57020 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I, too, wonder if it's possible to make Anders tranquil. I believe that he has a literal part of the fade in his body... that Justice is pretty much a pocket dimension inside Anders, a piece of the fade that has been physically brought into this world. I think it's possible that Anders may be literally tranquility proof, based on what happened to Karl when Vengeance came out in his presence. I'm not sure, though.

[Ryzaki]

Vlondril wrote...
Seriously, if you can convince Anders to cut down mages that he put in danger, anything is possible! 

I agree with you that it'd be interesting if there was an option to make him tranquil, especially if you were of the opinion that death lets him off too easy.

 

It would be. Sadly it's either kill him and have Justice off doing god only knows what or keep him alive and have him and Justice doing god only knows what. 

If killing him killed both him and Justice I wouldn't be so bleh on the matter. I can't even imprison him. It's not like he's impossible to subdue and there aren't magic proof doors. If Justice was trapped in Anders' remains after Hawke burned them it wouldn't be an issue but judging from Awakening he can leave a corpse.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 12:39 .

[DreamerM]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Filament wrote...

I think I remember him saying that... but then I was thinking, that can't be right. What about Connor?

Death of either the host or the spirit. In Connor's case, you killed the spirit or convinced her to leave willingly.

Conner was also possessed from afar, by a spirit still physically located inside the Fade. Justice is physically located on this plane, and he isn't so much possessing Anders as fused with him. We saw what happened to Tranquil Karl when Vengence showed up. This makes me think that Anders just...contains a concentrated version of whatever link to The Fade is severed in order to make a mage Tranquil.

That's why, in my HEAD!canon, Anders cannot walk through the Gallows or spend time around Tranquil mages. They start waking up. It's too likely to get him caught, and it's much, MUCH too painful to watch.

As for the idea of using the Rite of Tanquility to reverse a spirit possession, that...is kind of an amazing idea. And wouldn't that be a surprise for whatever Templar was trying to Tranquil our now de-possessed mage...

....Ya know, the more I think about it, the more I think Janders wasn't nearly as central to the plot as he really should have been. There's so much dramatic stuff you could do with an intelligent Abomination who occasionally rips people's heads off in Righteous Fury! So many twists and possible complications! And instead what we got was a Mage IRA bomb blast. This is my sadface.

[Ryzaki]

DreamerM wrote...
Conner was also possessed from afar, by a spirit still physically located inside the Fade. Justice is physically located on this plane, and he isn't so much possessing Anders as fused with him. We saw what happened to Tranquil Karl when Vengence showed up. This makes me think that Anders just...contains a concentrated version of whatever link to The Fade is severed in order to make a mage Tranquil.

That's why, in my HEAD!canon, Anders cannot walk through the Gallows or spend time around Tranquil mages. They start waking up. It's too likely to get him caught, and it's much, MUCH too painful to watch.

As for the idea of using the Rite of Tanquility to reverse a spirit possession, that...is kind of an amazing idea. And wouldn't that be a surprise for whatever Templar was trying to Tranquil our now de-possessed mage...

....Ya know, the more I think about it, the more I think Janders wasn't nearly as central to the plot as he really should have been. There's so much dramatic stuff you could do with an intelligent Abomination who occasionally rips people's heads off in Righteous Fury! So many twists and possible complications! And instead what we got was a Mage IRA bomb blast. This is my sadface.

That does sound painful and it is interesting headcanon. 

That would be a surprise. Are their any codexes on how the RoT is performed? 

Sadface indeed. Well it's not like Wynne did much either but...yeah lots of missed opportunities. 

[Evilnor]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Hi KoP! I just finally heard Loghain's banters with the Dog in DA:O and holy crap. They made me finally sympathize with him, more than anything else I've seen or heard. The Orlesians stole and killed his dog. Heartbreaking.

Hi!
I assume you don't know what else they did to him?

