks at Hawke, in the tone of his voice.His relief and tentative friendship are shown. You want him to tell you explicitly all the reasons he has for trusting Hawke. That's not good writing. [/quote]

If by "all the reasons" you mean the tone of his voice, I hope you will forgive me for being unconvinced. [/quote]

I suggest you study inflection and body language. They often convey more than our words do. Or watch the kiss scene with Anders. I get more from the way he pants than I do from any of his words. They convey need, restraint, and passion. And he doesn't say a thing.

[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
As for Justice...Anders believes they are deeply entertwined. Whether that's true or not is debatable, but as he believes it, it likely prevents him from just pulling Justice out at will. And when Justice takes over, things tend to end in decapitation. So it's not surprising Anders wants to keep a lid on Justice. [/quote]

No, not surprising, but the situation between Anders and Justice is SO CONFUSING that forget answers, I'd be happy if they gave us enough information to at least RULE OUT something. [/quote]

It's supposed to be confusing. That's. The. Point. If you want something black and white that supplies you with all the answers, trie Fable. Or, uh...Black and White.

[quote][quote]highcastle wrote...
No one else in the clinic is armed. Go play the scene again. Keep going back there. Just poor refugees. It could be a rule Anders set up and no one ever told Hawke about. [/quote]

Because not enough of this story took place off-camera already. Put up a sign if there are no weapons allowed in the clinic. Don't risk Vengence exploding all over your patients.
[/quote]

This is something Anders later worries about after Dissent. "What if this creature of Vengeance inside of me turns on a patient?" he asks. He shares your concerns. Of course, putting up a sign would mean advertising the clinic. Which is supposed to be secret. So possibly the no-weapons rule is word-of-mouth only.

Modifié par highcastle, 21 juin 2011 - 09:07 .

[ademska]

dreamerm those are... so many words, generally excellent words. i have so many thoughts in my head, but!

basically in the interest of brevity what i have to say boils down to:

some decisions in real life are coin-toss, you can't always gather all information before making a judgment call

idk, judging by all our exchanges and your posts in general, you'd much rather a straightforward story with little need for inference, and many of us prefer, well, pretty much the opposite. personal taste, really.

though i will say with regard to the whole no weapons allowed bit, that's a bit unreasonable to ask of a game. at the risk of sounding antagonistic, because i don't mean to be at all, sometimes it seems like you're nitpicking. a lot of your complaints are valid from the perspective of someone who wants less ambiguity, but in that first cutscene it's pretty easy to come to conclusion on why anders has his smalls done up.

DO MORE SKETCHES! i loved the last one like, so much.

[ademska]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Perhaps it isn't my place, not being directly involved with the discussion and all that, but could we please mind the tone a little bit? The atmosphere in here is getting a little toxic.

sometimes we have to air out our nasties, especially when frustrated, and this thread seems to have a nice history of evening itself out

but it's probably not my place either

edit: mm, pardon me, not to imply anyone's being nasty. i'm used to forums where tone is significantly less civil at pretty much all times.  this is almost surreal.

i'm going to adhere to better judgment for once and go the **** to bed.

Modifié par ademska, 21 juin 2011 - 09:26 .

[highcastle]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Perhaps it isn't my place, not being directly involved with the discussion and all that, but could we please mind the tone a little bit? The atmosphere in here is getting a little toxic.

Sorry. That's probably me. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but tone's so hard to convey without speech. Let's just say I'm rivaling DreamerM. At this point I should've accrued about +50 Rivalry, no? Is it time for Questioning Beliefs? Ah well, take this lovely pic inspired by A Distant Ray of Light (I've inspired art! Woot!)



by pyromaniac03

[ademska]

holy ****, nope, not going to bed. i'd assumed from your posts you write m!hawke/anders? you wanna link me up? because if you inspired that bit of gorgeousness, i want in. like, now.

eta: there it is, right in your sig. perhaps it's best i quit being a moron and hit the ol' dusty trail. in any case, congrats hi-c, you've gained a new reader

Modifié par ademska, 21 juin 2011 - 09:31 .

