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[Ryzaki009]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

So in your mind, bacteria have emotions? Since they will avoid areas where the temperature is likely to kill them, moving to areas where it will allow them to continue to live?

I'd find that to be instinct. They're not humans are last I checked didn't have brains. And yes something with a brain is were I draw the line for it having emotion.

As for the robot. No because the robotwas programmed to do that. It's not choice of its own free will. It has no other option. It must survive because that's what the programming dictates. On the other hand the tranquil don't have to correct the Warden about how human they are, they don't have to stay in the stockroom because "I'd prefer to be here." which to me is a sign of familiarity and comfort. Especially not after being told its safer somewhere else.

And don't you dare insuinate that Legion doesn't have feelings! He's the bro-bot.

Modifié par Ryzaki009, 24 juin 2011 - 06:28 .

[ReiSilver]

Oh gods, the Tranquil give me the absolute heebeejeebees. I can't imagine how someone could prefer that to death, because you're not really you any more are you? There's a thing that looks like you, it talks and breaths and lives but it's not -you-

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

So in your mind, bacteria have emotions? Since they will avoid areas where the temperature is likely to kill them, moving to areas where it will allow them to continue to live?

And are you saying that a robot who has a self-preservation command in it also has emotions? I'm not sure where you're drawing the line here.

Emotion is the self-preservation command. They are necessary to drive the instincts required for our survival.

And I am saying that a tranquil is a human for whom emotion has been removed and replaced with the same kind of instinctual self-preservation as bacteria and computer programs possess.

How much of a brain must one have to have emotions? If a bacteria isn't enough, is a planarian? How about an earthworm? An ant? a lamprey? How far do we have to go up the ladder of brain function before you consider the instinctual self-preservation impulse an emotion? You say no to the baterium right?

My point is that for the tranquil, the instinct toward self-preservation is no more advanced than it is in a bacterium. It is not a complex mix of free will, philosophical thought, and passion.

[Ryzaki009]

Yet Orwain would rather stay in a familiar place than go somewhere safer?

It's still self preservation?

A bacteria or earthworm would choose to stay in a place it's used to rather than one that's the most beneficial? 

Modifié par Ryzaki009, 24 juin 2011 - 06:32 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


And I am saying that a tranquil is a human for whom emotion has been removed and replaced with the same kind of instinctual self-preservation as bacteria and computer programs possess.

How much of a brain must one have to have emotions? If a bacteria isn't enough, is a planarian? How about an earthworm? An ant? a lamprey? How far do we have to go up the ladder of brain function before you consider the instinctual self-preservation impulse an emotion? You say no to the baterium right?

My point is that for the tranquil, the instinct toward self-preservation is no more advanced than it is in a bacterium. It is not a complex mix of free will, philosophical thought, and passion.

Which I vehemently disagree with.

Can you explain how the tranquil's impulse toward free will differs from that of an ant, then? I'm just utterly confused, since you refuse to elaborate, or tell me how advanced a life form must be for you to consider it to have emotions.

[Ryzaki009]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
It depends on how great your fear of death is. To some, it might be preferable to exist in some form, even if that form is creepy enough to give children nightmares forever and ever.

I'm honestly not sure which I would choose. I have never been in a situation where I feared for my life, but in theory, there's no way in hell I'd let myself be made Tranquil.

Yeah...some people have a very very strong will to live.

I'm not so sure. Depends on how I'd die most likely. If it was fast and peaceful no but if it was slow? Defintely would prefer to be tranquil.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ryzaki009 wrote...

Yet Orwain would rather stay in a familiar place than go somewhere safer?

It's still self preservation?

A bacteria or earthworm would choose to stay in a place it's used to rather than one that's the most beneficial? 

Beneficial how? And DG has said that the tranquil are able to feel something resembling satisfaction in a job well done. They logically believe that outside the circle people are likely not to give them work to do and possibly to oppose or harm them, so they stay where they are safe and will continue to be assigned tasks.

