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[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Maybe after the templar ending he'll ask Hawke to tranquil him.

You should be a comedian.

Pfft. I know right? 

[leggywillow]

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah if it had been an option my Hawkes that killed him would've tranquiled him instead.Sadly not an option to even attempt. Maybe after the templar ending he'll ask Hawke to tranquil him.

HNNGHHHH.

Anders asked to be killed, not zombified.

[mellifera]

What's your obsession with making Anders tranquil, dude.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Hi KoP! I just finally heard Loghain's banters with the Dog in DA:O and holy crap. They made me finally sympathize with him, more than anything else I've seen or heard. The Orlesians stole and killed his dog. Heartbreaking.

Hi!
I assume you don't know what else they did to him?

leggywillow wrote...
Comparing Loghain dislike to
Seb dislike annoys me, for some reason.  Even though it's a valid
comparison in the way you're intending, I would still like to go on
record saying that Sebastian is nowhere near as interesting and cool as
Loghain. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Well duh, I don't think any DA2 character comes even close to being as interesting as him. Imo.

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

Pfft. I know right? 

No.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hi!
I assume you don't know what else they did to him?

Having your mother raped and killed in front of you is less sad than a dead dog.

[Ryzaki]

leggywillow wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah if it had been an option my Hawkes that killed him would've tranquiled him instead.Sadly not an option to even attempt. Maybe after the templar ending he'll ask Hawke to tranquil him.

HNNGHHHH.

Anders asked to be killed, not zombified.

 

I never said he did ask to be made tranquil. Thus the whole "maybe" bit. If Hawke browbeats him with how dangerous Justice is and it could get him to side with the templars and kill the mages a bit more pushing to make sure Justice never harms anyone again isn't that out of the realm of possibility.

As for obsession it's my canon Hawke. Being stuck with the options of letting him run freely or making him a martyr without trying to find a third option isn't him. The first thing he would've suggested would've been tranquilization. He finds Justice to be as much of the problem as Anders was. Killing Anders leaves Justice completely scott free. Killing Anders while Justice continues to exist is leaving the job half finished. 

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Well... at least he'd be a good-looking zombie? Not at all rotting or moaning or people-eating or...

Well I wouldn't consider him a zombie but that goes back to the whole "how human are the tranquil." debate from a few hundred pages back. 

ipgd wrote...
No.

Oh you. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 juin 2011 - 11:55 .

[beckaliz]

I have massive love for Scottish accents. I like Sebastian's conversations with Fenris. I think they're kind of cute, but I like Fenris too and I think it's charming that he's finding his way into a more stable personal situation, and not always GRRR ANGER all the time. Not that I support the Chantry, but as has been mentioned, I think Sebastian is genuine in his feelings.

I also think he's a selfish coward. He talks about how his grandfather would have loved to follow Chantry life but he had his obligation to his people... wtf Sebastian, you're the last of your line, your cousin is a dolt who's going to ruin your city, I KNOW you want to stay in the Chantry but suck it up, show some balls, and go give them the what-for!

Anders, hmm. Well, HE'S certainly not a coward or selfish. Though he does seem to wish he was.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sebastian on the rival path only seems to stay out of loyalty to Hawke, and Elthina.
Plus he wants to stop the issues of Kirkwall spreading.

My canon and him are going to go depose his cousin right after DA2 ends.

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

I never said he did ask to be made tranquil. Thus the whole "maybe" bit. If Hawke browbeats him with how dangerous Justice is and it could get him to side with the templars and kill the mages a bit more pushing to make sure Justice never harms anyone again isn't that out of the realm of possibility.

He'd kill himself long before he consented to being turned Tranquil. I'm sure he would bite his own damn tongue if it were forced on him.

As for obsession it's my canon Hawke. Being stuck with the options of letting him run freely or making him a martyr without trying to find a third option isn't him. The first thing he would've suggested would've been tranquilization. He finds Justice to be as much of the problem as Anders was. Killing Anders leaves Justice completely scott free. Killing Anders while Justice continues to exist is leaving the job half finished.

Tranquil Anders would just as easily be framed as a martyr figure. Even more so, really. Lots of mages seem to think being Tranquil is worse than death.

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 12:06 .

[ipgd]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Did it discuss why Tranquil seem to follow the Chantry by default? Because I've always wondered that. If so, I'd like to read it.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6901812&lf=8

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 12:03 .

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
He kill himself long before he consented to being turned Tranquil. I'm sure he would bite his own damn tongue if it were forced on him.

Oh I don't know. Enough guilt and shame and I think just like turning against the mages it would be possible. Keep hammering in that killing himself is only letting his friend continue hurting and leading other mages into his situation and I could see him cracking enough to allow it. Not permantely. He'd probably arrange it so that as soon as Justice was destroyed he was killed but I could see him allowing it in a low moment. 

Tranquil Anders would just as easily be framed as a martyr figure. Even more so, really. Lots of mages seem to think being Tranquil is worse than death.

*shrugs* It would've been nice to see if there was actually any difference. And I find it hard to believe that the guy who serves the Chantry probably saying how wrong he was will be as effective as the guy who died for his cause.

And of course there's the fact that it can be twisted to say it was a way of avoiding his death. He was a coward, on and on. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 12:08 .

[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

Has it ever been settled whether abominations can even be made tranquil in the first place?

No one's ever successfully freed a mortal of spiritual influnce except by death. Anders says so.

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

Has it ever been settled whether abominations can even be made tranquil in the first place?

 

When would anyone have tried? Abominations aren't human (usually Wynne and Anders are exceptions) so when would anyone have bothered attempting? Everyting Tevinter does seems to be cast in shadow.I wonder if they've tried using the rite of tranquility to reverse demonic possession? 