[highcastle]

ademska wrote...

holy ****, nope, not going to bed. i'd assumed from your posts you write m!hawke/anders? you wanna link me up? because if you inspired that bit of gorgeousness, i want in. like, now.

Ooh, is it shameless self-promotion time? I'm down! There are links in my sig, but the main fics are:

A Distant Ray of Light: Basically my novel-length take on Anders' thought process throughout DA2. With slash.

The Whole Sky Shaken: Hawke's thought process throughout the gap between Acts 2 and 3.

Plus I have a bunch of short fics on my main page.

It's totally not advertising if someone asks for the links, right guys? 

[ademska]

highcastle wrote...

ademska wrote...

holy ****, nope, not going to bed. i'd assumed from your posts you write m!hawke/anders? you wanna link me up? because if you inspired that bit of gorgeousness, i want in. like, now.

Ooh, is it shameless self-promotion time? I'm down! There are links in my sig, but the main fics are:

A Distant Ray of Light: Basically my novel-length take on Anders' thought process throughout DA2. With slash.

The Whole Sky Shaken: Hawke's thought process throughout the gap between Acts 2 and 3.

Plus I have a bunch of short fics on my main page.

It's totally not advertising if someone asks for the links, right guys? 

YESSSSSSSSSSSS

sorry, slash/fslash is so incredibly underrepresented in this fandom and it's really all i'm interested in, if i'm completely honest, and by all accounts you're an amazing author, so THANK YOU?

i'll give this the fully sober and dedicated attention it deserves after a good sleep-off. oh my god, no, seriously, i am so excited to read this. i've read (and even written) plenty of act 1-act 2 bits, filling in those delicious relationship-building narrative gaps, but an insightful look at the "downfall" is p unique, to be honest.

no shame, girl, no shame.

@elle: oh, trust me, not reading hi-c's stuff is a folly i fully intend to rectify.

never change, anders thread, you gorgeous thing.

Modifié par ademska, 21 juin 2011 - 09:44 .

[highcastle]

Lol! You'll never hear me complaining about providing more slashy goodness.

And everyone should know by now, I only snark out of love. Passionate, rivalmancing love. Although for the moment, I have to get my butt off the computer and go do stuff for my classes./le sigh. See you Anderstians later!

[kromify]

DreamerM wrote...

highcastle wrote...
Again, to use the beloved Origins as an example, how much information did you have before having to decide between Behlen and Harrowmont?

We knew:

- Behlen was a liar passing around fake documents to curry favor.
- Behlen was about to marry a castless woman.
- Behlen may have killed his father.
- Behlen was popular with the dwarven underclass and had the support of the Silent Sisters and the Merchants.
- Behlen supports making Dwarven society more open and flexible.
- Harrowmont was honorable, or at least, didn't ask you to do anything illegal.
- Harrowmont was (supposedly) named the King's heir as he died.
- Harrowmont was deeply conservative and doesn't support changing any of the repressive dwarven traditions regarding caste and occupation. 
- Harrowmont had the support of the noble class and that's about it.

So we knew enough. The question came down to whether or not the ends justified the means. Behlen would be a better leader for the Dwarves, but he's also a huge slimeball. Harrowmont is weak, but doesn't ask you to do anything illegal.

and yet it wasn't just about all these points above. to hawke it probably would be, or i suppose at least my hawke would be because i'm in the "hawke is more avatarish camp."

point is that aeducan loathes bhelen for betraying her, brosca wants whats best for her sister, cousland hates little ****s who murder entire families, and tabris i think could go either way depending on if she actually wanted to get married. (so feels relief, or see 'cousland') my mages were hard-headed and a bit mean so they swang for bhelen. mahariel is too busy pining for her clan to give it much thought.

edit because i forgot what i was getting at!!    hawke needs info to make a decision because she doesn't have a past to colour her choices - except 'family are mages and family is sacred' or 'i hate being being on the run when i'm not a mage'


because i'm making rational choices based on my beliefs and personality, hawke is my avatar. because the warden makes choices based on her experiences, she is a proper rp'd character.

phew'!!!  sorry about the wall!!

