57020 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Because it's a fantasy game and the writers say so? Literal "souls" do not exist in real life so there is no rubric of reason they must adhere to.

It doesn't. Stll feels ridculous though. 

Statements of fact are generally pretty critical to pesuasive statements, yes.

So the only way for that not to be persuasive would be if I made an arguement supporting both sides? Or would I just be trying to persuade them in both ways in that case? 

For what it's worth, I didn't interpret those lines as attempting to sway Feynriel one way or the other, either. 

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...
Is that a yes or no?

it's a 'from a philosophical standpoint what you're asking is impossible'

it's also a 'but if you're rping a human and not a robot then just pick what you find least persuasive-sounding'

[DreamerM]

Ryzaki wrote...
Huh. Great so I have to RP that Hawke differently now. He doesn't care to persuade people.  There should be a "you decide." option for Feynriel isn' there? 

My memory of the Fenriel talk is that either way, he's going to look to you to help him decide what to do. I supported his only independant suggestion, which was to seek out training in Tevinter (and said a silent apology to Fenris) simply because it was the one way I could imagine the kid might, possibly, have a real future. Yes there's a chance he'll become a magister and cause suffering, but when the other options were him dead, tranquil, or a prisoner, I decided to take the risk.

I wanted there to be an option to reply to his letter and ask him to Stay Good. No blood magic. No slaves. Remember who he is, and do the right thing when he can. He can consider it paying me back for saving his life.

[Ryzaki]

DreamerM wrote...
My memory of the Fenriel talk is that either way, he's going to look to you to help him decide what to do. I supported his only independant suggestion, which was to seek out training in Tevinter (and said a silent apology to Fenris) simply because it was the one way I could imagine the kid might, possibly, have a real future. Yes there's a chance he'll become a magister and cause suffering, but when the other options were him dead, tranquil, or a prisoner, I decided to take the risk.

I wanted there to be an option to reply to his letter and ask him to Stay Good. No blood magic. No slaves. Remember who he is, and do the right thing when he can. He can consider it paying me back for saving his life.

And it's not one of the quests you can skip in act 1 is it. ..Gah. Why on earth is *that* a forced quest? <_< 

It is sad you can't tell him anything about Tevinter until he gets there (or have Fenris talk to him). I do hope he doesn't become some crazy Magister. That would suck. 

ademska wrote...

it's a 'from a philosophical standpoint what you're asking is impossible'

it's also a 'but if you're rping a human and not a robot then just pick what you find least persuasive-sounding'

 

Neutral option it is. 

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Is it really? Isn't it possible to explain Tranquility and its effects and then present the alternative and explain what that will entail? Basically give him a range of options and then let him pick which one he finds the most appealing? Doesn't sound like persuation to me.

Sadly I don't recall that being possible. Though I did go from telling him about tranquility to telling him he could master his power. He choose to master it in that game from what I can recall. My memory might be crap though. 

Exactly. I'm really not a fan of how Tranquility is handled, but hey. It's their game.

 

True. It just feels like a "this is horrible!" gimmick without the writers actually checking it for consistency. (Like Owain saying he felt fear. ) 

Conversation was this: 

Warden: aren't you afraid of the Abominations?

Owain: Of course. I am defensless and if I ran into one, I would surey perish. 

...<_< If he's emotionless and his memorises are hazy...why would he even recall what fear felt like? And why would he feel it in the first place? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 juin 2011 - 04:06 .

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...
True. It just feels like a "this is horrible!" gimmick without the writers actually checking it for consistency. (Like Owain saying he felt fear. ) 

don't forget that what we know of tranquility (and indeed most things) is all from an in-game and thus biased perspective, as david gaider is so quick to point out

[maxernst]

I didn't even remember having the option to send him to the Tevinter Imperium. Maybe I was too mesmerized by Marethari's advice.  And I still don't understand the design decision that made them construct Act 1 in such an odd way.  On the one hand, it's a treasure hunt akin to the Athkatla chapter of Baldur's Gate, but on the other, there's this whole series of quests that quite honestly forced me to metagame, where I was literally doing them only because they were marked main plot.  I realize they wanted to introduce certain characters and ideas and give us a flavor of what was going on in Kirkwall, but it seems like they needed more hook for some of  those main plot quests.  The motivation for hawke to pursue some of the non-mandatory quests were much clearer to me.

