57020 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

highcastle wrote...

Bingo. I also see the merits of the Warden story, I do. But I'm more interested in personal narratives. I'm less forest and more trees, I guess you'd say. And I liked Origins, I swear I did. I played through it about 8 times, I think, and the HN was one of my favorite backgrounds. It's just...it didn't resonate with me on the same level as Hawke's story did. It has to do with the type of story I prefer. Some people like epics. Nothing wrong with that. DAO was definitely epic. DA2 felt more personal. Ergo, I liked it better.

I'm not sure if i agree with this one -- that is, i don't think the DAO plot is any less personal than DA2. The narrative is more epic in scope maybe, but it's still very much about the PC's journey and how it shapes them (and how they shape the world around them in the process)  When it comes to the HN the focus may be on different aspect than the player would think, given the initial setup... but still it doesn't make it any less personal, imo.

In fact part of why i felt more disconnected from DA2 was how it glossed over aspects which were done with more personal detail in DAO -- forming of friendships with the companions e.g, which in DA2 was largely non-existent. Or at least presented in way which created such impression.

edit: eew, ToP. Here, Anders from http://soniacarreras.deviantart.com/  Dunno if it was already posted but it has a cat, so pfft.

Modifié par tmp7704, 21 juin 2011 - 04:23 .

[beckaliz]

tmp7704 wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

For me, I had a hard time with my Warden just staring up at whoever she was talking to with the same blank expression.

This one always astounds me to hear, because in most dialogues all you see is the back of the Warden's head. Meaning, he/she could be doing any expression you feel like imagining, to fit the tone of selected dialogue.

Oddly enough you see the blank expression on Hawke's face far more often than that, because he/she keeps neutral expression while you select your lines, and camera switches focus on his/her face every second line of the dialogue...

That is true, yes, but the problem for me is that you switch from the Warden's blank stare right to watching the NPC talk. You watch Hawke speak, because Hawke is voiced. I don't mind him/her staring while you make up your mind. I usually have a good imagination, but the Warden's stare is just a bit more blank than Hawke's, to me anyway. Maybe I made my Reyonii look a little too odd. She's not exactly pretty, though if we see our Warden converted to the new art style, she'll look better that way. [[EDIT: Er, she's an ELF, so she already almost looks like the new style of elf.]]

I dunno, I just feel like something was lacking in my connection to my Warden, and maybe I can't quite put my finger on it well enough to articulate it.

But, Anders! I love Hawke's expression when s/he says, "Want a sandwich?" Like, hmm, that was some great sex. "I'm hungry! You want something? :D"

Modifié par beckaliz, 21 juin 2011 - 04:30 .

[berelinde]

Maaia wrote...

I just wanted to point out that at the very beginning of Anders recruitment quest, after Hawke visits Lirene's shop, some Ferelden refugees corner Hawke & friends outside the door because they think Hawke is a threat to Anders. If convinced otherwise, the leader basically says, "Oh sorry, from the looks of your clothes we thought you were from Hightown." So, obviously, Hawke & friends have a different look about them from average Ferelden refugees or even Carta/Coterie members. I figured they stood out pretty obviously in Anders clinic, and thus he felt more threatened than he normally did by thugs or gang members. Kinda like having the ATF or FBI show up at your rave or something. Ha.

Cool discussions invariably happen while I'm either at work or asleep. It's inevitable, really.

The first thing I thought when I read this was "How do you know he's a king?"/"His clothes haven't got s*** on them."

Actually, that's probably close to the truth. Apart from an Act 2 visit from Bran the Seneschal (depending on who's in your party), Anders does not get a lot of well-dressed clients. That, or Hawke smells like Destiny. (That's a new fragrance line by Flemeth, in case you're curious. Patents pending.)

[highcastle]

tmp7704 wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Bingo. I also see the merits of the Warden story, I do. But I'm more interested in personal narratives. I'm less forest and more trees, I guess you'd say. And I liked Origins, I swear I did. I played through it about 8 times, I think, and the HN was one of my favorite backgrounds. It's just...it didn't resonate with me on the same level as Hawke's story did. It has to do with the type of story I prefer. Some people like epics. Nothing wrong with that. DAO was definitely epic. DA2 felt more personal. Ergo, I liked it better.