Modifié par kromify, 21 juin 2011 - 09:56 .

[ademska]

ElleMullineux wrote...

ademska wrote...

YESSSSSSSSSSSS

sorry, slash/fslash is so incredibly underrepresented in this fandom and it's really all i'm interested in, if i'm completely honest, and by all accounts you're an amazing author, so THANK YOU?

i'll give this the fully sober and dedicated attention it deserves after a good sleep-off. oh my god, no, seriously, i am so excited to read this. i've read (and even written) plenty of act 1-act 2 bits, filling in those delicious relationship-building narrative gaps, but an insightful look at the "downfall" is p unique, to be honest.

no shame, girl, no shame.

Hahaha, I think I must be in the a completely different part of the fandom to you because all the really good stuff I come across seems to be slash - both in writing and in art. I feel like the odd one out with my f!HawkexAnders!

i would say we need to switch fandom haunts, but unfortunately my big fic outlet area thing is livejournal, vomit, and it's populated by terrible-quality self-insert hawkettes pregnant with fenris's little babies. or the just-as-improbable fenris/anders.

which, i think, is very likely the reason i'm so averse to f!hawke in non-fslash situations (and also, y'know, the gay thing). where do you haunt, though? i know you've done some AMAZING stuff, and if it's at all indicative of the general quality, i'm more than happy to venture into het territory!

Modifié par ademska, 21 juin 2011 - 09:52 .

[CalJones]

Slash you say? I'm in!

Being English I tend to be asleep when the best discussions are going on, but there are many valid points being expressed in the debate above. So please continue. It is a nice change from pictures of Anders in drag or poptart-shaped kittens.

[kromify]

CalJones wrote...

Slash you say? I'm in!

Being English I tend to be asleep when the best discussions are going on, but there are many valid points being expressed in the debate above. So please continue. It is a nice change from pictures of Anders in drag or poptart-shaped kittens.

Yay england! *hi-fives*  :happy:

[ademska]

ElleMullineux wrote...

ademska wrote...
i would say we need to switch fandom haunts, but unfortunately my big fic outlet area thing is livejournal, vomit, and it's populated by terrible-quality self-insert hawkettes pregnant with fenris's little babies. or the just-as-improbable fenris/anders.

which, i think, is very likely the reason i'm so averse to f!hawke in non-fslash situations (and also, y'know, the gay thing). where do you haunt, though? i know you've done some AMAZING stuff, and if it's at all indicative of the general quality, i'm more than happy to venture into het territory!

awwwwww thanks

I'm generally on ff.net and devArt, and more recently tumblr. If you want I can PM you the links to the really good stuff. 
I'm not bothered about the orientation so long as the writing or the art is good. That's my only requirement. It just means that to get het art from the artists I like I have to commission it. Which is both a good thing (selfish, I get Hawkette + Anders,  yum!) and bad thing (Ouch my purse!).  

Edit Yay for the UK! *high-fives*

yes, please pm me stuff! i am going to bed like, right this second, because the sun is coming up, but i would very much appreciate it, thank you so much!


eta: you know, except for da2 (where i can never NOT play as default male garrett) i generally prefer to play female characters, but in fandom i find the interpretation of subjective female characters far more grating except when it comes, obviously, from excellent writers.

i'd say this stems from mary sues more than anything else, though.

Modifié par ademska, 21 juin 2011 - 10:08 .

[DreamerM]

[quote]highcastle wrote...
That's why there are different games out there, for people who like, you know, different things. [/quote]

What a concept!

[quote]highcastle wrote...
I wanted to feel things in Origins. My first Cousland cared deeply for his family, but when no one around him did, when his loss and pain were ignored, it made me feel as though his feelings--and thus mine--didn't matter.[/quote]

You know, I've always wondered what Duncan said to my!Cousland, especially if you did what mine did and try and insist on staying with her family, forcing him to finally invoke the Right of Conscription to get her out of there....