I only got the incidental in-game backstory that you could get without recruiting him. His voice when he talks about the Mabari though, augh. I had some vague awareness of his general motivations (motivations to which my Elven Wardens are actually sympathetic) and the extent of his schemes, but not of what actually happened to him. Now I may have to actually look into it more. I always argue that the writers of the games should write those games tie-in novels, but I've never actually read any of the Bioware ones, and they're pretty much the only people who do that. So I guess I should.

I've always been interested by the "fighting to preserve your culture and people, even through increasingly unscrupulous means" style of villain, because often, in other versions of a particular story, that person would be the hero, or at the very least, the anti-hero.

I wanted to try to contrast Loghain and Anders to bring this back around to the thread topic, but I don't want to start up too many of the old arguments, and all of my contrasts definitely would.

There's a Discworld novel where Fate and Luck are playing an elaborate game similar to chess with Mortals... Loghain strikes me as one of Fate's pieces mercilessly sacrificed to one of the Lady's gambits, whie Anders belongs to the Lady. And she is massively, massively unkind to her pieces sometimes.

Color of Magic and The Light Fantastic, I believe.  So Anders is Rincewind?  With all the running he does, it sorta fits, but not the outright cowardice.

(Thunder rolled.  It rolled a six.)

Modifié par Evilnor, 24 juin 2011 - 12:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ CGG


SPOILERS




Orlesian Chevaliers forced Loghain to watch as they raped his mother and then killed her.

I'd agree that the game should provide us with more info on this, but that's not the kind of person Loghain is. He would not try to get your sympathy in such ways and would not want to make it look like his fight against Orlais is personal (which I don't think it is). There are more important things than him and he knows it. So that info not being revealed makes sense, unless it's say Cauthrien who says it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 juin 2011 - 12:50 .

[Vlondril]

Ryzaki wrote...

Vlondril wrote...
Seriously, if you can convince Anders to cut down mages that he put in danger, anything is possible! 

I agree with you that it'd be interesting if there was an option to make him tranquil, especially if you were of the opinion that death lets him off too easy.

 

It would be. Sadly it's either kill him and have Justice off doing god only knows what or keep him alive and have him and Justice doing god only knows what. 

If killing him killed both him and Justice I wouldn't be so bleh on the matter. I can't even imprison him. It's not like he's impossible to subdue and there aren't magic proof doors. If Justice was trapped in Anders' remains after Hawke burned them it wouldn't be an issue but judging from Awakening he can leave a corpse.  

You've always got the wildcard that is Justice!  Like you said, what really does happen to him?  Even if you kill Anders, there's a plethora of corpses in Kirkwall, so what's to stop Justice from body-hopping going on his merry fanatical way?  Which is kind of an interesting thought.

My only concern with the imprisonment option would be that Anders has slipped out of incarceration waaay too many times, and that was without Justice's aid.

That's why I think the tranquility option would be so fascinating.  There's not a lot of information (that I've seen anyways) on Tranquility and abominations.  Maybe it could trap Justice in Anders?  If they're enmeshed as deeply as Anders' dialogue suggests, wouldn't it cut them both off from the fade?  Or maybe it would just free Justice.

Which makes me think, if Justice was separate from Anders, and cut off from all that anger, would he remain so vengeful?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I wonder what the original purpose of the Rite of Tranquility was. Was it to turn mages into mundanes and only discovered the nasty side-effects of it afterwards? Did it originate in Tevinter or elsewere?

I wouldn't be surprised if Tevinter came up with it to punish enemies of the state.

[mellifera]

Don't tranquil mages only 'wake up' after Anders goes into Justice mode? I don't think he's doing much of that in the Gallows.

[maxernst]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I wonder what the original purpose of the Rite of Tranquility was. Was it to turn mages into mundanes and only discovered the nasty side-effects of it afterwards? Did it originate in Tevinter or elsewere?

I'd bet on the Tevinter mages discovering it through "experimentation".  Once it was discovered, it was probably used to control the insane (I assume it works on non-mages as well?), much like lobotomies were in our world.  I guess it could only have been used sparingly on mages or otherwise extremely dangerous people, given that lyrium is expensive.

