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[CulturalGeekGirl]

I also wish we had some aging, especially for Anders, who has been slowly killing himself with exhaustion, madness, and neglect for nearly a decade. I put him at 26-29 at the start, so solidly in his mid thirties by the end. That said, I've called people who were barely three years younger than me "kiddo" in the past, so mocking someone about an age difference doesn't require a substantial gap. And you're allowed to call anyone who is more than fifteen years younger than you "kid" for your entire life. If you're 85, you can call a 70 year old "kid." It's the rules!

In my mind, elves age... erratically. I like to think that they stay sort of bizarrely ageless well into their fifties, and then all of a sudden their bodies remember "Crap... crap! Mortality! time to be Old now."

Do the Wardens all have different assumed starting ages? Or are they all a uniform 20-21? That feels about right for all my elves and mages, but not quite as obvious for the dwarves and nobles.


Source.

I love the way that Anders is staring at his hands here.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 25 juin 2011 - 05:35 .

[ashyraine]

SurelyForth wrote...

I'd say that Alistair is quite a bit younger than Anders. Isn't he only 20/21 in Origins?

I've said this a million times before, but I always pegged Anders as being 25/26 in Awakening. Nate is 30, Alistair is 23ish by then, and he seems definitely in between the two of them, both by his appearance and his personality. If he started escaping as an apprentice, he could have had several under his belt before he took his Harrowing (or even made multiple attempts in one year). And Gamlen calls him "boy" in the third act, which would seem strange if Anders was almost 40.

Of course, Karl makes me doubt this a little. He seems to be solidly upper 30's and I'd be more than a little squicked if there was a 10+ age difference between him and Anders considering they were together when Anders was an apprentice.

Just. Ew. We don't need 14 year old Anders and 24 yr old Karl ><  plus wouldn't that be a bit old to be an apprentice? Pretty sure they tranquil you if you haven't mastered the basic skills in a certain amount of time. That's what had Jowan scared (iirc)

I tend to think Anders is pushing 40 near end game (for whatever that's worth. I *carded* a 40 yr old last night because I thought he looked so young). He also seems to look older in the final Gallows convo. But that could just be the lighting in there

edit: lighting not lightning. curse you elenilote and your making me think of FF

Modifié par ashyraine, 25 juin 2011 - 05:33 .

[ipgd]

ashyraine wrote...

(for whatever that's worth. I *carded* a 40 yr old last night because I thought he looked so young).

You must have made his day.

[pagerunner]

SurelyForth wrote...

Of course, Karl makes me doubt this a little. He seems to be solidly upper 30's and I'd be more than a little squicked if there was a 10+ age difference between him and Anders considering they were together when Anders was an apprentice.

Considering that when Anders describes his relationship with Karl, he's talking about things the apprentices did to make things bearable, which sounds more like WITH EACH OTHER than anything else, I don't think there's meant to be as much of an age gap between them as everyone seems to assume.  The only indicator we've got here is character design, and I think we can all agree on a few things:

- Not a hell of a lot of resources are going to be spent on a character who appears in the game for maybe two minutes tops;
- Not everyone in the world is going to be a pretty bishie who looks like they're perpetually 15; and,
- The game engine in some respects is pretty lacking.  Talk to anyone about how Alistair looks in DA2 and then come back to me.

Also, never ever ever rely on the writers of ANYTHING to keep their math straight.  Ever.*  It's almost always what fails.  Calculating ages and timespans is the direction in which madness lies. 

I think we can assume for the sake of sanity and non-squickiness that Karl is not actually that much older -- I tend to assume he is a bit, but not by miles.



*I just read a painstakingly researched and incredibly well-written novel that still managed to screw up the death date of the first book's MAIN CHARACTER by ten years.  It's always time where these things stumble; I don't know why.  

[Toastyblue2]

ashyraine wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I'd say that Alistair is quite a bit younger than Anders. Isn't he only 20/21 in Origins?