[Ryzaki009]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Beneficial how? And DG has said that the tranquil are able to feel something resembling satisfaction in a job well done. They logically believe that outside the circle people are likely not to give them work to do and possibly to oppose or harm them, so they stay where they are safe and will continue to be assigned tasks.

The fact that they can feel something "like" satification (i.e. pleasure not that kind though...pervs) isn't really helping the "no emotions." point. Ah well we're not gonna agree. To me it's like saying someone's completely blind but they can see blue and yellow. It's...not true. I'm of the mind that their emotions are ridculous dulled and don't affect them as strongly but they're still there. Just very deeply buried.

Modifié par Ryzaki009, 24 juin 2011 - 06:42 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ryzaki009 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Beneficial how? And DG has said that the tranquil are able to feel something resembling satisfaction in a job well done. They logically believe that outside the circle people are likely not to give them work to do and possibly to oppose or harm them, so they stay where they are safe and will continue to be assigned tasks.

The fact that they can feel something "like" satification (i.e. pleasure not that kind though...pervs) isn't really helping the "no emotions." point. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] Ah well we're not gonna agree. To me it's like saying someone's completely blind but they can see blue and yellow. It's...not true.

So you are saying a substance that is almost but not entirely unlike tea is, in fact, tea? I'm willing to "agree to disagree" about the whole no emotions thing, if you will agree to "The tranquil have emotions so seriously reduced that they resemble the emotions of a life form with only a basic brain and nervous system, rather than the emotions of a human or sentient life form.

I mean, I could say that ants feel something resembling satisfaction in a job well done when they bring food back to their anthill. I'm not sure where I stand on ants having emotions, though.

To me it's like saying someone is paralyzed, and then someone else pointing out that that person is still capable of breathing. Ok, yes.. not completely paralyzed. Just very very paralyzed, to the point where they can make no voluntary movements.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 juin 2011 - 06:44 .

[Ryzaki009]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
So you are saying a substance that is almost but not entirely unlike tea is, in fact, tea? I'm willing to "agree to disagree" about the whole no emotions thing, if you will agree to "The tranquil have emotions so seriously reduced that they resemble the emotions of a life form with only a basic brain and nervous system, rather than the emotions of a human or sentient life form.

I mean, I could say that ants feel something resembling satisfaction in a job well done when they bring food back to their anthill. I'm not sure where I stand on ants having emotions, though.

I never argued that their emotions were as strong as a normal person. I always said they were dulled. They aren't however non-existant. They are still humans with most of the complexity a human has. Trying to say they have no emotions at all is to me a stretch especially given their behaviors in game.

Ants don't do anywhere near as complex behaviors as a tranquil is capable of. That said I'm not sure if they feel satification. I would not however compare them to a tranquil. Due to the whole behavioral differences. Plus...human vs ant.

Are ants capable of logic? I thought they operated mostly on instinct but I'm not an insect person.

Plus it offends my no absolutinist statments sensibilities. :innocent:

To me it's like saying someone is paralyzed, and then someone else
pointing out that that person is still capable of breathing. Ok, yes..
not completely paralyzed. Just very very paralyzed, to the point where
they can make no voluntary movements.

Uh...someone pointing out being able to breath as not being paralyzed would be ridculous. That said no one says anyone is "completely paralyzed" unless it has a modifer from "the waist down". (at least no professional I know does...which admittedly is only about 5 people.) 

If you're completely paralyzed...you're dead. Or gonna die very soon. Or suffering that horrible body lock when you can't move or breathe when you just wake up for a few minutes/seconds. That's hell on earth. :pinched:You have...no real life outside a bed. If your legs are completely paralyzed on the other hand you're fine. It's the whole absolutinist statement thing. Paralysis only refers to part of the body. Saying completely is what throws it in a reference to the whole body. If someone says "he's completely paralyzed." and the guy can move any part of his body...yeah that person is wrong.