It seems that once you get to the possession stage the mage can't really be contained. They have to be put down. (either that or no one is interested in experimenting on them...which is odd of itself. They aren't human at that point so I don't see why not.) Unless I missed something? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 12:12 .

[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

I think I remember him saying that... but then I was thinking, that can't be right. What about Connor?

Death of either the host or the spirit. In Connor's case, you killed the spirit or convinced her to leave willingly.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Hi KoP! I just finally heard Loghain's banters with the Dog in DA:O and holy crap. They made me finally sympathize with him, more than anything else I've seen or heard. The Orlesians stole and killed his dog. Heartbreaking.

Hi!
I assume you don't know what else they did to him?

I only got the incidental in-game backstory that you could get without recruiting him. His voice when he talks about the Mabari though, augh. I had some vague awareness of his general motivations (motivations to which my Elven Wardens are actually sympathetic) and the extent of his schemes, but not of what actually happened to him. Now I may have to actually look into it more. I always argue that the writers of the games should write those games tie-in novels, but I've never actually read any of the Bioware ones, and they're pretty much the only people who do that. So I guess I should.

I've always been interested by the "fighting to preserve your culture and people, even through increasingly unscrupulous means" style of villain, because often, in other versions of a particular story, that person would be the hero, or at the very least, the anti-hero.

I wanted to try to contrast Loghain and Anders to bring this back around to the thread topic, but I don't want to start up too many of the old arguments, and all of my contrasts definitely would.

There's a Discworld novel where Fate and Luck are playing an elaborate game similar to chess with Mortals... Loghain strikes me as one of Fate's pieces mercilessly sacrificed to one of the Lady's gambits, whie Anders belongs to the Lady. And she is massively, massively unkind to her pieces sometimes.

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh I don't know. Enough guilt and shame and I think just like turning against the mages it would be possible. Keep hammering in that killing himself is only letting his friend continue hurting and leading other mages into his situation and I could see him cracking enough to allow it. Not permantely. He'd probably arrange it so that as soon as Justice was destroyed he was killed but I could see him allowing it in a low moment.

Yeeaahhh, no. Tranquility is the thing he fears the absolute most. Short of unconsciousness I sincerely doubt there is any sort of mental state in which he would not violently protest it.

There is also no evidence that the Rite of Tranquility would "destroy" Justice. He would have no reason to think that.

*shrugs* It would've been nice to see if there was actually any difference. And I find it hard to believe that the guy who serves the Chantry probably saying how wrong he was will be as effective as the guy who died for his cause.

You don't think it would be effective for whoever comes along to lead the mage revolution to get ahold of his manifesto, and then repeatedly underscore the effects Tranquility had on him as compared to his character expressed through his writing? It would be even more effective if Anders actively recanted his beliefs after Tranquility. It would be immediate evidence for spinning Tranquility into brainwashing. He would be an incredibly visible symbol of everything it does to a person.

And of course there's the fact that it can be twisted to say it was a way of avoiding his death. He was a coward, on and on. 

If Anders becomes a symbol of anything it's probably going to be pretty patently clear that he abhors the entire concept of Tranquility through his manifesto. Anyone who decides to use that towards their cause could make a pretty definitive argument for the idea he would have had to have been forced against his will.

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 12:15 .

[Vlondril]

Ryzaki wrote...


Oh I don't know. Enough guilt and shame and I think just like turning against the mages it would be possible. Keep hammering in that killing himself is only letting his friend continue hurting and leading other mages into his situation and I could see him cracking enough to allow it. Not permantely. He'd probably arrange it so that as soon as Justice was destroyed he was killed but I could see him allowing it in a low moment.

Seriously, if you can convince Anders to cut down mages that he put in danger, anything is possible!

I agree with you that it'd be interesting if there was an option to make him tranquil, especially if you were of the opinion that death lets him off too easy.

[ipgd]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Huh. Is it legitimate to disagree with a writer on matters regarding a fictional world he largely helped create? Because I think I do.

About what? I'm pretty sure he was just arguing against the notion of Tranquil as literal slaves, which they are not, as opposed to metaphorical slaves.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
Yeeaahhh, no. Tranquility is the thing he fears the absolute most. Short of unconsciousness I sincerely doubt there is any sort of mental state in which he would not violently protest it.

I disagree. After all turning against the mages is seen something that he defintely would never do to some people yet he does. Now it mght be a hasty decision and he will not be thinking clearly when he does it...but I can see him doing it. 

There is also no evidence that the Rite of Tranquility would "destroy" Justice. He would have no reason to think that.

That is true. Hawke would need to actually see if that was possible. 

You don't think it would be effective for whoever comes along to lead the mage revolution to get ahold of his manifesto, and then repeatedly underscore the effects Tranquility had on him as compared to his character expressed through his writing? It would be even more effective if Anders actively recanted his beliefs after Tranquility. It would be immediate evidence for spinning Tranquility into brainwashing. He would be an incredibly visible symbol of everything it does to a person.

Point. But Anderswould have already turned against the mages for something he did. Why would they try to say he didn't recant? What other than recanting would make him turn on his fellow mages? Other than deciding that he was wrong to want mage freedom? The mage leader is gonna need to justify that. 

If Anders becomes a symbol of anything it's probably going to be pretty patently clear that he abhors the entire concept of Tranquility through his manifesto. Anyone who decides to use that towards their cause could make a pretty definitive argument for the idea he would have had to have been forced against his will.

You're right. It would be more valuable of a symbol of how far the Chantry is willing to go to crush their opponents will and spirit. Both for the mages and the Chantry. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 12:40 .