57020 réponses à ce sujet

[nenosronhir]

MorningBird wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I highly doubt he would have told anyone about the plan because he wouldn't want word to get out. The more people know about it all the more chance of it being discovered so I'm going to guess he didn't tell anyone. He couldn't even tell Hawke. So yes, he did do it on his own(with a little help from you).

I do as well, but that's not what you said before.

"He never asked any of the other mages what they thought"

I'm sure he asked them several times what they thought, what they'd prefer, etc... I agree that he probably didn't come right out and say, "I'm planning on exploding the chantry.  Thoughts?" but you can still ask mages what they think on a matter without getting them involved in your schemes.

Doesn't Anders mention at one point by Act III that the mage underground is in shambles, completely disbanded because of Meredith's crackdowns?

Edit: Anders for top (with one of my favourite lines)!

Modifié par nenosronhir, 22 mars 2011 - 08:27 .

[nyxocity]

Thanks for the links to videos, everyone. Of course that means I spent the last 40 minutes watching Anders vid after Anders vid, which has been the best use of my time at work today so far

[Ninche]

I think given the choice between a horrible war that might result in our freedom and the illusion of peace in which we continue to be silently oppressed and mistreated and hated, most people would choose to keep putting up with oppresion. We are all scared of change and definitely scared of death. If someone forces us into such a thing we would hate them. But if we acchieve freedom, even in a hundred years, it would have been worth it, ultimately.

[SurelyForth]

silver-crescent wrote...

Well maybe it turned out bad, but he definitely seemed like he was enjoying the journey. I didn't get the Blackmarsh convo though. But I did get the "I had a friend like you once..." one now that I think about it.

He mentions that he hates the Deep Roads a lot! That's something.

I just think he's so ready to move on from being a Warden. Even if he did enjoy it during Awakening, the aspect he liked the most (being relatively free) was taken from him. Also, Warden secrets and stuff. Since he won't divulge why the Joining is so unpleasant (and his face...so adorably expressive when he won't), I doubt he feels ok mentioning some of the more Warden-specific details.

[Souris]

nenosronhir wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I highly doubt he would have told anyone about the plan because he wouldn't want word to get out. The more people know about it all the more chance of it being discovered so I'm going to guess he didn't tell anyone. He couldn't even tell Hawke. So yes, he did do it on his own(with a little help from you).

I do as well, but that's not what you said before.

"He never asked any of the other mages what they thought"

I'm sure he asked them several times what they thought, what they'd prefer, etc... I agree that he probably didn't come right out and say, "I'm planning on exploding the chantry.  Thoughts?" but you can still ask mages what they think on a matter without getting them involved in your schemes.

Doesn't Anders mention at one point by Act III that the mage underground is in shambles, completely disbanded because of Meredith's crackdowns?

Edit: Anders for top (with one of my favourite lines)!

*snip*

Ugh. Love that line. He's so snarky!

[upsettingshorts]

MorningBird wrote...

"He never asked any of the other mages what they thought"

I'm just gonna quote this because it means a great deal to my interpretation of his character and how I feel about him in general.

He made a decision on behalf of people who don't know him over whom he has no authority whose lives he has unilaterally decided to change in a tragic and violent way.  The ultimate righteousness of his cause isn't relevant to me for mainly this reason.

If Anders is comparable to another character in terms of simply trying to alter the lives of others to best suit his particular worldview and conscience in Dragon Age 2, it's Sister Petrice.  Both viewed the status quo as an intolerable injustice that moderates needed to be forced to come around to understanding through fear and violence.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[silver-crescent]

Ninche wrote...

I think given the choice between a horrible war that might result in our freedom and the illusion of peace in which we continue to be silently oppressed and mistreated and hated, most people would choose to keep putting up with oppresion. We are all scared of change and definitely scared of death. If someone forces us into such a thing we would hate them. But if we acchieve freedom, even in a hundred years, it would have been worth it, ultimately.

