57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

leggywillow wrote...
Which Anders would believe to be a good thing.  Hawke may not, as you've said.  But Anders says in the templar rivalry ending that that's pretty much PRECISELY what he's hoping for when he dies.

 

He's hoping Justice but not Vengeance would rise from his corpse. It to me seems more of a line that Justice reamains untainted by everything he did. Not very much different than the "let's stop this war." it's a pretty line until he stops and thinks about it. 

How pray tell is Justice gonna go back to the way he used to be? 

I don't see it out of the realm of possibility for Hawke to convince Anders that yes Justice is now a demon and no he's not turning back no matter how much Anders hopes so. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 02:25 .

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

Except for the fact that Justice can skip freely from his corpse if he's dead unless Anders' death forces Justice back into the Fade.

He explicitly states that he hopes his death will "cleanse" Justice of his corruption. He has no reason to believe that Tranquility would kill Justice. Neither do we, even. It's hopeful speculation at most.

Truthfully the best option would probably be imprisonment until Hawke could figure out someway to destroy Justice. I doubt Anders would fight against that.

He would kill himself.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
He explicitly states that he hopes his death will "cleanse" Justice of his corruption. He has no reason to believe that Tranquility would kill Justice. Neither do we, even. It's hopeful speculation at most.

As is him thinking his death will cleanse Justice. I never said it wasn't hopeful speculation. 

He would kill himself.

Yeah unsurprisingly I don't agree. 

That said I'm going to back away from the suicide topic. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 02:32 .

[DreamerM]

ipgd wrote...
There are any number of ways to handwave it that are no less ridiculous than the reason why you could not turn in Morrigan.

I didn't think that reason was rediculous..."saving the world" is a pretty good incentive for something. And Morrigan hasn't killed or almost-murdered anyone.

For that I don't have to come up with a whole alternate plotline, especially if Bethany and Carver are dead already.

I resent that DA:2 requires large chunks of plot-hole closing leaps of logic to take place offscreen.

[Ryzaki]

DreamerM wrote...
I didn't think that reason was rediculous..."saving the world" is a pretty good incentive for something. And Morrigan hasn't killed or almost-murdered anyone. 
For that I don't have to come up with a whole alternate plotline, especially if Bethany and Carver are dead already. 

I resent that DA:2 requires large chunks of plot-hole closing leaps of logic to take place offscreen.

 

Yeah at best Morrigan b****ed a lot. No big deal. She was the daughter of the apostate who always saved the Warden's life, gave the Warden the treaties and was generally helpful. Mysterious...but helpful. 

Plus you can tell Morrigan to leave as soon as you reached Lothering. She wasn't forced on the player. 

Not to mention that still doesn't explain why my Hawke lets him go in his house, place that manfiesto everywhere (why hello incriminating evidence that Hawke associates with an apostate!), why the others let Anders in...oi. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 02:38 .

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...
He explicitly states that he hopes his death will "cleanse" Justice of his corruption. He has no reason to believe that Tranquility would kill Justice. Neither do we, even. It's hopeful speculation at most.

As is him thinking his death will cleanse Justice. I never said it wasn't hopeful speculation. 

anders' hopes themselves are speculation, but the fact that he hopes it is not. he's explicit in his intent.

he does not, however, speculate on the consequences of him being made tranquil. probably because he's deathly afraid of it.

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote...
anders' hopes themselves are speculation, but the fact that he hopes it is not. he's explicit in his intent.

he does not, however, speculate on the consequences of him being made tranquil. probably because he's deathly afraid of it.

 

Yes an intention that can be argued against. I'm not saying he's gonna come up with this on his own.

Where is this deathly fear of traquility? Karl's quest? When he says he'd rather die? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 02:44 .

[Sialater]

Ryzaki wrote...

ademska wrote...
anders' hopes themselves are speculation, but the fact that he hopes it is not. he's explicit in his intent.

he does not, however, speculate on the consequences of him being made tranquil. probably because he's deathly afraid of it.

 

Yes an intention that can be argued against. I'm not saying he's gonna come up with this on his own.

Where is this deathly fear of traquility? 

He calls it a fate worse than death, I believe.

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes an intention that can be argued against. I'm not saying he's gonna come up with this on his own.

It's not something he would agree with on a whim. By the time Hawke had broken him enough to even possibly consider it, the Chantry moment and its associated breakdown would have long past.

Where is this deathly fear of traquility? 

The fact he kills his lover because he believes death is better? He outright says he'd rather die.

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 02:46 .

[Giggles_Manically]

He hates it yes.

However that is a line Hawke says:
"My sister says that/said that tranquility is a fate worse then death"

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...
He calls it a fate worse than death, I believe.

