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[Rinji the Bearded]

When the moderate position is "let's keep quiet and pretend everything is fine," I can't blame some people for being upset about that. But I cannot, under any circumstance, believe that Orsino was a moderate and not a coward. He was hiding skeletons in his closet, pretty nasty and ugly ones, and did not want Meredith to find them. It would be all the ammo she ever needed.

[upsettingshorts]

Miri1984 wrote...

Oh and @Upsetting Shorts, sometimes the ends do justify the means

Sure, but the only "ends" that are certain after Anders "means" is that Kirkwall will be a bloodbath that triggers a war.  

Whether or not the mages win is not assured.  I'm not drawing a casual distinction here, either.  

RinjiRenee wrote...

When the moderate position is "let's keep quiet and pretend everything is fine," I can't blame some people for being upset about that

My Hawke's position was "if we de-escalate the situation we might be able to salvage people and lives."  But the game doesn't really let you pursue that.

RinjiRenee wrote...

But I cannot, under any circumstance, believe that Orsino was a moderate and not a coward.

He's both.  Just like Anders is a terrorist and a revolutionary.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 09:00 .

[Aeowyn]

War and death was assured even if Anders HADN'T done what he did. It was inevitable and would've happened sooner or later. If not because of Anders it would've been because of Meredith/Orsino, or the impending army of doom that were going to march to Kirkwall, guided by the Divine. IMO there was no way for this to end peacefully.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 22 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[Miri1984]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Oh and @Upsetting Shorts, sometimes the ends do justify the means

Sure, but the only "ends" that are certain after Anders "means" is that Kirkwall will be a bloodbath that triggers a war.  

Whether or not the mages win is not assured.  I'm not drawing a casual distinction here, either.  

Varric says quite clearly that the circles are free from Chantry control and the Templars have revolted. And at this stage we're not even certain if there IS a war happening - the catchphrase for the game is "brings the world to the brink of war" not plunges the whole of Thedas into a bloody blood bath. We don't know what's happened, I agree. But I will reserve judgement until DA3 comes out as far as that is concerned. 

[upsettingshorts]

Miri1984 wrote...

We don't know what's happened, I agree. But I will reserve judgement until DA3 comes out as far as that is concerned.

That's a fair point.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 09:04 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Oh and @Upsetting Shorts, sometimes the ends do justify the means

Sure, but the only "ends" that are certain after Anders "means" is that Kirkwall will be a bloodbath that triggers a war.  

Whether or not the mages win is not assured.  I'm not drawing a casual distinction here, either.  

RinjiRenee wrote...

When the moderate position is "let's keep quiet and pretend everything is fine," I can't blame some people for being upset about that

My Hawke's position was "if we de-escalate the situation we might be able to salvage people and lives."  But the game doesn't really let you pursue that.

RinjiRenee wrote...

But I cannot, under any circumstance, believe that Orsino was a moderate and not a coward.

He's both.  Just like Anders is a terrorist and a revolutionary.

Did I ever say that Anders was not a terrorist and a revolutionary..?

Stepping out before this keeps going around in circles.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 mars 2011 - 09:04 .

[YamiSnuffles]

I'd say Anders put it best himself, "We were already doomed. A quick death now or a slow one later - I'd rather die fighting."

They were going to die one way or another. You can either take the slow route or the fast one.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 22 mars 2011 - 09:10 .

[upsettingshorts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Did I ever say that Anders was not a terrorist and a revolutionary..?

Nope, don't read into it too much.  Just providing an example of how you can be two only seemingly contradictory things when one is a motive (cowardice, revolutionary) and the other is an action (moderate, terrorist).

...though others - not you - have said that...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I'd say Anders put it best himself, "We were already doomed. A quick death now or a slow one later - I'd rather die fighting."

It's good he thinks that. The fact he made that decision for others?  That's self-righteousness by definition. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 09:06 .

[Aeowyn]

So...you'd prefer if it they just died not fighting?

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I'd say Anders put it best himself, "We were already doomed. A quick death now or a slow one later - I'd rather die fighting."

They were going to die one way or another. You can either take the slow route or the fast one.

And that's fine. Should do it on his own time.

Defintely didn't ask my mage what she wanted.

"Hey Hawke. Say hypothetically I wanted to blow up the chantry.. Thoughts?"

"Let's say I hypothetically wanted to make you eat a fireball."

[YamiSnuffles]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's good he thinks that. The fact he made that decision for others?  That's self-righteousness by definition. 

How precisely are you ever supposed to start a revolution when it's needed? Take a vote? As others have mentioned, he's been working with a resistance for years. There are others who support fighting for freedom. Mages rising up across the world shows that they are after the end of the game. Someone had to make a call. He did.

[panamakira]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Wow~ so Sebastian got it spot on huh? Freaky.

Eh, I don't know if he got it spot on. I'd say Anders was pretty selfless as opposed to selfish. He'll give up his life, his love, anything for what he sees as the good of mages. However, his cause will always come first. Hawke will never be more important to him than that cause. That doesn't equate to his own needs being most important and selfishness to me. Maybe not a happy relationship and one that perhaps should be avoided, but not the way Seb says it.

I'd agree to an extent that what Anders did is not a selfish act but I think there is some ego-trip coming from maybe Justice as to why he considers himself the cause itself. The cause doesn't belong to Anders but all mages.

But ehh....still to me Seb's warning is valid.

[Miri1984]

@UpsettingShorts He's inhabited by the spirit of JUSTICE, self-righteousness is kind of his job description . And I've already explained why I think he had to make that decision for others. Ya boo sucks to live in Thedas at the moment, true, but something had to be done.

[upsettingshorts]

Aeowyn wrote...

So...you'd prefer if it they just died not fighting?

What I'd prefer isn't relevant as I'm not a mage in Thedas. 

