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[SurelyForth]

The idea of a tranquil Anders gives me the biggest wiggins of anything in a video game ever. He's such a passionate person, even in Awakening you could get him going and it's clear that feels. To take that away from him...there really would be no reason to keep him alive at that point besides pure sadism. Once tranquil, he'd have no real concept of why being tranquil is bad besides knowing that the man he'd once been had dreaded it.



by Yami!

Modifié par SurelyForth, 24 juin 2011 - 03:10 .

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
I suspect it's just something the writers made up to make the process of taking magic from a mage into something horrible. Otherwise the "issues" with magic and mages and danger would be rather easy to solve. Then again, I'm rather opposed to the idea that you can simply separate a human from its emotions.

That figures. So am I, seperating a human from their emotions with a 100% success rate? I...yeah. Just...no. 

ademska wrote...
hmmmmm the way i've always interpreted it, the fade is more than just that place dreamers go and where spirits live and whatnot. humans operate physically in the mortal realm but the soul transcends planes or something

 

Yeah...so...what they destroy the tranquil's soul or something? 

[DreamerM]

Ryzaki wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Sialater wrote...

He calls it a fate worse than death, I believe.

As does Bethany, and Karl, and Ella, and most other mages you can ask.

 

So does Feynriel actually. 

But he ends up changing his mind. 

He doesn't change his mind. You can convince him otherwise. It's not the same thing. He wouldn't do it without you.

[Ryzaki]

DreamerM wrote...
He doesn't change his mind. You can convince him otherwise. It's not the same thing. He wouldn't do it without you.

 

I really didn't feel like Hawke was convincing him as much as telling him a fact. He wouldn't have to deal with the demons if he was tranquil. He latched onto that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 03:15 .

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...

ademska wrote...
hmmmmm the way i've always interpreted it, the fade is more than just that place dreamers go and where spirits live and whatnot. humans operate physically in the mortal realm but the soul transcends planes or something

 

Yeah...so...what they destroy the tranquil's soul or something? 

or at least severs them from part of it? that's my hypothesis at any rate. it explains why the rite is always successful (at least that we know of).

and yeah, surelyforth, making anders tranquil to me seems the most sadistic thing you could possibly do to him. it kind of freaks me out, like, a lot.

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote...
or at least severs them from part of it? that's my hypothesis at any rate. it explains why the rite is always successful (at least that we know of).

and yeah, surelyforth, making anders tranquil to me seems the most sadistic thing you could possibly do to him. it kind of freaks me out, like, a lot.

 

It tears their soul? How does one tear a soul without being a demon? 

It is the most sadistic thing you can do to him. Just like letting Meredith kill Bethany. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 03:19 .

[DreamerM]

I really didn't feel like Hawke was convincing him as much as telling him a fact. He wouldn't have to deal with the demons if he was tranquil. He latched onto that. 

Why did you, as you put it, "tell him this fact?" Because you wanted him to consider Tranquility. You found the thing that would convince him. It IS a fact, but it's also a fact that you were the driving force behind that choice. He would not consider it a real option if you were not there.

[ipgd]

I don't necessarily mind the inclusion of an option to Tranquil Anders, but being... unaware of the actual implications of that strikes me as somewhat psychopathic.

[Ryzaki]

DreamerM wrote...
Why did you, as you put it, "tell him this fact?" Because you wanted him to consider Tranquility. You found the thing that would convince him. It IS a fact, but it's also a fact that you were the driving force behind that choice. He would not consider it a real option if you were not there. 

He wouldn't have considered anything a real option if Hawke wasn't there. Anything other than trying to wake up. (most likely to no avail).

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
It begs some rather headscratching questions, because emotions is such a large part of who you are - you can't really make decisions without at least some emotional imput, otherwise you'll just end up listing logical arguments for or against something without really getting anywhere. There is a reason we have feelings, and they're not always just these pesky little things that stand in the way of cold reason - a lot of the time they are an integral part of it.

 

Really. It's one of the reasons I can't buy the Tranquil being completely emotionless. That tranquil in Ostagar seemed quick to correct the Warden when it was insuinated that he wasn't human. If he was truly emotionless...why would he care? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 03:28 .

