57020 réponses à ce sujet

[syllogi]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

You know some mages actually liked the circle, like Wynne. What Anders did kinda of took away her choice to be happy in the Circle. Yeah being a mage COULD be bad, but then again you could have also oh, i dont know, been one of those poor people in dark town that squatted in their own filth (instead of having a place, clothing and food provided for them), or say a slave in Tevinter....

I love Anders and understand why he did it but I can't really justify it.

Wynne's life was better when she was taken by the Circle, but even she had a child taken away from her, and in her youth she admitted she struggled against her fate.  When you talk to her about the Chantry mother who helped her find faith, she sounds kind of bitter when she brings up that those who dedicate themselves to the Chantry have a choice.

Even if the Ferelden Circle was a nicer cage, mages were still prisoners there.  It's why Jowan, Uldred, and all the rest rebelled.  People don't rage against a system that works.

[upsettingshorts]

nenosronhir wrote...

Here's me assuming the conference didn't get very far on the subject of mage freedom.

And if the conference was made up of mages - Senior Enchanters from all over Thedas - and they didn't decide that pushing for additional freedom was a good idea... see where I'm goin' with this? About authority and the right to make decisions on behalf of people?

RinjiRenee wrote...

We don't know what happened, that's the problem.

Well it's safe to assume nothing major changed, as we'd probably have heard about it. But it is still an assumption.

[YamiSnuffles]

I again bring up Bethany. Once in the Circle, she was fine with living by the status quo and never would have acted on her own. She'd told Anders before that she would never be as brave as he was to run away. However, once the issue is forced and she is has to fight, she seemed glad for the chance to do so.

[Rinji the Bearded]

MorningBird wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Being ripped away from families, never allowed to have one of  your own, forced to go through the harrowing to be accepted as a mage or else be made tranquil, rapes, beatings, etc etc etc...

Yeah, not exactly ideal.

I actually agree with the Harrowing. *ducks and hides*

I can see the reasoning behind it, but the impression I get is that you either face a demon or you become a tranquil slave.  Correct me if I'm wrong?  I'd be scared out of my wits.

[upsettingshorts]

TeenZombie wrote...

People don't rage against a system that works.

That's... not true. But it's more misleading than untrue, because it creates a false dichotomy between "working systems" and "not working systems."

Tolerance towards a particular system's flaws varies.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 09:26 .

[Aeowyn]

RinjiRenee wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Being ripped away from families, never allowed to have one of  your own, forced to go through the harrowing to be accepted as a mage or else be made tranquil, rapes, beatings, etc etc etc...

Yeah, not exactly ideal.

I actually agree with the Harrowing. *ducks and hides*

I can see the reasoning behind it, but the impression I get is that you either face a demon or you become a tranquil slave.  Correct me if I'm wrong?  I'd be scared out of my wits.

Pretty much. And I bring up again, all the Harrowed mages who were still made tranquil (Karl for example) and even though it went against Chantry law, nobody did anything about it. Orsino didn't even complain about it even though he's the First Enchanter and he's supposed to protect "his" mages.

[Miri1984]

Even Anders (in Awakenings) agrees that the Libertarian's desire to pull away from Chantry control is madness. I suspect it was voted down somewhat like the mage boon was in Ferelden.

Mages: Can we be separate from Chantry control?
Chantry: No.

By the time we get to DA2 Anders is Justice-ified and wants complete freedom, but I think most of the world would like there to be a few templars around still. And I suspect if there's a compromise to be made it will be more along the lines of what Thrask was trying to achieve rather than mages running about willy nilly, especially seeing as the Templars have revolted as well.

I was truly heartened by what Thrask almost did. And it was mucked up by a blood mage. But it does indicate there are Templars out there who believe there is another way.

[Ninche]

You know even the Ferelden Circle isn't as lovely and fun as Hogwarts. They don't even let the mages go outside the courtyard, there were rumors of horrible things templars did to the apprentices, and even if you complete your harrowing and become a mage you will always have to follow the chantry's orders and get send wherever they need you doing what they tell you, and if you are considered dangerous even for a second they have the freedom to do whatever they bloody want with you. On top of that you are an abomination in the eyes of The Maker and cursed. No wonder most mages just want to run away and have a farm somewhere, they don't get to experience normal human freedom in any way.