Don't make absolutist statements. 9 times out of 10 you're gonna be wrong. - is the advice I'd give them. I'm guilty of it myself of course but yeah...absolutist statement = bad.

Modifié par Ryzaki009, 24 juin 2011 - 07:10 .

[ademska]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I'm sorry for being snippy, but this is really not a conversation to be had right after a whole night without a minute of sleep and remnants of whiskey still in my system. I'll try then.

I'm not going to compare humans to other life forms because they are not comparable. And because no one knows what they feel or don't feel. Tranquil are human. The instincts we humans have are driven by emotions - the instincts to procreate driven by a sexual desire or a want for love, the instinct to preserve your life by avoiding or escaping danger driven by fear, and et cetera. We are like this because those who don't feel a desire for sex or love aren't going to get children simply because logic dictates, and those with a lack of fear are more likely to be killed.

My point is, humans aren't made to run on instinct alone. They need a reason to do the things they do. Ants don't need a reason for anything they do, because they are made to run on instinct.

your argument is based on a supposition that instinct and emotion are the same thing.

i would contend they are not.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ryzaki009 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
So you are saying a substance that is almost but not entirely unlike tea is, in fact, tea? I'm willing to "agree to disagree" about the whole no emotions thing, if you will agree to "The tranquil have emotions so seriously reduced that they resemble the emotions of a life form with only a basic brain and nervous system, rather than the emotions of a human or sentient life form.

I mean, I could say that ants feel something resembling satisfaction in a job well done when they bring food back to their anthill. I'm not sure where I stand on ants having emotions, though.

I never argued that their emotions were as strong as a normal person. I always said they were dulled. They aren't however non-existant.

Ants don't do anywhere near as complex behaviors as a tranquil is capable of. That said I'm not sre if they feel satification. I would not however compare them to a tranquil. Due to the whole behavioral differences.

Are ants capable of logic? I thought they operated mostly on instinct but I'm not an insect person.

True, the idea is imperfect. The computer program one is better, I think. Still since there is no way to know what something that is not human "feels," I suppose there is no way to know whether it is similar to what we "feel."

That's the problem with Tranquil. There is only one person who knows how to compare what the tranquil feel to what humans feel, with the same information we would need in order to make such a comparison ourselves... and that is Karl, for the few moments he is back with us. He's essentially a human who has had the thought processes and feelings of something with a dramatically different neurological setup, and then returned to the ability to have "feelings" in the same way that a human can.

"It's like you brought a piece of the fade into this world. I had already forgotten what that feels like." 
"You cannot imagine it Anders, all the color, all the music in the world gone."
"I'd gladly give up my magic, but this... I'll never be whole again." 
"kill me before I forget again" 
"I would rather die a mage than live as a Templar puppet."

That's all the information we get from the only person capable of giving us information on what tranquility is like from the perspective of someone who still posesses the perspective of a normally functioning human. It's not enough to make any conclusive decisoin, but we know several things fairly conclusively:

Tranquil mages forget what many emotions they previously experienced 'feel' like.
It is something that Karl believes a normal human cannot really imagine.
He likens it to being a puppet, which makes me believe he feels like he does not have free will in that state.

Thus I can conclude when Tranquil mages use words that are conventionally used to describe emotions, they cannot actually remember what those emotions feel like to a non-tranquil. So their use of words that represent 'feelings' may show no more actual understanding of the emotions non-tranquil feel than we possess of the emotions other life forms may feel.

I don't trust the tranquil to compare their mental processes to human emotions any more than I think we are capable of comparing our human emotions to the mental processes of other animals or AIs. Basically, I think the tranquil observe human emotions and see that they perform a similar function to whatever you would call the mental processes of the tranquil and, seeing that they fulfil the same objective when it comes to survival or productivity, equate them to one another.

I will give you that an absolute statements are difficult.