[Amondra]

ipgd wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He hates it yes.

However that is a line Hawke says:
"My sister says that/said that tranquility is a fate worse then death"

He says in Karl's quest, if you ask him if there's a "cure":
"Can you cure a beheading? The dreams of Tranquil mages are severed -- there is nothing left of them to fix."

When you suggest not killing Karl: "The Tranquil I've met seem content with their lot. Maybe it's not that bad."
"You have no idea. Your emotions, your dreams, everything -- stripped away on someone's whim! If I were made Tranquil, I would wish for a friend compassionate enough to kill me."

Hearing those lines break my heart.  I have to say I would rather live and have to deal with all the negitive emotions, then to not feel them at all.  I too would rather have death, as at that point you're not living, it is almost like being in a coma like state.

With some of the things Anders says(most posted here) and actions, I am also in the boat that there isn't a force great enough to sway Anders into the corner of letting someone make him Tranquil 

[DreamerM]

ipgd wrote...

I don't necessarily mind the inclusion of an option to Tranquil Anders, but being... unaware of the actual implications of that strikes me as somewhat psychopathic.

I just want to see what would happen. How would being an Abomination affect the Rite of Tranquility? Considering he carries the Fade around with him, would that mean tranqulity would kill him? Would it mean he CAN'T be made Tranquil? Would something else happen? Would nothing happen?

I resent that we will never know.

Modifié par DreamerM, 24 juin 2011 - 03:31 .

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...

ademska wrote...
or at least severs them from part of it? that's my hypothesis at any rate. it explains why the rite is always successful (at least that we know of).

 

It tears their soul? How does one tear a soul without being a demon?

i... what?

the concept of 'soul' is so abstract that i won't even attempt to define it, but i explained how i sort of think it works. emotions, part of the soul, are tied to the fade, and severing that connection to the fade so too severs the ability to access them.

He wouldn't have considered anything a real option if Hawke wasn't
there. Anything other than trying to wake up. (most likely to no avail).

you're still telling it to him with the intention of swaying him toward a specific opinion, thus it's presenting an argument.

Modifié par ademska, 24 juin 2011 - 03:29 .

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

He wouldn't have considered anything a real option if Hawke wasn't there. Anything other than trying to wake up. (most likely to no avail).

He only suggests being made Tranquil himself if you pick the options that explicitly point out the demons before he comes to that conclusion himself. Even if you try to convince him to agree with the demons, he figures it out on his own. So, really, Hawke is only responsible for that if he tears down his self-confidence and convinces him he wouldn't have been able to fight the demons on his own (which he can, and does).

[Hill-Hurwitz]

The connection of emotions and magic with the Fade seems perfectly reasonable to me. It's a dreamworld. There's no actual physical interaction, but the mind reacts regardless, with emotional response. By severing emotion you thereby severe the link mages have to both their magic and the Fade.

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote...i... what? 

the concept of 'soul' is so abstract that i won't even attempt to define it, but i explained how i sort of think it works. emotions, part of the soul, are tied to the fade, and severing that connection to the fade so too severs the ability to access them.

If you're managing to tear it in the exact right spot to kill emotions it has to be something tangible. Unless they destroy the soul outright. Or there is no right spot and they just rip it and for some reason emotions go poof. 

Why would emotions be tied to the Fade? Why does killing one's connection to the Fade destroy access to the soul part that has emotions but not anything that has memories or the life itself? Why is everything perfectly intact save emotions? 

you're still telling it to him with the intention of swaying him toward a specific opinion, thus it's presenting an argument.

So telling someone a fact is trying to persaude them? If someone walks up to me says "should I leave my car door unlocked? I'll only be gone a second." and they're in a bad part of the neighborhood me going "If you do that chances are it'll be gone when you come back." is trying to persuade them? 

ipgd wrote...
He only suggests being made Tranquil himself if you pick the options that explicitly point out the demons before he comes to that conclusion himself. Even if you try to convince him to agree with the demons, he figures it out on his own. So, really, Hawke is only responsible for that if he tears down his self-confidence and convinces him he wouldn't have been able to fight the demons on his own (which he can, and does).

True. 