Edited to add: yes, KoP, wouldn't surprise me if it were used on "enemies of the state".  Of course, classifying people as "insane" in our own history isn't exactly free of political bias.

Modifié par maxernst, 24 juin 2011 - 12:58 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I wonder what the original purpose of the Rite of Tranquility was. Was it to turn mages into mundanes and only discovered the nasty side-effects of it afterwards? Did it originate in Tevinter or elsewere?

I wouldn't be surprised if Tevinter came up with it to punish enemies of the state.

 

...Yeah that wouldn't be too far out there.

Vlondril wrote...
You've always got the wildcard that is Justice!  Like you said, what really does happen to him?  Even if you kill Anders, there's a plethora of corpses in Kirkwall, so what's to stop Justice from body-hopping going on his merry fanatical way?  Which is kind of an interesting thought.

My only concern with the imprisonment option would be that Anders has slipped out of incarceration waaay too many times, and that was without Justice's aid.

That's why I think the tranquility option would be so fascinating.  There's not a lot of information (that I've seen anyways) on Tranquility and abominations.  Maybe it could trap Justice in Anders?  If they're enmeshed as deeply as Anders' dialogue suggests, wouldn't it cut them both off from the fade?  Or maybe it would just free Justice.

Which makes me think, if Justice was separate from Anders, and cut off from all that anger, would he remain so vengeful?

Indeed. And absolutely maddening for my poor Hawke.  He's ready to call ghostbusters at this point. 

True he might escape. Which would of course give Hawke the thrill of the chase and if possible might lead Hawke to rebel leaders (until of course Anders realized what was up and started wandering on his own). 

There sadly isn't. And I do want to know what happens. 

I'm of the mind that Justice will always be changed. 

As for the RoT working on normal people...does it? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 12:58 .

[Evilnor]

Speculations on Anders made Tranquil always reminds me of this.

[maxernst]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I wonder what the original purpose of the Rite of Tranquility was. Was it to turn mages into mundanes and only discovered the nasty side-effects of it afterwards? Did it originate in Tevinter or elsewere?

I wouldn't be surprised if Tevinter came up with it to punish enemies of the state.

 

...Yeah that wouldn't be too far out there.

Vlondril wrote...
You've always got the wildcard that is Justice!  Like you said, what really does happen to him?  Even if you kill Anders, there's a plethora of corpses in Kirkwall, so what's to stop Justice from body-hopping going on his merry fanatical way?  Which is kind of an interesting thought.

My only concern with the imprisonment option would be that Anders has slipped out of incarceration waaay too many times, and that was without Justice's aid.

That's why I think the tranquility option would be so fascinating.  There's not a lot of information (that I've seen anyways) on Tranquility and abominations.  Maybe it could trap Justice in Anders?  If they're enmeshed as deeply as Anders' dialogue suggests, wouldn't it cut them both off from the fade?  Or maybe it would just free Justice.

Which makes me think, if Justice was separate from Anders, and cut off from all that anger, would he remain so vengeful?

Indeed. And absolutely maddening for my poor Hawke.  He's ready to call ghostbusters at this point. 

True he might escape. Which would of course give Hawke the thrill of the chase and if possible might lead Hawke to rebel leaders (until of course Anders realized what was up and started wandering on his own). 

There sadly isn't. And I do want to know what happens. 

I'm of the mind that Justice will always be changed. 

As for the RoT working on normal people...does it? 

I think it would either force Justice back into the fade or kill him.  And no, I don't know if the Rite of Tranquility works, but normal people do have a connection to the fade, they just don't go there when they're awake.  So being cutoff would presumably have some effect in addition to not dreaming.

Do the Tranquil sleep?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Evilnor wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There's a Discworld novel where Fate and Luck are playing an elaborate game similar to chess with Mortals... Loghain strikes me as one of Fate's pieces mercilessly sacrificed to one of the Lady's gambits, whie Anders belongs to the Lady. And she is massively, massively unkind to her pieces sometimes.