I'm not sure if i agree with this one -- that is, i don't think the DAO plot is any less personal than DA2. The narrative is more epic in scope maybe, but it's still very much about the PC's journey and how it shapes them (and how they shape the world around them in the process)  When it comes to the HN the focus may be on different aspect than the player would think, given the initial setup... but still it doesn't make it any less personal, imo.

In fact part of why i felt more disconnected from DA2 was how it glossed over aspects which were done with more personal detail in DAO -- forming of friendships with the companions e.g, which in DA2 was largely non-existent. Or at least presented in way which created such impression.

That's where mileage varies and such. I felt like DAO glossed over a lot of would-be personal moments. And I think part of it is because of the variety of origin stories themselves. Since there were so many, they couldn't get the impact they deserved. I mentioned the HM already, but there are other examples. The DN also had a revenge angle (seriously; you left me in the Deep Roads to die? And with dwarven politics being so bloody, why am I not allowed to go back and try for the throne?). The mage had the connection with Jowan (so all I can do is let him our of his cell or wait to have him killed? But he's supposed to be my best friend. Or at least a friend. And he betrayed me. Why does no one--including Jowan himself--seem to care?). It goes on.

In short, the origins felt like the hooks to different stories, but they all went to the same place and those opening connections ended up not really mattering.

I also never felt a disconnect with the companions in DA2. I felt like the relationships evolved gradually. Granted, the nature of time skips means there are some gaps in the evolution that could be jarring if you didn't remind yourself 1 year or 3 years had passed. But knowing this and using the codex to fill in parts of that missing time meant I never felt like the relationships were strained or forced or anything. I think part of this also has to do with the number of talks we had throughout each act. I always felt like the conversations had a good progression to them, unlike in DAO where my first playthrough saw me exhausting everybody's dialogue options very early on and thus feeling lonely for the later part of the game. I learned from this and paced myself better in subsequent runs, but that first time really left an impression.

Could DA2 have been better with more talks with companions? Absolutely. But then, this is true of any BioWare game. I like the companions. I find them fascinating. I don't think I'd ever be satisfied by the already pretty decent amounts of talking time they get (especially in comparison to games not made by BioWare).

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

Just so y'all know, Yami is the most awesome:
-snippy-

Aw, thanks, I do like being awesome. Although now I kind of wish you got to see Anders in different costumes in the game. Like, whenever he's not in Hawke's party, you see him running around in the background in some absurd get up.

[tmp7704]

highcastle wrote...

I always felt like the conversations had a good progression to them, unlike in DAO where my first playthrough saw me exhausting everybody's dialogue options very early on and thus feeling lonely for the later part of the game. I learned from this and paced myself better in subsequent runs, but that first time really left an impression.

Ahh; i was keeping my DAO conversation limited to somewhat steady pace of 1-2 topics every now and then, so as result didn't really run out of things until very late in the game, so didn't get that sort of first time impression. At the same time, while DA2 offered approach which overall worked similar, it had these artificial constraints where i couldn't actually really pick the topic, or tackle more than one in single session if i felt like it and/or it made sense. And it even was calling shots when i could have these conversations. So that's why i tend to think less of it -- it gave me no benefits and only drawbacks. But that's largely down to the playstyle it seems.

[SurelyForth]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Aw, thanks, I do like being awesome. Although now I kind of wish you got to see Anders in different costumes in the game. Like, whenever he's not in Hawke's party, you see him running around in the background in some absurd get up.

Yessss! I think that...I might use that. It's too brilliant not to.

[beckaliz]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I had an odd thought once when I was drunk, of Isabela accidentally coming across Anders' panty-shrine dedicated to Hawke and then blackmailing him into running through the city of Kirkwall in fetishgear for her amusement.

Sweet ANDRASTE that's disturbing. D:

[DreamerM]

[quote]FieryDove wrote...