And the thing is it wasn't just being oppressed, mistreated and hated. Mages were also being killed left and right, both literally and by being made tranquil

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

"He never asked any of the other mages what they thought"

I'm just gonna quote this because it means a great deal to my interpretation of his character and how I feel about him in general.

He made a decision on behalf of people who don't know him over whom he has no authority whose lives he has unilaterally decided to change in a tragic and violent way.  The ultimate righteousness of his cause isn't relevant to me for mainly this reason.

If Anders is comparable to another character in terms of simply trying to alter the lives of others to best suit his particular worldview and conscience in Dragon Age 2, it's Sister Petrice.  Both viewed the status quo as an intolerable injustice that moderates needed to be forced to come around to understanding through fear and violence.  

Except the Circles did indeed rise.  He must have done something right -- well, right in his mind.  If most mages thought he was crazy, wouldn't the Circles be throwing themselves at the feet of the Templars?  Throwing up the "WE'RE NOT WITH HIM WE SWEAR" sign?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 mars 2011 - 08:38 .

[Ninche]

Hah what would you do if they turned someone you loved tranquil?

[upsettingshorts]

In Kirkwall the mages were given a choice in that moment between rise up or die. Anders forced that choice upon them in an instant.

Elsewhere the fallout from what happened there will be felt, even in Circles where the Templars are relatively lenient and the mages lives relatively tolerable. Yet they will be engulfed in the war as well.

I think Orsino's immediate reaction to what Anders' did is telling. So telling that I'm surprised it isn't brought up constantly. The man is horrified.

[Ninche]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

"He never asked any of the other mages what they thought"

I'm just gonna quote this because it means a great deal to my interpretation of his character and how I feel about him in general.

He made a decision on behalf of people who don't know him over whom he has no authority whose lives he has unilaterally decided to change in a tragic and violent way.  The ultimate righteousness of his cause isn't relevant to me for mainly this reason.

If Anders is comparable to another character in terms of simply trying to alter the lives of others to best suit his particular worldview and conscience in Dragon Age 2, it's Sister Petrice.  Both viewed the status quo as an intolerable injustice that moderates needed to be forced to come around to understanding through fear and violence.  

Except the Circles did indeed rise.  He must have done something right -- well, right in his mind.  If most mages thought he was crazy, wouldn't the Circles be throwing themselves at the feet of the Templars?

It's not just the Circles, it's also a templar uprising - not all of them are mindless mage haters, and alot of them realise what the chantry is doing to them and see the error in their believes. Perhaps templars could see the good in mages more than prdinary people could since they generally live and train around them. It's a very interesting dinamic.

[MorningBird]

nenosronhir wrote...

Doesn't Anders mention at one point by Act III that the mage underground is in shambles, completely disbanded because of Meredith's crackdowns?

For some reason, I thought that was actually in/at the end of Act II.  I'm probably wrong though. xD

My only point was that Anders lived in Kirkwall for 7-8 years and was a part of (and well connected to) an apostate underground.  He had other friends and associates who were mages.  In those 7-8 years, I'm sure the subject of the chantry, templars, mage freedom, 'what should we do?', and 'what would be best?' came up often.

@Shorts: I do want to say, that that is a fair interpretation of the events.  Not necessarily one I agree with (I want to see the ramifications of Anders actions before really deciding, though I am pro mage and pro circle reform... two things that don't always go together) but definitely valid.

Modifié par MorningBird, 22 mars 2011 - 08:45 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In Kirkwall the mages were given a choice in that moment between rise up or die. Anders forced that choice upon them in an instant.

Elsewhere the fallout from what happened there will be felt, even in Circles where the Templars are relatively lenient and the mages lives relatively tolerable. Yet they will be engulfed in the war as well.

I think Orsino's immediate reaction to what Anders' did is telling. So telling that I'm surprised it isn't brought up constantly. The man is horrified.