Color of Magic and The Light Fantastic, I believe.  So Anders is Rincewind?  With all the running he does, it sorta fits, but not the outright cowardice.

(Thunder rolled.  It rolled a six.)

Anders in DA:A is a combination of Rincewind and Han Solo (or some more appropriate lovable rogue with a heart of gold archetype, if you prefer. I can't think of a better one at the moment). I don't know who he reminds me of now, which is part of why I like him so much.

Damn, I was looking up one specific quote for Rincewind and I came up with two right together that suit him perfectly, from Terry Pratchett's Eric:

The trouble is that things never get better, they just stay the same, only more so.


"Come on. Let's run away."
"Where to?"
"Don't worry about to," Rincewind said. "In my experience that always takes care of itself. The important word is away."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 juin 2011 - 01:04 .

[Vlondril]

Ryzaki wrote...

Indeed. And absolutely maddening for my poor Hawke.  He's ready to call ghostbusters at this point. 

True he might escape. Which would of course give Hawke the thrill of the chase and if possible might lead Hawke to rebel leaders (until of course Anders realized what was up and started wandering on his own). 

Now THAT is a cool idea! 

ETA: The Justice Fangirl in me kind of hopes that he would revert to his former self if he were to leave Anders, if only to see how he would cope with doing something so terrible. 

Modifié par Vlondril, 24 juin 2011 - 01:02 .

[DreamerM]

yukidama wrote...

Don't tranquil mages only 'wake up' after Anders goes into Justice mode? I don't think he's doing much of that in the Gallows.

If by Justice Mode you means he starts glowing. I'm not convinced there's a real difference between glowy!Janders and nonglowy!Janders. I think anger just brings Justice out more strongly, but he's never not-there. I don't have a hard time imagining that his mere presense might be enough for a sensitive Tranquil to blink his/her eyes and wonder what she's doing...

[Ryzaki]

Vlondril wrote...
Now THAT is a cool idea! 

ETA: The Justice Fangirl in me kind of hopes that he would revert to his former self if he were to leave Anders, if only to see how he would cope with doing something so terrible. 

 

Now I'm sad that it's impossible. D: 

Ah watching Justice have to deal with the fact that he was Vengeance...it would be great to see how that affects him.

maxernst wrote...
I think it would either force Justice back into the fade or kill him.  And no, I don't know if the Rite of Tranquility works, but normal people do have a connection to the fade, they just don't go there when they're awake.  So being cutoff would presumably have some effect in addition to not dreaming.

Do the Tranquil sleep?

 

The latter is what my Hawke's would want. Though...hm...I'm now wondering if a normal human would also lose their emotions. 

Not sure. One would guess they'd have to. Can't really function without sleep emotions or no. 
 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
@ CGG
{spoiler snip}
I'd agree that the game should provide us with more info on this, but that's not the kind of person Loghain is. He would not try to get your sympathy in such ways and would not want to make it look like his fight against Orlais is personal (which I don't think it is). There are more important things than him and he knows it. So that info not being revealed makes sense, unless it's say Cauthrien who says it.

Honestly, the Dog story is enough... and in its own way, it's more unique (and makes an interesting metaphor). Firstly, we actually get to hear about it in game, which is both entirely in character (since he's really just talking to himself and the Mabari), and makes it more accessible. Secondly, the other part of the backstory is something I've heard before. I'm not going to say it isn't a good backstory, but it's one that almost washes over me at this point. I've read Berserk. I know how bad your origin story can get.

The thing with the Mabari... it's a direct analogue for what's happening to Ferelden. The Orlesians take his Mabari, which is a uniquely marvelous and wonderful Ferelden resource, and try to use it for their own ends. But they don't understand or respect it, so they end up destroying and discarding it. If they'd just taken his dog, fine. If they'd killed his dog in a fight, ok. But the fact that they stole his dog because they thought Mabari were interesting and useful, but didn't actually bother to understand how and why the Mabari work and so they mistreat it and leave it to die... that is some deep allegory, right there.