Modifié par maxernst, 24 juin 2011 - 04:16 .

[Ryzaki]

maxernst wrote...

I didn't even remember having the option to send him to the Tevinter Imperium. Maybe I was too mesmerized by Marethari's advice.

I think you have to tell him he can master his power. If you sent him to the Circle Orsino puts in for a transfer to Tevinter. (which begs the question can mages ask to transfer to Tevinter? And if so why don't more of them do it .) and if he was with the Dalish he just packs up and leaves. 

ademska wrote...
don't forget that what we know of tranquility (and indeed most things) is all from an in-game and thus biased perspective, as david gaider is so quick to point out

 

Another reason I can't believe it completely strips emotion. Either BW dropped the ball or it was intentional. 

[LT123]

Owain also refuses to change his greeting when you ask him if he greets everyone like that. ("I apologize, but I am not inclined to change it.") He also says he believes he is a person even though he doesn't have feelings.

The Tranquil confuse me.  I  must brush up on the codex entries.

[DreamerM]

ademska wrote...
don't forget that what we know of tranquility (and indeed most things) is all from an in-game and thus biased perspective, as david gaider is so quick to point out

I feel like how Tranquility is presented was toned down between games too. In DA:O Tranquil made me kind of nervous, with their flat voices and volcan-like approach to everything. This is someone who wouldn't feel a thing if you stabbed them. Or if they stabbed you. They were functional, but missing an essential part of their humanity.

Maybe it was the voice acting, but I never got the same impression from the DA:2 Tranquil. They seemed more human, even though all the mages were scared to death of ending up that way. Mixed messages.

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

True. It just feels like a "this is horrible!" gimmick without the writers actually checking it for consistency. (Like Owain saying he felt fear. ) 

Conversation was this: 

Warden: aren't you afraid of the Abominations?

Owain: Of course. I am defensless and if I ran into one, I would surey perish. 

...<_< If he's emotionless and his memorises are hazy...why would he even recall what fear felt like? And why would he feel it in the first place? 

He probably is simply misinterpreting what "fear" means. He is aware of what the concept is supposed to be, and conflates his desire to not die with it.

The nature of the Tranquil is likely more abstract than "completely unable to feel emotion".

[maxernst]

DreamerM wrote...

ademska wrote...
don't forget that what we know of tranquility (and indeed most things) is all from an in-game and thus biased perspective, as david gaider is so quick to point out

I feel like how Tranquility is presented was toned down between games too. In DA:O Tranquil made me kind of nervous, with their flat voices and volcan-like approach to everything. This is someone who wouldn't feel a thing if you stabbed them. Or if they stabbed you. They were functional, but missing an essential part of their humanity.

Maybe it was the voice acting, but I never got the same impression from the DA:2 Tranquil. They seemed more human, even though all the mages were scared to death of ending up that way. Mixed messages.

I agree, the tranquil in DA2 were nowhere near as creepy.

[Ryzaki]

...Okay what the hell.

BSN is freaking out .

[Evilnor]

Someone expressed an interest to see what it was like to be Tranquil
http://dragonage.wik...of_the_Tranquil

[ademska]

Evilnor wrote...

Someone expressed an interest to see what it was like to be Tranquil
http://dragonage.wik...of_the_Tranquil

i wonder if that will assuage some because it just creeps me right the **** out.

[Evilnor]

ademska wrote...

Evilnor wrote...

Someone expressed an interest to see what it was like to be Tranquil
http://dragonage.wik...of_the_Tranquil

i wonder if that will assuage some because it just creeps me right the **** out.

Yeah, that's someone who went Tranquil willingly, thinking it was a better option than certain abominization during the Harrowing.  Things like that are subjective, imho.  If you're a powerful enough mage, maybe you don't even have to worry about it?  Can you think how it would make the less powerful feel if they didn't even have that option?  And the ones who are horrified equally by both end up committing suicide before their Harrowings, as Anders intimates.

[Ryzaki009]

ipgd wrote...
He probably is simply misinterpreting what "fear" means. He is aware of what the concept is supposed to be, and conflates his desire to not die with it.