Except in the Templar ending, when you quell the mage threat in Kirkwall, the Circles rise up because they see what the Templars were capable of doing in their tyranny.  If they were really were not for Anders's cause, would they not just say "Okay, that's good!  You stopped the madmen!  Please don't kill us!"

Orsino was a coward, too, with a lot to hide.  Anders unwittingly exposed it.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[leggywillow]

nenosronhir wrote...

LOL, I loved this line.  He looked just moments away from whipping out his manifesto to read some choice parts to Ketojan.

Anders: You know, I think there's something in my manifesto that relates to this... ::paper shuffling::
Party: ::groans::
Ketojan: Uhh... what is this manifesto?
Hawke: His 500-page diatribe about mage abuse.  We may be here a while.  Once he starts reading, he tends to get into it.
Ketojan: OH MY LOOK AT THE TIME, I HAVE QUN-Y THINGS TO BE DOING ::explodes into flames::

(Also... "whipping out his manifesto" indeed.  ::snickers:: )

[SurelyForth]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

"He never asked any of the other mages what they thought"

I'm just gonna quote this because it means a great deal to my interpretation of his character and how I feel about him in general.

He made a decision on behalf of people who don't know him over whom he has no authority whose lives he has unilaterally decided to change in a tragic and violent way.  The ultimate righteousness of his cause isn't relevant to me for mainly this reason.

If Anders is comparable to another character in terms of simply trying to alter the lives of others to best suit his particular worldview and conscience in Dragon Age 2, it's Sister Petrice.  Both viewed the status quo as an intolerable injustice that moderates needed to be forced to come around to understanding must be changed through fear and violence.  

But Anders tried for a really long time, especially considering his possession, to do it "the right way." The Mage Underground, working with Hawke, running his clinic. It wasn't until it was obvious that nothing was going to change at all that he decided to force it to change.

And my understanding was that Petrice wanted to maintain the status quo to keep the faithful from converting to the Qun. Basically, she wanted to prove that the Qunari were monsters because she couldn't handle the idea that anyone would turn from the Maker.

[nyxocity]

leggywillow wrote...

ETA:

Aeowyn wrote...
Wasn't he sent to the Chantry when he was 13?

I think so, but he didn't start taking it seriously until recently.  If you go find that short story David Gaider wrote for him, he talks about partying and women a lot.  Made me sadface.

I don't think I'll ever get Seb's Anders warning talk.  He and Hawke are firmly "meh" about each other in my plays.  Regardless of how much you like or dislike Sebastian, he's simply not as cool as Varric.  That's a fact.  And one archer rogue in the party is plenty.

It always makes me giggle when he's trying to get Hawke to kill Anders and says "What if I'd been in there? Would you still be waffling then?"  I can imagine Hawke saying "Look dude, who are you again?"

I thought Seb was dull but okay, except for how I had to keep chugging over the Chantry to talk to him about his indecision 50 million times. He actually really liked my Hawke, was completely 100% in the friendzone. And then when everything went down with Anders, it was like:

Sebastian: What if it was me in there?
Hawke: ... Someone's got an over-inflated sense of self-importance.
Sebastian: I'm gonna go tell on you and bring back my army.
Hawke: Oh NOW you want to be a prince and lead your people into war. *muttering* Wishy-washy, self-aggrandizing... 

For someone who partied like a wild child (at the age of 13? ), he strikes me as incredibly naive and immature.

Modifié par thenyxie, 22 mars 2011 - 08:46 .

[upsettingshorts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Orsino was a coward, too, with a lot to hide.  Anders unwittingly exposed it.

Should have guessed the moderates would be labeled cowards in response.

Just as anyone who didn't agree with Sister Petrice in the Chantry were probably cowards too.

[Miri1984]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

"He never asked any of the other mages what they thought"

I'm just gonna quote this because it means a great deal to my interpretation of his character and how I feel about him in general.

He made a decision on behalf of people who don't know him over whom he has no authority whose lives he has unilaterally decided to change in a tragic and violent way.  The ultimate righteousness of his cause isn't relevant to me for mainly this reason.