I'm sure Janders gets all glowy when thugs come knocking as well.
[/quote]

It seems to me like Glowing in front of the patients would be the fastest way ever to freak them the hell out and bring the Templars calling. I can't imagine Anders would take that risk.

[quote]ElleMullineux wrote...

Just wanted to address this one point, the writers know the answers. [/quote]

I hope you're right. In the case of Anders, I really have my doubts. Not only do we get no answers to the really importent questions, the game doesn't even acknowledge that those questions exist, that we might actually need to know MORE about Anders then he's bipolar and into Mage Liberation. It's discouraging.

[quote]ElleMullineux wrote...
For the depth and level of world building there have to be parameters for the important things.[/quote]

I hope so.

[quote]ElleMullineux wrote...
That
they don't want to share them, or to tip their hat at this early point
of what could feasibly be a very long running game series is their
choice. It might be frustrating as hell, but I'm confident over the
coming years a lot of what we're confused about will be explained, and I
honestly hope they keep crafting this world, leading us down blind
alleys, and leaving us with more questions than answers.
[/quote]

Maybe Justice will merge with another mage revolutionary in the next game and we'll get some answers THEN. My curiosity will be satisfied someday. I will remain hopeful.

[quote]highcastle wrote...

[quote]DreamerM wrote...

Sorry.
That's probably me. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but tone's so
hard to convey without speech. Let's just say I'm rivaling DreamerM. At
this point I should've accrued about +50 Rivalry, no? Is it time for
Questioning Beliefs?
[/quote]

Lemme check the codex...yep, there's a companion quest at my Safehouse. Meet me there after you finish your Herbalist's Tasks. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]
[/quote]

Alright,
finished my other quests. Is it going to be wall-slamming and glowy, or
furiously writing out our manifestos? I'm down either way. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

[/quote]

Did you remember to flirt with me at least twice? Is my Rivalry +80? Wall-slamming it is. Get over here!

[beckaliz]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

Sweet ANDRASTE that's disturbing. D:

What can I say? My brain only works right when I'm drunk

That reminds me, I should DRAW while drunk more. I've only actually done it once... Er, maybe twice, though one time it was just a stupid yaoi sketch at a friend's place I did to be a punk. ^^;;

...............................


Heeeey in case anyone's interested, I have the version of "I'm Not Calling You a Liar" from the end credits... I trimmed out the last half of it which was really just another song from the soundtrack album. I couldn't find any other version of it, and I just don't care to listen to the WHOLE thing.

Relevance to this thread: It made me bawl like a baby after Anders romance-execution ending. And it sounds more mournful than the "Between Two Lungs" version.
Florence and the Machine - "I'm Not Calling You a Liar (Varric's theme)" (It really doesn't seem to work for Varric for me, TBH. So it's my Anders tragedy theme.)

Modifié par beckaliz, 21 juin 2011 - 06:02 .

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Aw, thanks, I do like being awesome. Although now I kind of wish you got to see Anders in different costumes in the game. Like, whenever he's not in Hawke's party, you see him running around in the background in some absurd get up.

Yessss! I think that...I might use that. It's too brilliant not to.

Hawke: Was that Anders?
Varric: What? No. That was just one of the Chantry priests.
Hawke: In Darktown?
Varric: She was probably just slumming it. Priests slum too.
Hawke: But... stubble!
Varric: Look Hawke, I know you only have eyes for Blondie, but I think you took one to many hits to the head that last fight.

[beckaliz]

@Queen-of-Stuff: Did you manage to slog through my Twilight synopsis? Hehehe. x3



Has anyone posted this yet? XD It's adorable.


http://criz.deviantart.com/]Whoops, sauce. ~criz on deviantART[/url]

Modifié par beckaliz, 21 juin 2011 - 06:18 .