[maxernst]

As far as Justice body hopping, do we know for sure that he can? The first time he wound up in a dead body it was purely by accident. And Anders is a mage, so he has a special connection to the fade which might have enabled things. On the other hand, demons do posess corpses all the time; can they do it without the assistance of a mage or are all these shades summoned?

It seems to me that Justice is still in some sense a fade entity occupying a body in Thedas, unlike the demons that we encounter in their natural form that presumably are pulled through the veil by mages or come through where the veil is naturally thin.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

We don't know if Justice can STILL hop bodies, or not. He does mention in DA:A that he's pretty sure he could leave that corpse and take another one, when things get really bad. At this point he might be too tied up with Anders, and either get pulled into the Fade (and possibly even to whatever lies beyond) by Anders' death.

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

I disagree. After all turning against the mages is seen something that he defintely would never do to some people yet he does. Now it mght be a hasty decision and he will not be thinking clearly when he does it...but I can see him doing it.

They aren't really equivalent. It isn't a slippery slope. Anders follows Hawke when he phrases it as something like "help me clean up this mess/stop this war". There isn't exactly any sort of way to phrase "let's go sever you from the Fade" in a way Anders would be able to "misunderstand". It's a combination of his broken spirit, distrust of his own judgment and inability to fully, rationally process information in his mental state.

Even on some strange planet where he would make a temporary acquiescence, there is no way he would agree to it long enough to settle the chaos, get the equipment and actually perform the Rite. Even with siding with the Templars, he very clearly regrets it and makes it plain he intends to kill himself by the time you make it to the Gallows. He would have more than enough time to realize what he'd agreed to and get out of it, probably through suicide.

[Vlondril]

maxernst wrote...

As far as Justice body hopping, do we know for sure that he can? The first time he wound up in a dead body it was purely by accident. And Anders is a mage, so he has a special connection to the fade which might have enabled things. On the other hand, demons do posess corpses all the time; can they do it without the assistance of a mage or are all these shades summoned?

It seems to me that Justice is still in some sense a fade entity occupying a body in Thedas, unlike the demons that we encounter in their natural form that presumably are pulled through the veil by mages or come through where the veil is naturally thin.

That's a good question!  I don't think we know for sure, I know on my part I was just making the assumption.

I guess it might boil down to whether or not Justice is really a demon. Like you said, demons can possess corpses fairly easily (and this article from the wiki makes it seem like they can do it w/o aid from mages http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Demons) So I think if he had truly crossed over, it wouldn't be too hard for him to body hop. 

But if he is still a spirit, maybe he would need extraordinary circumstances (like when he first possessed a corpse) and couldn't body hop so easily. 

Modifié par Vlondril, 24 juin 2011 - 01:19 .

[ipgd]

maxernst wrote...

As far as Justice body hopping, do we know for sure that he can? The first time he wound up in a dead body it was purely by accident. And Anders is a mage, so he has a special connection to the fade which might have enabled things. On the other hand, demons do posess corpses all the time; can they do it without the assistance of a mage or are all these shades summoned?

It seems to me that Justice is still in some sense a fade entity occupying a body in Thedas, unlike the demons that we encounter in their natural form that presumably are pulled through the veil by mages or come through where the veil is naturally thin.

He says in a banter that he can:

Velanna: What will happen to you once Kristoff's body has fully decayed?
Justice: I do not know. Perhaps I will be drawn back to the Fade?
Velanna: Or remain here, bound to the tiny motes of dust that once were Kristoff.
Justice: Do you think that's possible?
Velanna: I know less about this than you. How securely is your spirit bound to this body? Can you leave it?
Justice: I could, if I chose to.
Velanna: Do you want to leave it?
Justice: I... do not know anymore.

Velanna: It seems you actually like this world.
Justice: I do. I have had experiences I cannot even begin to explain.
Velanna: A pity that you'll soon fall apart.
Justice: I could find and inhabit another corpse. A female body might offer a different perspective, wouldn't you think?
Velanna: If I die in your presence, you stay away from my body, you hear me?
Justice: Your objection is noted.