At least for a Gray Warden, there is a bigger purpose waiting for you. There's a certain amount of salvation in a quest to save the world, whether you're saving it from an Archdemon or from itself, and The Warden does both.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Thus, I checked out emotionally in the story. I wanted my feelings to be acknowledged by the other characters in the game. When they weren't, I stopped having feelings.[/quote]

Alistair will ask about your family, as will Morrigan. But considering the shorter amount of time that game covers, I can understand why any given Gray Warden would feel motivated to put their grief aside and spend a year working on saving the world, maybe afraid that once those floodgates open, there will be no closing them again.

But that's all personal!Canon. What I knew for certain was what I felt about my companions. Zevran, Wynne, Morrigan, even Oghren.... I felt like I really got to know them. I knew what drove Zevran from the Crows, why Sten hadn't resisted his arrest, why Oghren drank so much, met Wynne's former apprentice and helped her patch a hole in her life, wondered what WOULD have happened to "the girl with the beautiful golden mirror...." I understood why they were driven to help, and they meant something to me.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Contrast this with DA2, where everyone asks you about your feelings. [/quote]

Everyone asks you your opinions, which are not the same as your feelings. And they ask you even when they have no reason whatsoever to care about them, beyond that you are the Player Character. You can say this for the "I'm going to save the world" plot, at least it was there to explain WHY people cared what you said and did. Hawke is, in the end, just some guy/gal trying to live life.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
The point of the DA2 story line is not to "win." It's to show you how someone can get swept up in events larger than themselves, try to fix things, and fail miserably. It'd be akin to getting up to the tower to fight the Archdemon and losing. [/quote]

What a cheerful thought, that makes the entire game feel pointless. If this makes me a simpleton, then so be it, but I like my struggles to mean something. Even if I fail. This is like giving you a chance at choosing to join the Archdemon's side at the end of the game, and it making no difference at all on the conclusion. What becomes the point of everything? Why didn't they think we needed one?

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Parts are hinted at, such as when Anders tells Hawke about being taken from his mother. [/quote]

When did he talk about that?

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Others are told explicitly, such as when Anders describes his merger with Justice. [/quote]

He says in the vaguest terms imaginable why he did it, but he does not tell us when, where, or how it exactly happened. Nothing that might help me understand more then "well he really feels strongly about mage liberation" which I really didn't need to hear again.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Some things are revealed in the codex, like Anders' involvement in the mage underground and when it stops. [/quote]

Read every word of it hungrily. It didn't answer any of my real questions.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Talk to him. There's a lot to what he says and a lot of subtext to his words that you should be able to grasp if you'v ever studied basic psychology, philosophy, or literature.[/quote]

I have studied all three. They make the shadows deeper and darker, but no less insubstantial.

Maybe I should be plainer about what I was waiting for from Anders, Venric, Isabella and all the companions in DA:2. I wanted something like his "broken mirror moment," an event that I could use to understand why he is the way he is. The only one who kind if came close was Fenris: the drunken "anniversery" where I got to hear about how he escaped from his master was the moment that unlocked his personality for me, and I finally felt like I knew him.

I didn't get that from anybody else.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
I got answers. They were spaced throughout the game. [/quote]

Congratulations on finding them. You are steps ahead of me.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Sorry, but half those things only become evident after you pick a side. When Behlen and Harrowmont's reps come over to you, you have very little to go on. Various dwarves in the city will give you conflicting (mis)information, but you don't hear anything from the candidate's own mouths until you've already chosen a side.[/quote]

True, you do have to pick a side to get some of that information. However, you are then given the option to change sides, should you have second thoughts later. Heck, once you have the crown in your hands, it doesn't matter who you picked earlier. All that matters is what you learn, and what you are going to do with that knowledge.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Yes, just like the Plot Said I had to be a warden in origins. When really I just wanted to go find my brother. [/quote]

Morrigan has a pretty good answer for why you shouldn't go look for him,
I thought: you just plain won't find him. He could be anywhere. And after seeing the carnage the Darkspawn can cause, you finally know why this Gray Warden gig might be important.