It may be incorrect to say that tranquil have "no emotions" in the same way as it would be incorrect to say that someone who has no voluntary control of their body but is still capable of involuntary movements is "completely paralyzed."  Yet, for someone to be alive their lungs and heart must be able to move (unless they are hooked up to life support). So while "completely paralyzed" is fundamentally inaccurate in those cases, it's close enough to be a useful term to describe a limitation so severe that all voluntary movement is impossible.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 juin 2011 - 07:11 .

[ademska]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
No, it isn't. I state very clearly that they are not, in fact, the same thing.

pardon me, not equating them exactly so much as tying them together.

to rephrase, i would contend they're not related at all.

[DreamerM]

Ryzaki009 wrote...
 On the other hand the tranquil don't have to correct the Warden about how human they are, they don't have to stay in the stockroom because "I'd prefer to be here." which to me is a sign of familiarity and comfort.

Familiarity and Comfort are both linked to safety in the primordial mind. In times of distress, or as a Tranquil would probably describe it..."uncertainty," anything, whether it's a human on downwards, will gravitate towards places they associate with safety.

Yes you can tell him that it's safer elsewhere, but he doesn't have to believe you.  Especially since he journey to the gate would be full of uncertainties, and he does not seem to be in immediate danger in the storeroom.

So it proves that Tranquil do have some agency of their own. He was able to decide for himself that he was better-off staying where he was then following your advice and heading for the door.

Still gives me the willies.

[Ryzaki009]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

True, the idea is imperfect. The computer program one is better, I think. Still since there is no way to know what something that is not human "feels," I suppose there is no way to know whether it is similar to what we "feel."

My issue with the computer program one is that's designed from the ground up by a human being. A tranquil *is* a human being. They weren't created any differently than any other human. A computer can not feel unless you program it too. It will not feel on it's own.

To use a ME example the geth didn't start achieving sentinence until the Quarians kept making them more and more intelligent.

That's the problem with Tranquil. There is only one person who knows how to compare what the tranquil feel to what humans feel, with the same information we would need in order to make such a comparison ourselves... and that is Karl, for the few moments he is back with us. He's essentially a human who has had the thought processes and feelings of something with a dramatically different neurological setup, and then returned to the ability to have "feelings" in the same way that a human can.

He was also unwilling. I'm inclined to believe it was far more tramuatic and hit him far harder than it would've been for someone who accepted it and was willing to undergo the rite.

"It's like you brought a piece of the fade into this world. I had already forgotten what that feels like." 
"You cannot imagine it Anders, all the color, all the music in the world gone."
"I'd gladly give up my magic, but this... I'll never be whole again." 
"kill me before I forget again" 
"I would rather die a mage than live as a Templar puppet."

That's all the information we get from the only person capable of giving us information on what tranquility is like from the perspective of someone who still posesses the perspective of a normally functioning human. It's not enough to make any conclusive decisoin, but we know several things fairly conclusively:

Tranquil mages forget what many emotions they previously experienced 'feel' like.
It is something that Karl believes a normal human cannot really imagine.
He likens it to being a puppet, which makes me believe he feels like he does not have free will in that state.

The lack of free will contradicts Gaiders' statement about them not being slaves does it not? Unless of course the fact that Karl wasn't willing played a part in it. Which...it probably did.

Thus I can conclude when Tranquil mages use words that are conventionally used to describe emotions, they cannot actually remember what those emotions feel like to a non-tranquil. So their use of words that represent 'feelings' may show no more actual understanding of the emotions non-tranquil feel than we possess of the emotions other life forms may feel.

I don't trust the tranquil to compare their mental processes to human emotions any more than I think we are capable of comparing our human emotions to the mental processes of other animals or AIs. Basically, I think the tranquil observe human emotions and see that they perform a similar function to whatever you would call the mental processes of the tranquil and, seeing that they fulfil the same objective when it comes to survival or productivity, equate them to one another.

By one tranquil who was unwilling when the rite was performed? You don't think his unwillingness might've just played a part in it? At all? 