Don't see how going "that's a demon." is tearing down oe's self confidence thoug. More of a case of stating the obvious. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 03:37 .

[legbamel]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
It's funny when people talk about Hawke's reactions being determined by the player, because I usually feel like Hawke's reactions in fic are contrary to those emotions portrayed by the lines available and the delivery of those lines.

I have not, so far, read a single long-running fanfic I liked in which Hawke is not significantly ooc at several times in the story. In some, he manages to stick 100% to the lines said onscreen during scenes from the game, and behaves ooc only during scenes offscreen... but Hawke still consistently behaves differently than his/her established personality in fic, which to me clearly indicates that Hawke's default personality is too limited. Maybe most fic writers don't consider their particular Hawkes ooc, but as someone who has previously been employed as a writer for games who was required to maintain character tone between quests and conversations, I often read fic and think "Yes, why couldn't Hawke have been written more like this?" Hi-C even does this, going so far as to "break scene" at the end of his fic... a breaking of scene that I feel is much more emotionally interesting and real than the default scene.

When I play Mass Effect, I feel like I'm discovering Shepard's personality through the lines she delivers... when she says or does something, I add it to my picture of Commander Shepard, the character. My picture of her is made up of the puzzle created by all the lines she has said and actions she has taken laid out on the table of her vaguely defined origin story. I know that she likes old SF novels because of a banter with Ashley and Kaidan. I know that she is, at first, pretty much just pursuing casual sex with Garrus because of how she interacts with him. I'm not deciding that and picking options related to it, I'm learning it by experiencing it.

When I play DAO, I feel very free to determine what kind of character I'm playing. I'm not figuring out who she is based on what she does or how she reacts, I'm picking what she does and how she reacts, and I'm picking from a wide range of selections. I'll admit that I didn't get 'into" DA:O in the same way beause I was used to Mass Effect, and missed the voice. At the same time, though, when the PC is asking Alistair about the Chantry and sex, she can display so many very different attitudes that speak volumes about her attitude toward romance. I'm really steering and determining how she thinks and feels.

The problem I had with DA2 is that it did neither what ME does (creating a strong character and giving you the opportunity to truly understand her through the medium of story,) nor what DA:O did (create a wealth of divergent paths and decisions that allow you to define the personality of your own protagonist.) Instead, DA2 gave you a character who was both limited and whose decisions weren't powerful enough to teach you much about her.
[snip for longness]

This is essentially why I have so much DA2 fic going.  I adore creating a Shepard out of the pieces in the ME games and writing about her but Hawke and her whole story, fascinating though the bones may be, leave too much out to satisfy me.  I want to explain to myself how they got from Point A to Point B because the game doesn't give me that information and Hawke just doesn't seem that interested in anything yet ends up being the Champion.  Fic has to take him or her out of character because Hawke is a tool for Varric to tell the story of Anders.  If you want to get invested in her or him you have to look for more either in your own head or in fan creations.  At least that's my experience.

[DreamerM]

Ryzaki wrote...
So telling someone a fact is trying to persaude them?

In that context? Absolutely. You're presenting "facts" to a person who is unsure and looking to you for information and guidence.

Ryzaki wrote...
If someone walks up to me says "should I leave my car door unlocked? I'll only be gone a second." and they're in a bad part of the neighborhood me going "If you do that chances are it'll be gone when you come back." is trying to persuade them? 

Yes. Because you are basically telling them, "no, you should lock your door." Not by saying it as such, but by feeding them the reason why you think they should. You ask them to come to the conclusion themselves, but only by presenting your own train of reasoning.

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

If you're managing to tear it in the exact right spot to kill emotions it has to be something tangible. Unless they destroy the soul outright. 

Why would emotions be tied to the Fade? Why does killing one's connection to the Fade destroy acces to the soul part that has emotions but not anything that has memories or the life itself?

Because it's a fantasy game and the writers say so? Literal "souls" do not exist in real life so there is no rubric of reason they must adhere to.

So telling someone a fact is trying to persaude them? If someone walks up to me says "should I leave my car door unlocked? I'll only be gone a second." and they're in a bad part of the neighborhood me going "If you do that chances are it'll be gone when you come back." is trying to persuade them?