If Anders is comparable to another character in terms of simply trying to alter the lives of others to best suit his particular worldview and conscience in Dragon Age 2, it's Sister Petrice.  Both viewed the status quo as an intolerable injustice that moderates needed to be forced to come around to understanding through fear and violence.  

I disagree here, Sister Petrice's was attempting to force a war with the Qunari, who WEREN'T in Kirkwall oppressing and killing the local population, they were in Kirkwall for a totally different reason. Petrice saw them as a threat because they threatened her faith - people were VOLUNTARILY turning to the Qun, and so she believed the qunari had to be killed.

Anders made a decision for people who may not have agreed with him, true, but those people WERE being systematically abused and killed, no matter what they thought of their situation. I know it's crude and simple to say "but his cause was just and hers wasn't" but in this case it's true. Her cause was misguided and wrong, despite the fact that she thought it was right. His cause aimed to correct an injustice that had stood for centuries.

[YamiSnuffles]

leggywillow wrote...

nenosronhir wrote...

LOL, I loved this line.  He looked just moments away from whipping out his manifesto to read some choice parts to Ketojan.

Anders: You know, I think there's something in my manifesto that relates to this... ::paper shuffling::
Party: ::groans::
Ketojan: Uhh... what is this manifesto?
Hawke: His 500-page diatribe about mage abuse.  We may be here a while.  Once he starts reading, he tends to get into it.
Ketojan: OH MY LOOK AT THE TIME, I HAVE QUN-Y THINGS TO BE DOING ::explodes into flames::

(Also... "whipping out his manifesto" indeed.  ::snickers:: )

Snerk. Seriously though, I loved this scene. I was so sad when my husband played through this part without Anders. I missed his righteous indignation. What can I say? I do indeed love when he gets all hot-headed revolutionary.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Orsino was a coward, too, with a lot to hide.  Anders unwittingly exposed it.

Should have guessed the moderates would be labeled cowards in response.

Just as anyone who didn't agree with Sister Petrice in the Chantry were probably cowards too.

Moderate?  He was covering up a murderer who tortured and maimed women for his own sick experiments.  Providing him material.  Not to mention that he was a blood mage.

I fail to see how he was a moderate in this.  He was teaching others blood magic.  When the templars charged into the Circle, all the mages were turning into abominations and using blood magic. Meredith did have her reasons for suspicion.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 mars 2011 - 08:48 .

[upsettingshorts]

SurelyForth wrote...

But Anders tried for a really long time, especially considering his possession, to do it "the right way." The Mage Underground, working with Hawke, running his clinic. It wasn't until it was obvious that nothing was going to change at all that he decided to force it to change.

I don't care what he tried, that isn't a mitigating circumstance.  I don't even care what his motives were, or what his overall goals might lead to.   People assume I gleefully support the Templars when I make these kinds of arguments so I ought to put it out there that I don't.  The ends (finally, war!) simply do not justify the means.  You could say, "Well, mage freedom is the ends!"  But it isn't, victory isn't assured - all that is assured is war and death. 

Anders believes that that is preferable to the status quo but he didn't have the right to make that call for every mage in Thedas.  No interpretation of DA2's story as presented would lead me to believe that he does.

SurelyForth wrote...

And my understanding was that Petrice wanted to maintain the status quo to keep the faithful from converting to the Qun. Basically, she wanted to prove that the Qunari were monsters because she couldn't handle the idea that anyone would turn from the Maker.

The status quo is there are Qunari in Kirkwall converting people.  She wanted to change that by expelling the Qunari by any means necessary, namely by removing moderates and appeasers from the equation by forcing them to make a choice after orchestrating bold, divisive events.  Just like Anders.

RinjiRenee wrote...

Moderate?  He was covering up a murderer who tortured and maimed women for his own sick experiments.  Providing him material.  Not to mention that he was a blood mage.