 

During Karl's quest? Or afterwards? I remember hearing it but I don't recall when. 

[leggywillow]

Ryzaki wrote...
Where is this deathly fear of traquility? 

He makes several disgusted and horrified comments about the Tranquil in the Gallows.  Several times it's referred to as a fate worse than death.  And obviously actions speak louder than words with Karl during his recruitment quest.

To Bethany in a conversation: "If it's Tranquility or death, we have no choice but to make every confrontation a life-or-death struggle."

Fenris: Why was your friend made Tranquil? Do you know?
Anders: No, and it doesn't matter. Nobody deserves that.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
It's not something he would agree with on a whim. By the time Hawke had broken him enough to even possibly consider it, the Chantry moment and its associated breakdown would have long past.

 

I doubt it would take that long. Wouldn't be quick...but it wouldn't take years either. 

The fact he kills his lover because he believes death is better? He outright says he'd rather die.

Yeah totally was operating on the wrong definition of deathly fear. (Me I mean). 

@leggywidow: Yes he is. My mistake. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 02:51 .

[Sialater]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...
He calls it a fate worse than death, I believe.

 

During Karl's quest? Or afterwards? I remember hearing it but I don't recall when. 

I think Giggles said it correctly.

BUT, as some one pointed out , he stabbed his former lover whom he still cared for TO DEATH rather than continue to let him live as a Tranquil.

[Giggles_Manically]

Well Karl said to kill him anyway.

Which is what I would want.

[ipgd]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He hates it yes.

However that is a line Hawke says:
"My sister says that/said that tranquility is a fate worse then death"

He says in Karl's quest, if you ask him if there's a "cure":
"Can you cure a beheading? The dreams of Tranquil mages are severed -- there is nothing left of them to fix."

When you suggest not killing Karl: "The Tranquil I've met seem content with their lot. Maybe it's not that bad."
"You have no idea. Your emotions, your dreams, everything -- stripped away on someone's whim! If I were made Tranquil, I would wish for a friend compassionate enough to kill me."

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 02:52 .

[Giggles_Manically]

But the "fate worse then death" is still a line specific from Hawke.

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...
I think Giggles said it correctly.

BUT, as some one pointed out , he stabbed his former lover whom he still cared for TO DEATH rather than continue to let him live as a Tranquil.

Karl did ask to be killed. If Anders had bust out the murderknife without that permission...yeah that would've been a wth man moment. 

But all of you are right he is deathly afraid of tranquility. 

I do wonder how it's like to be a willing tranquil. That shouldn't be forced on anyone but if someone wants to lose their emotions...

Though I will never understand how a connection to the Fade has anything to do with emotions. The magic excuse is a little weak there.    

As for Anders killing himself only on the templar rivalry. I don't buy it. At that point he sees himself as a monster he's killed innocents, he can't stop himself. He kills himself not just out of grief and remorse but to stop himself from hurting anyone else. That doesn't change just because he helped defend the mages. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 03:00 .

[ademska]

ipgd wrote...
"You have no idea. Your emotions, your dreams, everything -- stripped away on someone's whim! If I were made Tranquil, I would wish for a friend compassionate enough to kill me."

and that right there is why he will never acquiesce to being tranquil

i could maybe buy it for about ten minutes after the chantry blows up, because he's in a seriously compromised mental state, compromised enough to side against mages...

...but as ipgd and others have pointed out, he's clearly coming out of that by the time the party reaches the gallows. he's ready to kill himself for the terrible decision he's made. edit: i'd say this also applies to him hypothetically agreeing to a rite.

Modifié par ademska, 24 juin 2011 - 02:57 .

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...

Though I will never understand how a connection to the Fade has anything to do with emotions. The magic excuse is a little weak there.   

hmmmmm the way i've always interpreted it, the fade is more than just that place dreamers go and where spirits live and whatnot. humans operate physically in the mortal realm but the soul transcends planes or something

[DreamerM]

Sialater wrote...

He calls it a fate worse than death, I believe.

As does Bethany, and Karl, and Ella, and most other mages you can ask.

[Ryzaki]

DreamerM wrote...

Sialater wrote...

He calls it a fate worse than death, I believe.

As does Bethany, and Karl, and Ella, and most other mages you can ask.

 

So does Feynriel actually. 

But he ends up changing his mind. 

[Rinji the Bearded]

quote from the rival ending:

"But I know better than anyone that love alone should not stay your hand."

Did anyone realize that he was talking about Karl here?  It's pretty obvious how he feels about Tranquility.

Besides, what benefit would there be in keeping Anders around?  People are going to want him dead.  Making him Tranquil makes absolutely no sense in the grand scheme of things.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 24 juin 2011 - 03:09 .