Statements of fact are generally pretty critical to pesuasive statements, yes.

[Ryzaki]

DreamerM wrote...
In that context? Absolutely. You're presenting "facts" to a person who is unsure and looking to you for information and guidence.

Huh. Great so I have to RP that Hawke differently now. He doesn't care to persuade people.  There should be a "you decide." option for Feynriel isn' there? 

Yes. Because you are basically telling them, "no, you should lock your door." Not by saying it as such, but by feeding them the reason why you think they should. You ask them to come to the conclusion themselves, but only by presenting your own train of reasoning.

Got it. 

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...

ademska wrote...i... what? 

the concept of 'soul' is so abstract that i won't even attempt to define it, but i explained how i sort of think it works. emotions, part of the soul, are tied to the fade, and severing that connection to the fade so too severs the ability to access them.

If you're managing to tear it in the exact right spot to kill emotions it has to be something tangible. Unless they destroy the soul outright. 

Why would emotions be tied to the Fade? Why does killing one's connection to the Fade destroy acces to the soul part that has emotions but not anything that has memories or the life itself?

oh, i don't think it's as specific as all that. and i don't think the thedan 'soul' is something concrete. the fade is an abstract concept as well; it's explicitly not a physical realm, time doesn't even exist 'there'. you're thinking about this too literally, and i don't mean that as a criticism, i'm saying that applying a physical standard to anything involving the fade is simply impossible because the fade transcends physics and science and i am not cut out for epistemological arguments this many months out of college.

but i will say that i don't think it's as clear-cut either as just a clean severing of all emotion

So telling someone a fact is trying to persaude them? If someone walks up to me says "should I leave my car door unlocked? I'll only be gone a second." and they're in a bad part of the neighborhood me going "If you do that chances are it'll be gone when you come back." is trying to persuade them? 

if you tell them like three or four times, yes -- which you have to do with feynriel. there's nothing wrong with it, but it's still said with the intention of persuasion.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
Because it's a fantasy game and the writers say so? Literal "souls" do not exist in real life so there is no rubric of reason they must adhere to.

It doesn't. Stll feels ridculous though. 

Statements of fact are generally pretty critical to pesuasive statements, yes.

So the only way for that not to be persuasive would be if I made an arguement supporting both sides? Or would I just be trying to persuade them in both ways in that case? 

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...
So the only way for that not to be persuasive would be if I made an arguement supporting both sides? Or would I just be trying to persuade them in both ways in that case? 

...are you asking because you're trying to rp a true-neutral hawke?  or just one who isn't inclined to persuade people? sorry to break it to you, but there's no such thing in real life, and it's reflected in the da2 writing. even on the subconscious level, we're all inclined to have other people see as we do. it's a fruitless endeavor you're on.

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote...
oh, i don't think it's as specific as all that. and i don't think the thedan 'soul' is something concrete. the fade is an abstract concept as well; it's explicitly not a physical realm, time doesn't even exist 'there'. you're thinking about this too literally, and i don't mean that as a criticism, i'm saying that applying a physical standard to anything involving the fade is simply impossible because the fade transcends physics and science and i am not cut out for epistemological arguments this many months out of college.

So basically "A wizard did it." 

but i will say that i don't think it's as clear-cut either as just a clean severing of all emotion

Yeah that'll never make sense to me. Getting rid of emotion...it's just. Owain mentions the stockroom being familiar and preferring to be there. 

Just preferring something is usually related to comfort and familiarity. I just can't buy the whole "no emotions." thing. Owain answers the Warden's "are you afraid of the abominations" with a "of course. If I faced an abomination I'd surely perish." It's extremely dulled but...there's *something* there. 

if you tell them like three or four times, yes -- which you have to do with feynriel. there's nothing wrong with it, but it's still said with the intention of persuasion.

 

I really saw that as just telling him the truth. But it was persuading apparently. 

ademska wrote...
...are you asking because you're trying to rp a true-neutral hawke?  or just one who isn't inclined to persuade people? sorry to break it to you, but there's no such thing in real life, and it's reflected in the da2 writing. even on the subconscious level, we're all inclined to have other people see as we do. it's a fruitless endeavor you're on.

 

Is that a yes or no?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 03:52 .