Modifié par Ninche, 22 mars 2011 - 09:27 .

[panamakira]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

You know some mages actually liked the circle, like Wynne. What Anders did kinda of took away her choice to be happy in the Circle. Yeah being a mage COULD be bad, but then again you could have also oh, i dont know, been one of those poor people in dark town that squatted in their own filth (instead of having a place, clothing and food provided for them), or say a slave in Tevinter....

I love Anders and understand why he did it but I can't really justify it.

Agreed.

[syllogi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

People don't rage against a system that works.

That's... not true. But it's more misleading than untrue, because it creates a false dichotomy between "working systems" and "not working systems."

Okay, so the phrasing may be off, but the fact is that some governments work better than others, and the ones that don't work collapse.  The Circle/Chantry relationship worked for a thousand years, which is pretty good, considering, but there were flaws in that system.  The fact that this act of terrorism led to other Circles rebelling proves that.  If they didn't want to be free, they'd shake their head and do nothing after this event.

[leggywillow]

Miri1984 wrote...
I was truly heartened by what Thrask almost did. And it was mucked up by a blood mage. But it does indicate there are Templars out there who believe there is another way.

Speaking of which, I was a bit confused by that part of Act 3.  Basically, Hawke hunts and shuts down what seemed like a comparatively peaceful group of mages AND templars, yes?.  Yes, Grace ended up being crazy, but all of the nice, cool templars were a part of it!  Maybe Hawke should have just let them be?

[signcherie]

RinjiRenee wrote...


Moderate?  He was covering up a murderer who tortured and maimed women for his own sick experiments.  Providing him material.  Not to mention that he was a blood mage.

I fail to see how he was a moderate in this.  He was teaching others blood magic.  When the templars charged into the Circle, all the mages were turning into abominations and using blood magic. Meredith did have her reasons for suspicion.

?

I got the impression that the mages, in terror for their lives, opened up their minds to the demons as a last resort. Did I miss something that showed they were all using blood magic before?

ETA: Honest question, because I do miss stuff sometimes. Not trying to pick a fight or anything.

Modifié par signcherie, 22 mars 2011 - 09:36 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Miri1984 wrote...

I was truly heartened by what Thrask almost did. And it was mucked up by a blood mage. But it does indicate there are Templars out there who believe there is another way.

Agreed.  I wish there had been a way to make Thrask's plan work--he was a cool dude.  If only there were more templars like him and Carver's namesake.  But no, everyone in Kirkwall is apparently nuts.

[upsettingshorts]

Miri1984 wrote...
I was truly heartened by what Thrask almost did. And it was mucked up by a blood mage. But it does indicate there are Templars out there who believe there is another way.

Thrask is one of the characters - including my Hawke, who was trying to hold everything together to the very end - that I felt bad for when Anders did what he did. 

Not only was Thrask killed by a Blood Mage trying to do the right thing, it ended up not mattering at all. 

At least SuperCullen sides with you at the end if you pick the Templars.  He can be the new Knight Commander.  Too bad it's too late.

[Aeowyn]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

I was truly heartened by what Thrask almost did. And it was mucked up by a blood mage. But it does indicate there are Templars out there who believe there is another way.

Agreed.  I wish there had been a way to make Thrask's plan work--he was a cool dude.  If only there were more templars like him and Carver's namesake.  But no, everyone in Kirkwall is apparently nuts.

Yes I really didn't like that quest. I was forced to kill mages and templars who were working together to stop the tyranny and all the while I was thinking "Why am I doing this?"

Edit: Cullen sides with you if you side with the mages too.....

Modifié par Aeowyn, 22 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

I was truly heartened by what Thrask almost did. And it was mucked up by a blood mage. But it does indicate there are Templars out there who believe there is another way.

Agreed.  I wish there had been a way to make Thrask's plan work--he was a cool dude.  If only there were more templars like him and Carver's namesake.  But no, everyone in Kirkwall is apparently nuts.