[ForgeDark]

highcastle wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Bingo. I also see the merits of the Warden story, I do. But I'm more interested in personal narratives. I'm less forest and more trees, I guess you'd say. And I liked Origins, I swear I did. I played through it about 8 times, I think, and the HN was one of my favorite backgrounds. It's just...it didn't resonate with me on the same level as Hawke's story did. It has to do with the type of story I prefer. Some people like epics. Nothing wrong with that. DAO was definitely epic. DA2 felt more personal. Ergo, I liked it better.

I'm not sure if i agree with this one -- that is, i don't think the DAO plot is any less personal than DA2. The narrative is more epic in scope maybe, but it's still very much about the PC's journey and how it shapes them (and how they shape the world around them in the process)  When it comes to the HN the focus may be on different aspect than the player would think, given the initial setup... but still it doesn't make it any less personal, imo.

In fact part of why i felt more disconnected from DA2 was how it glossed over aspects which were done with more personal detail in DAO -- forming of friendships with the companions e.g, which in DA2 was largely non-existent. Or at least presented in way which created such impression.

That's where mileage varies and such. I felt like DAO glossed over a lot of would-be personal moments. And I think part of it is because of the variety of origin stories themselves. Since there were so many, they couldn't get the impact they deserved. I mentioned the HM already, but there are other examples. The DN also had a revenge angle (seriously; you left me in the Deep Roads to die? And with dwarven politics being so bloody, why am I not allowed to go back and try for the throne?). The mage had the connection with Jowan (so all I can do is let him our of his cell or wait to have him killed? But he's supposed to be my best friend. Or at least a friend. And he betrayed me. Why does no one--including Jowan himself--seem to care?). It goes on.

In short, the origins felt like the hooks to different stories, but they all went to the same place and those opening connections ended up not really mattering.

That is exactly why I prefer DA2 - DAO had too many opening stories, which meant the origin story couldn't really continue further into the game because there were too many options and potential dialogue stories. I liked the personal aspect of DA2, but on reruns I find it harder to make 'different Hawkes' whereas in origins I did feel my characters were more distinct but more shallow. No one else in DAO cared how my character acted, except in the more extreme choice moments such as desecrating the Urn and then it nearly always leads to you having to kill someone. The only one I like is Alistair's reaction to what happens in Redcliffe, and I wish there had been more of that in DAO (I do still love that game though!). The choices you have in DAO are bigger than one person, one person couldn't chose the king of the dwarves, or the king of Ferelden alone but in the game you get to make both choices without anyone really questioning it. In DA2 it does matter how I act, it changes the lives of my companions - even if this means the actions I can make are more restricted. 

People who hate the choices in DA2 I think are people who want to play an unrealistic big hero, whereas I want to play someone more real - e.g. you can choose to save the Starkhaven mages but in the end you can't decide their fate because you aren't in control of the world. So the outcome is the same, but I don't hate that.

[tmp7704]

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

No one else in DAO cared how my character acted, except in the more extreme choice moments such as desecrating the Urn and then it nearly always leads to you having to kill someone.

Ehh, not really?

* Morrigan disapproves: -5
* Morrigan disapproves: -3
* Morrigan disapproves: -10

that's the most obvious example of course, but pretty much all companions had reactions and/or comments to stuff you were doing, both positive and negative (aside maybe fthe chantry board filler quests). Quite a lot of complaints about DAO companions was actually about how they dared to have opinions about the player's actions and how that was supposed to be them "whining" about these choices.

[ForgeDark]

tmp7704 wrote...

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

No one else in DAO cared how my character acted, except in the more extreme choice moments such as desecrating the Urn and then it nearly always leads to you having to kill someone.

Ehh, not really?

* Morrigan disapproves: -5
* Morrigan disapproves: -3
* Morrigan disapproves: -10

that's the most obvious example of course, but pretty much all companions had reactions and/or comments to stuff you were doing, both positive and negative (aside maybe fthe chantry board filler quests). Quite a lot of complaints about DAO companions was actually about how they dared to have opinions about the player's actions and how that was supposed to be them "whining" about these choices.