The nature of the Tranquil is likely more abstract than "completely unable to feel emotion".

Isn't desiring anything a part of emotion though?  

I really wish they weren't considered emotionless...because they really aren't. 

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

When are  they ever going to fix this? The amount of "LOGGING YOU OUT B****" renegade interrupts this site has made against me is really starting to get irritating.

The board refuses to let me login. I think my pass was switched and sadly I used an old email so I can't get my account back.  
This is evil...pure utter evil. 

Modifié par Ryzaki009, 24 juin 2011 - 05:04 .

[pagerunner]

I got the email about my password being reset, but the link didn't work. Then I used the link to get a password reminder submitted to me, and.... that hasn't done diddly. Meanwhile, over here, I'm still logged in.

I have no idea.


eta:  What I can't do, apparently, is log in on ea.com.  I haven't tried firing up any of the games yet to see if they'll work.  Not sure I even want to try right now.  Why do these things always end up being so insufferably complicated?

Modifié par pagerunner, 24 juin 2011 - 05:38 .

[Ryzaki009]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
Seriously? Man. That sucks something fierce. I'm so sorry to hear that.

I bet a blood mage did it.

I hope it's fixed. I really don't want to have to do all that over again.

It was totally a bloodmage.

Modifié par Ryzaki009, 24 juin 2011 - 05:38 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I don't think merely preferring or choosing one thing over the other constitutes emotion. Even with the basic robotics we have now, I could program a robot who 'prefers' to stay on black-colored tiles and does not go on whilte-colored tiles. The presence of a command not to go on white-colored tiles and the presence of an instinct not to put one's hand into a fire are functionally indistinguishable. The tranquil seem to have an instinct against self-destruction that is functionally no different from a computer program that creates a virtual bacterium that "wants" to eat... in that it will willingly go to areas where there is "food," and stay away from areas where there is none. The instinct to pursue a thing that leads to your continued existence and to avoid things that do not isn't what I'd technically call an emotion, otherwise we could say the AI in a video game feels fear. I believe the tranquil call this instinct they have fear because they can see no logical difference between this instinct and fear. They would probably say that the video game AI that causes the monster not to path into lava and die is "fear,"

Emotion is nebulous, yes, but it is clear that the Tranquil lack anything more advanced than instincts toward basic self-preservation and perhaps a very minor reward system that makes them prefer completing tasks successfully to doing nothing. All that is stuff that can easily be accomplished by a computer program, even today.

Now, I do think that AIs can have emotion, when they are advanced enough. GlaDOS has emotions, and Legion has something very close. I'd say both of them posses both free will and sentience, at the very least. I'd say emotions are related to the ability to feel things in relation to abstract concepts rather than the instinct to fulfill basic instinctual requirements.

In a world where the Fade is not a thing, it may indeed be impossible to separate a human from their emotions. But Dragon Age is a place where the dreamworld literally exists. It is a world where there are literally demons; anthropomorphic personifications of emotions that can exert genuine and tangible influence on a world. In a world where Desire can be a person, is it so strange to imagine cutting the capacity to desire out of a person? It makes perfect sense according to the internal rules of that world.

As for Anders, I could believe Hawke forcing tranquility upon him and Anders being too broken to resist it, but I'd imagine him begging Hawke to change his mind and simply kill him instead until the moment the brand hits... if such an attempt would be successful at all, which I am not certain of.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 juin 2011 - 06:07 .

[Ryzaki009]

I'd say it is an emotion. A program only does what its commanded otherwise. Which may include self -preservation. If a machine isn't built to protect itself it won't.

Wanting to live to me is desire. That's an emotion.The tranquil don't require a command to want to live. If he had claimed someone told him dying wasn't an option I'd understand but he said he's prefer not to die. That's...desire to me. It's not a decision made due to logic (me dying would mean I wouldn't do X) but because he wants to.

It's a very dulled form but it's there.

Modifié par Ryzaki009, 24 juin 2011 - 06:14 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

So in your mind, bacteria have emotions? Since they will avoid areas where the temperature is likely to kill them, moving to areas where it will allow them to continue to live?

And are you saying that a robot who has a self-preservation command in it also has emotions? I'm not sure where you're drawing the line here.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 juin 2011 - 06:14 .