Our issue with other animals and AIs is that we never have the opporunity to think as they do. Tranquils on the other hand have such an opportunity. But I feel they feel the emotions at a much lower capacity.

I will give you that an absolute statements are difficult.

not difficult. Just a bad idea to use especially when trying to group a gruop of various into a giant box that has loads of restrictions.

It may be incorrect to say that tranquil have "no emotions" in the same way as it would be incorrect to say that someone who has no voluntary control of their body but is still capable of involuntary movements is "completely paralyzed."  Yet, for someone to be alive their lungs and heart must be able to move (unless they are hooked up to life support). So while "completely paralyzed" is fundamentally inaccurate in those cases, it's close enough to be a useful term to describe a limitation so severe that all voluntary movement is impossible.

I'd compare the tranquil more to deafness and blindness than paralysis.

DreamerM wrote...
Familiarity and Comfort are both linked to
safety in the primordial mind. In times of distress, or as a Tranquil
would probably describe it..."uncertainty," anything, whether it's a
human on downwards, will gravitate towards places they associate with
safety.

Yes you can tell him that it's safer elsewhere,
but he doesn't have to believe you.  Especially since he journey to the
gate would be full of uncertainties, and he does not seem to be in
immediate danger in the storeroom.

So it proves that Tranquil do have some
agency of their own. He was able to decide for himself that he was
better-off staying where he was then following your advice and heading
for the door.

Still gives me the willies.

He wouldn't believe Wynne someone he grew up in the tower with (and probably had authority over him) that it was safer downstairs? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]  That doesn't seem like placing emotion over logic? His instinct (especially without emotion) would have to wage war against his logic. With no emotions...shouldn't the logic win out? With logic he should be able to tell it's only his instinct influencing him against better judement. His instinct telling him it's safer only goes so far on its own. Between Wynne's word and the fact that they're crazed mages and abominations close by (really they're not far at all from where he is) the fact that he's staying there is...just...yeah it's weird.

Though yeah he does have some semblance of free will since he didn't immediately do as he was told.

Modifié par Ryzaki009, 24 juin 2011 - 07:41 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

ademska wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
No, it isn't. I state very clearly that they are not, in fact, the same thing.

pardon me, not equating them exactly so much as tying them together.

to rephrase, i would contend they're not related at all.

Then I disagree with you.

The thing is, Thedas is not... here. The rules and way things work are fundamentally different. Those things that may be inextricably entwined with the physical here may not be, there.

Have you ever read His Dark Materials? In that book, in our world, the human 'soul' is just an inseparable part of 'us,' while in Lyra's world it is a physical thing that runs around outside of you. When one of us visits her world, we get a physical thing that runs around outside of us.

I am saying that the physical and metaphysical components of emotion vary from world to world, or dimension to dimension, or reality to reality, however you want to define it. When speaking about things like this, how you believe things work in OUR world has little relevance. You need to examine the evidence present in that world, and alter your conclusions about how that world works based on that new evidence.

If this were a realm of study, I'd call it "magical theory." It is a sublimely useless discipline for anyone who isn't a writer (or a traveler between realities). But in a world where you can hide a piece of yourself in an object in order to avert your death, you're clearly dealing with a different ruleset, a place where the relationship between the nature of self and physical reality is profoundly other. 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 juin 2011 - 07:27 .

[ademska]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

ademska wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
No, it isn't. I state very clearly that they are not, in fact, the same thing.

pardon me, not equating them exactly so much as tying them together.

to rephrase, i would contend they're not related at all.

Then I disagree with you.

that's fine! 

i think i've solidified my opinion of the tranquil, and a big part of it is that they have recollection of how emotions are supposed to factor into decision-making (through memory and logic) but are no longer capable of applying them in any reasonable sense.

another big part of it is that there's a whole other side to the rite and its consequence that we're not told, or that people in thedas proper simply don't understand themselves.

Modifié par ademska, 24 juin 2011 - 07:27 .