Yes, it's a bit of off-camera RP, but it's nowhere near as demanding as what most of DA:2 requires from you. Especially if you decide your Warden is the "suffer in silence" type.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Railroading to some extent is a part of cRPGs. There is no human DM on the other end who can roll with your in-character choices. So now it falls to you to roleplay why Hawke would keep Anders around. [/quote]

Off-camera, again. Like I said, it'd be great if just one of these very important scenes might have taken place IN THE GAME.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Hepler's already stated that Anders' condition is a metaphor for bipolar disorder. [/quote]

....I was hoping it'd be a metaphor second. I was hoping it'd be a spirt possession first. We've seen them before in Dragon Age, both possession by demons (the Abomonations we kill in droves) and by benevolent spirits (Wynne and her friend). Justice being somewhere between, and more like a human with logic of his own then a pure force for good or ill, raised all kinds of dramatic potential that..... is a metaphor for being bipolar. If that's actually the case, please forgive me for calling it disapointing.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Saying he's "crazy" is a copout. [/quote]

I agree.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Giving him the traits of a real mental disorder with the manic and depressive mood swings it entails is not.[/quote]

I say if they wanted to give him a "real mental disorder" they should have done so, and not put a demon/spirit/thing in his head. Don't require me to just sit there and imagine why my!Hawke wouldn't call the Templars on a mentally-unstable Abomination who sometimes glows and rips people's heads off.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
I suggest you study inflection and body language. They often convey more than our words do. [/quote]

I am an animator. Studying inflection and body language is what I do. There's not enough individual character animation in Dragon Age to make a case that important plot points are burried in how a character stands and walks.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
Or watch the kiss scene with Anders. I get more from the way he pants than I do from any of his words. They convey need, restraint, and passion. And he doesn't say a thing.[/quote]

I'll give you that one. That kiss is hot as hell. Even if it is probably mo-cap.

[quote]highcastle wrote...
It's supposed to be confusing. That's. The. Point. If you want something black and white that supplies you with all the answers, trie Fable. Or, uh...Black and White.[/quote]

I don't need all the answers. I don't want all the answers. But I do want some assurance that there ARE answers, that they do exist, that SOMEONE thought this through and designed it to work. That's the important thing.

[quote]highcastle wrote...

This is something Anders later worries about after Dissent. "What if this creature of Vengeance inside of me turns on a patient?" he asks. He shares your concerns. Of course, putting up a sign would mean advertising the clinic. Which is supposed to be secret. So possibly the no-weapons rule is word-of-mouth only.[/quote]


I got the impression that his clinic isn't much of a secret, and that what actually keeps the Templars away is the grateful Darktown inhabitants who (off camera, of course) must circle the wagons to protect Anders whenever a Templar is spotted wandering too close to their doctor.

Either way, a sign would be no less conspicuous then a line of patients out the door.

Modifié par DreamerM, 21 juin 2011 - 11:05 .

[AndreaDraco]

Queen-of-Stuff wrote...

The drawing is very cute. Anders has a certain elven quality to his expression and composure and the beautifully-drawn scenery adds a very idyllic atmosphere to the picture. Good work!

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 21 juin 2011 - 11:22 .

[DreamerM]

highcastle wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Perhaps it isn't my place, not being directly involved with the discussion and all that, but could we please mind the tone a little bit? The atmosphere in here is getting a little toxic.

Sorry. That's probably me. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but tone's so hard to convey without speech. Let's just say I'm rivaling DreamerM. At this point I should've accrued about +50 Rivalry, no? Is it time for Questioning Beliefs?

Lemme check the codex...yep, there's a companion quest at my Safehouse. Meet me there after you finish your Herbalist's Tasks. :whistle:

[SurelyForth]

@Queen of Stuff As I couldn't post for most of yesterday afternoon due to BSN pretty much telling me to GTFO, I missed telling you how much I adore your drawing! Everything about it is fantastic, but especially his posture and demeanor. Very lovely!

And for those interested, this week's prompt is up on Manifestos Welcome.