It's Hellmouth, everyone's gone nuts.

[panamakira]

I found it funny that when I go about Hightown at night, or any other "town" there's a lot of blood mages every hour or so attacking me throughout the whole game.

It's interesting that the game throws them out as random enemy mobs. I didn't see any random enemy templars except when I was doing a side quest to sabotage Meredith.

[upsettingshorts]

Aeowyn wrote...

Edit: Cullen sides with you if you side with the mages too.....

I wasn't sure as I haven't completed my mage playthrough yet.

And it's SuperCullen.  Cullen stepped into a phone booth between DA:O and DA:2.  Cullen was just his Clark Kent-like disguise in Origins.

[Souris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...
I was truly heartened by what Thrask almost did. And it was mucked up by a blood mage. But it does indicate there are Templars out there who believe there is another way.

Thrask is one of the characters - including my Hawke, who was trying to hold everything together to the very end - that I felt bad for when Anders did what he did. 

Not only was Thrask killed by a Blood Mage trying to do the right thing, it ended up not mattering at all. 

At least SuperCullen sides with you at the end if you pick the Templars.  He can be the new Knight Commander.  Too bad it's too late.

He sides with you if you pick the mages too. Or at least he did with me.

Edit: Someone said it before me :x

Modifié par Souris, 22 mars 2011 - 09:38 .

[greatbriton]

Hey everybody.  New here.  I know you're all in deep discussions, and other things ,  but I just had to chime in and say I've been following this forum for a few days now, since I'm unable to let go of DA2 and Anders, I just want to say that finding this forum has been fantastic.  

Most of the places I've visited have been pretty full of Anders hate and this has been refreshing.  I've been engrossed in your discussions over the game and the character.  Thank you. 

[TripLight]

Cullen sides with you regardless. Love that guy

[upsettingshorts]

greatbriton wrote...

Most of the places I've visited have been pretty full of Anders hate and this has been refreshing.

Oh just wanna take the opportunity to say I don't hate Anders.  I love his character and what he did. 

My character?  Hated his guts by the end.  But that's roleplayin'.  

TripLight wrote...

Cullen sides with you regardless. Love that guy

SuperCullen.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 09:40 .

[YamiSnuffles]

TripLight wrote...

Cullen sides with you regardless. Love that guy

I think we can all agree on that. Whatever therapy Cullen got, everyone else needs to get in this game. He has turned pretty awesome.

[Sable Rhapsody]

RinjiRenee wrote...

It's Hellmouth, everyone's gone nuts.

Haha!  That sounds about right.

I wonder how much of it is Meredith (since we do hear nasty rumors even in Act 1), how much is the idol, and how much is Kirkwall's fragile Veil.  Though the idol itself seems to act a little like the One Ring, where it brings out negative qualities already present in the person and augments them.

[nenosronhir]

Ultimately it's impossible to make everyone happy. On the whole it seems like there are more mages who would not be opposed to freedom if it was offered (basing this on the views of the Fraternities, 4/5 approve of more freedom, or the choice of freedom), but would be opposed to fighting for it - keep in mind, however, the majority of Circles across Thedas are not exposed to the extremes the Gallows mages are.

That the Circles are hinted at standing up to the Templars in the "epilogue" is good for something, however. They could have opted to surrender (though it depends on how the Divine reacts (or overreacts) to the situation in Kirkwall), or consider Kirkwall an anomaly, but perhaps the possibility of the abuses Meredith gets away with for so long opens some eyes to the reality of their imprisonment. Realistically, no one would want bloodshed, especially if they've lived in relatively comfortable Circles (the Circle in Ferelden comes to mind).

If the the creation of the Resolutionists is any indication of how far peaceful negotiations towards mage freedom in the rest of the world was going (we already know how it was going in Kirkwall), Anders actions are certainly extreme, but I don't view them as wrong. One way or another, the situation in Kirkwall was going to boil over; either the Divine was going to march on the city or Meredith was going to Annul the Circle - Anders just drew first blood.