I think I'd prefer Anders not make up my mind for me if I was.

YamiSnuffles wrote...

How precisely are you ever supposed to start a revolution when it's needed?

I thought Wynne was heading to a conference in Cumberland regarding that subject during DA:A. 

But there are plenty of ways, only some of them involve blowing up a civic building.

Miri1984 wrote...

@UpsettingShorts He's inhabited by the spirit of JUSTICE, self-righteousness is kind of his job description .

Indeed, and through Anders Justice lost his objectivity.  You know, "justice is blind."  Not when it shares a conscience with a mortal man it isn't.  

I'm not saying what Anders did was out of character in DA2 - it wasn't - or not compelling - it certainly was.  I loved it, it inspires strong opinions.  That's why I post about it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 09:13 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Bethany seemed like a pretty moderate voice to me. She had lived free most of her life but also seemed mostly okay with her lot in the Circle. She said once to Anders that she never would have had the guts to run away from the Circle like he had. Yet, when given the chance to fight for freedom, she was happy.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I thought Wynne was heading to a conference in Cumberland regarding that subject during DA:A. 

But there are plenty of ways, only some of them involve blowing up a civic building.

A lot of good that did.  That was what, six or seven years before the end of Act 3?

I'm pretty sure diplomacy failed.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 mars 2011 - 09:14 .

[Thiefy]

You know some mages actually liked the circle, like Wynne. What Anders did kinda of took away her choice to be happy in the Circle. Yeah being a mage COULD be bad, but then again you could have also oh, i dont know, been one of those poor people in dark town that squatted in their own filth (instead of having a place, clothing and food provided for them), or say a slave in Tevinter....

I love Anders and understand why he did it but I can't really justify it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I thought Wynne was heading to a conference in Cumberland regarding that subject during DA:A. 

But there are plenty of ways, only some of them involve blowing up a civic building.

But not in Kirkwall.

Kirkwall is a place where the Veil is already thin thanks to centuries of blood magic by the Tevinters during the days of the old Imperium.  The lyrium idol is around and messing with people's heads.  Things ARE bad enough in Kirkwall where the situation would've turned violent regardless of Anders' actions.  Maybe not as soon as they did, but if you talk to the templars in the Gallows in Act 3, one of them mentions Meredith already asking the Grand Cleric for the Rite of Annulment.  This is BEFORE Anders blows up the Chantry.

Something was going to give in Kirkwall, and give violently.  Anders chose to strike first.  I agree that peaceful solutions might have been found elsewhere in Thedas, but not Kirkwall.  Kirkwall was too far gone.

[upsettingshorts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

A lot of good that did.  That was what, six or seven years before the end of Act 3?

I'm pretty sure diplomacy failed.

Or a majority elected to continue the status quo.  Assuming that was the result of the Cumberland conference, then Anders invalided that decision - reached via consensus by his fellow mages - by... blowing up a civic building.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Something was going to give in Kirkwall, and give violently.  Anders chose to strike first.  I agree that peaceful solutions might have been found elsewhere in Thedas, but not Kirkwall.  Kirkwall was too far gone.

Which makes one wonder, why even have a Circle in Kirkwall at all? Mages are transferred between Circles - Karl was - why not simply have a Templar base there whose sole purpose is to locate and enforce local Chantry rules among mages and then ship them out to other Circles where the veil isn't so thin and dangerous in the bloody first place.  That'd be a reform/compromise I'd support.

But then the game wouldn't be as exciting.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 09:18 .

[Ninche]

 But I will reserve judgement until DA3 comes out as far as that is concerned. 

Do you think it will be DA3 or a DA2 expansion? Somehow I believe that the big war or preventing it will happen while you act as the Champion - carry on with the same characters. I think DA3 will have to do with wardens again, and darkspawn and the God Child.

[/quote]

[Rinji the Bearded]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

You know some mages actually liked the circle, like Wynne. What Anders did kinda of took away her choice to be happy in the Circle. Yeah being a mage COULD be bad, but then again you could have also oh, i dont know, been one of those poor people in dark town that squatted in their own filth (instead of having a place, clothing and food provided for them), or say a slave in Tevinter....

I love Anders and understand why he did it but I can't really justify it.

Being ripped away from families, never allowed to have one of  your own, forced to go through the harrowing to be accepted as a mage or else be made tranquil, rapes, beatings, etc etc etc...

Yeah, not exactly ideal.

[nenosronhir]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

How precisely are you ever supposed to start a revolution when it's needed?

I thought Wynne was heading to a conference in Cumberland regarding that subject during DA:A. 

But there are plenty of ways, only some of them involve blowing up a civic building.

I think the conference is actually mentioned, kinda, in regards to the Resolutionists (?! someone correct me if I'm wrong) being a now-violent off-shoot of the.. errrhhh.. *thinkthink...wiki!* Ah, Libertarians. Here's me assuming the conference didn't get very far on the subject of mage freedom.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

A lot of good that did.  That was what, six or seven years before the end of Act 3?

I'm pretty sure diplomacy failed.

Or a majority elected to continue the status quo.  Assuming that was the result of the Cumberland conference, then Anders invalided that decision - reached via consensus by his fellow mages - by... blowing up a civic building.

We don't know what happened, that's the problem.

[Aeowyn]

What irked me was the amount of HARROWED mages who were made tranquil, and even though it was against Chantry law nobody seemed to do anything about it. Not even Orsino, who is supposed to be the "protector" of these mages.

Karl is a good example of being illegally made tranquil.

[MorningBird]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Being ripped away from families, never allowed to have one of  your own, forced to go through the harrowing to be accepted as a mage or else be made tranquil, rapes, beatings, etc etc etc...

Yeah, not exactly ideal.

I actually agree with the Harrowing. *ducks and hides*