Except that Morrigan acted the same to you regardless,  you just didn't get as many 'get to know you questions' if you were bad rep with someone. Then again if you showered her with gifts and then it really would make no difference. I'm not saying that DAOs system was bad, I love DAO, I just prefer the way DA2 does it since a character disapproving with you actually makes them act differently. To make it more on topic to this thread - I've never rivalmanced Anders but from what people say on this thread it is very different to being friends.

[SurelyForth]

My new favorite Aimo art:



They are my BroTP.

[leggywillow]

SurelyForth wrote...

My new favorite Aimo art:

::snip::

They are my BroTP.

That's what made me so sad in my "FOR SCIENCE!" playthrough where Hawke had to fight Anders.  I think I've written about it before in here because it was so damn poetic.  Everyone had low health, and I had Hawke rush in to try and finish Anders off before he went down (hehehehehehe).  Anders froze her in place, and then was literally raising his staff for a killing blow when he fell over backwards with Varric's arrow in his chest.  It was very poignant, thinking about how Varric had been Anders' only other friend besides Hawke all those years and then he was forced to kill him.

;_;

[highcastle]

DreamerM wrote...
Did you remember to flirt with me at least twice? Is my Rivalry +80? Wall-slamming it is. Get over here!

Dammit, I knew I should've given you that amulet!

[SurelyForth]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

That's what made me so sad in my "FOR SCIENCE!" playthrough where Hawke had to fight Anders.  I think I've written about it before in here because it was so damn poetic.  Everyone had low health, and I had Hawke rush in to try and finish Anders off before he went down (hehehehehehe).  Anders froze her in place, and then was literally raising his staff for a killing blow when he fell over backwards with Varric's arrow in his chest.  It was very poignant, thinking about how Varric had been Anders' only other friend besides Hawke all those years and then he was forced to kill him.

;_;

It can be even worse - you can get both Isabela and Varric to fight and kill Merrill, if she decides to defend the mages against you, and she was their adorable little sister/daughter figure. I mean, dude. Even if Hawke's their friend and all, they shouldn't agree to do that

 to both of those scenarios.

And, yeah. I really think they should be able to tell Hawke to **** off before the cut down their friends. Fenris scything Anders? Makes sense. But Varric killing any of the other companions breaks my heart.

[DreamerM]

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

Except that Morrigan acted the same to you regardless,  you just didn't get as many 'get to know you questions' if you were bad rep with someone.

Letting your approval fall too far could result in everyone (excluding your fellow Gray Warden who can't leave because of Plot Reasons) either attacking you or just leaving you in the dirt. Keeping approval high avoids those fights.

eyeofhorus87 wrote...
Then again if you showered her with gifts and then it really would make no difference.

More gamers then I thought actually made this mistake, both with Morrigan and Leilianna: they gift her approval up to 100% and then wonder why they can't romance her. The only way to start a romance with those characters is to talk to them constantly, keep their approval high, and flirt when the option appears.

eyeofhorus87 wrote...
I'm not saying that DAOs system was bad, I love DAO, I just prefer the way DA2 does it since a character disapproving with you actually makes them act differently.

As opposed to attacking you or just leaving you to fight your impossible battle alone. Here's the thing, I never understood why a character whom Hawke has been nothing but harsh ahd mean towards for the entire game would, for Plot Reasons, still hang around him, come when he calls, go where he tells them and take his opinions seriously.

The fact that at the end when the parties divide along loyalties, the Plot (and Balancing) Reasons can result in things like Anders fighting for the Templars, Fenris defending Mages, or Aveline going rogue.... somehow doesn't seem as convincing as Leiliana turning on you for defiling the most sacred artifact in existence, or Sten demanding you prove your worth as a warrior before he'll follow you on what he considers a useless wild goose chase. I simply don't know WHY Hawke means so much to these people. Even Flemeth decreed "the world will shake before you" and I never felt like Hawke lived up to that.

[Kawamura]

beckaliz wrote...

@Queen-of-Stuff: Did you manage to slog through my Twilight synopsis? Hehehe. x3



Has anyone posted this yet? XD It's adorable.


http://criz.deviantart.com/]Whoops, sauce. ~criz on deviantART[/url]

OH GOD SO CUTE.