He was a moderate on the position of the Templar and Mage conflict in Kirkwall.  His motivations for having that position and agenda are not relevant to me, though they would be to my Hawke for obvious reasons.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

upsettingshorts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Moderate?  He was covering up a murderer who tortured and maimed women for his own sick experiments.  Providing him material.  Not to mention that he was a blood mage.

He was a moderate on the position of the Templar and Mage conflict in Kirkwall.  His motivations for having that position and agenda are not relevant to me, though they would be to my Hawke for obvious reasons.

Why did you think that he didn't want Meredith to search the Circle?  Because she would find EXACTLY what she was suspecting all along.

[nenosronhir]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

"He never asked any of the other mages what they thought"

I'm just gonna quote this because it means a great deal to my interpretation of his character and how I feel about him in general.

He made a decision on behalf of people who don't know him over whom he has no authority whose lives he has unilaterally decided to change in a tragic and violent way.  The ultimate righteousness of his cause isn't relevant to me for mainly this reason.

If Anders is comparable to another character in terms of simply trying to alter the lives of others to best suit his particular worldview and conscience in Dragon Age 2, it's Sister Petrice.  Both viewed the status quo as an intolerable injustice that moderates needed to be forced to come around to understanding through fear and violence.

Hrm.

As someone said above: given the choice, most mages would have likely chosen to remain oppressed (with the exception of the ones in Kirkwall, who are suffering far worse fates than any other Circles across Thedas). Mages, from day one, are told "you are hated, feared, and the Maker himself views your powers as a stain on his Creation. Your hubris created the single most dangerous, tainted creatures in the world. "

Growing up with that, the threat of Tranquility, the threat of the Harrowing, the threat of the Templars, the threat of the commonfolk - they're practically brainwashed from childhood to believe they're not real people, without real rights, and should pay for the sins of mages that lived a thousand years ago.

Is it any coincidence that it takes a man who was brought to the Circle at 12-14, having potentially led a relatively normal childhood, formed his basic worldviews, then has all that stripped from him to ultimately take the first step?

[upsettingshorts]

Miri1984 wrote...

I disagree here, Sister Petrice's was attempting to force a war with the Qunari, who WEREN'T in Kirkwall oppressing and killing the local population, they were in Kirkwall for a totally different reason. Petrice saw them as a threat because they threatened her faith - people were VOLUNTARILY turning to the Qun, and so she believed the qunari had to be killed.

You're confusing my point. I wasn't speaking of causes - I am consistently denying they matter in this particular line of discussion - but tactics and the motivation behind using them.

Both sought to eliminate or discredit the moderate position through violence and fear. Because they viewed the current situation as intolerable and unjust. They attempted to or in Anders case succeeded in doing just that. Neither had the right to make that decision for anyone, yet that's what they did - because both believed so much in what their conscience was telling them that their path was the righteous one.

Sister Petrice was ultimately right insofar as the fact the Qunari did end up attacking Kirkwall and murdering the Viscount after locals converted, after all.  That there was mutual provocation for years leading up to it isn't any different than the mage vs. templar conflict either.

RinjiRenee wrote...

Why did you think that he didn't want Meredith to search the Circle? Because she would find EXACTLY what she was suspecting all along.

Like I keep repeating, I don't care about causes. Whether Orsino arrived at his position at wanting to keep the peace between mages and Templars in Kirkwall was due to self-preservation or not is as irrelevant to me as the desire of the mages to be free being sympathetic. That was still his position, and one he still maintained till the very end.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[Miri1984]

Oh and @Upsetting Shorts,

Edited because you posted. This is a fundamental difference of opinion about tactics. You believe that the decision shouldn't have been made for the mages, I disagree, someone had to make that decision because they were incapable of making it themselves due to centuries of brainwashing. And sometimes the ends do justify the means. It doesn't mean we have to endorse or agree with the means. In this case I strongly believe nothing else would have worked.

Modifié par Miri1984, 22 mars 2011 - 08:59 .