I've said this a million times before, but I always pegged Anders as being 25/26 in Awakening. Nate is 30, Alistair is 23ish by then, and he seems definitely in between the two of them, both by his appearance and his personality. If he started escaping as an apprentice, he could have had several under his belt before he took his Harrowing (or even made multiple attempts in one year). And Gamlen calls him "boy" in the third act, which would seem strange if Anders was almost 40.

Of course, Karl makes me doubt this a little. He seems to be solidly upper 30's and I'd be more than a little squicked if there was a 10+ age difference between him and Anders considering they were together when Anders was an apprentice.

Just. Ew. We don't need 14 year old Anders and 24 yr old Karl ><  plus wouldn't that be a bit old to be an apprentice? Pretty sure they tranquil you if you haven't mastered the basic skills in a certain amount of time. That's what had Jowan scared (iirc)

I tend to think Anders is pushing 40 near end game (for whatever that's worth. I *carded* a 40 yr old last night because I thought he looked so young). He also seems to look older in the final Gallows convo. But that could just be the lighting in there

edit: lighting not lightning. curse you elenilote and your making me think of FF

Karl does have a head full of grey hair and a grey beard, though. Maybe Karl has had an exceptionally hard life or just didn't age well. In my headcanon, (and his first name seems to point to it), Karl is from the Anderfels, and that's not an easy place to live.

Maybe Anders' Harrowing was delayed due to his escape attempts? Or maybe they let him be an apprentice for longer because of something else...? Maybe he didn't speak Ferelden? (Headcanon, ho!) :happy:

[SurelyForth]

pagerunner wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Of course, Karl makes me doubt this a little. He seems to be solidly upper 30's and I'd be more than a little squicked if there was a 10+ age difference between him and Anders considering they were together when Anders was an apprentice.

Considering that when Anders describes his relationship with Karl, he's talking about things the apprentices did to make things bearable, which sounds more like WITH EACH OTHER than anything else, I don't think there's meant to be as much of an age gap between them as everyone seems to assume.  The only indicator we've got here is character design, and I think we can all agree on a few things:

- Not a hell of a lot of resources are going to be spent on a character who appears in the game for maybe two minutes tops;
- Not everyone in the world is going to be a pretty bishie who looks like they're perpetually 15; and,
- The game engine in some respects is pretty lacking.  Talk to anyone about how Alistair looks in DA2 and then come back to me.

Also, never ever ever rely on the writers of ANYTHING to keep their math straight.  Ever.*  It's almost always what fails.  Calculating ages and timespans is the direction in which madness lies. 

I think we can assume for the sake of sanity and non-squickiness that Karl is not actually that much older -- I tend to assume he is a bit, but not by miles.

*I just read a painstakingly researched and incredibly well-written novel that still managed to screw up the death date of the first book's MAIN CHARACTER by ten years.  It's always time where these things stumble; I don't know why.  

See, my take was always that Karl wasn't that old AND that he and Anders were together as apprentices. But almost every other interpretation I've seen involves 30 year old Karl with his big ass beard and Barely Legal Anders, so I've convinced myself that I was off. 

I can easily admit I am horrible with guessing ages. I always defaulted to 25/26 for Anders because he's obviously lived some, but he's not that mature in Awakening (and that could even be attributed to living in the Circle for so long).

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Sometimes people just don't look their age. When I was 23, I worked with a guy who everyone assumed was 35-38. Turned out he was ALSO 23. Actually, he was six months younger than me. Awkwaaaaaard.

Now, fortunately, [coughcough] years later he still looks pretty much exactly the same. Maybe his real age will catch up with his appearance, at some point. The thing is... I've known guys who were in their 30s and looked like Karl. I knew a guy who was completely grey at 28, a la Steve Martin. Also: beards add 10 years. They just do. A lot of the baby-faced dudes I know maintain a constant beard to prevent from getting carded. I don't make the age guessing math rules, people!

My assumption is that Karl was about five to seven years older than Anders, which is really not that bad. An eighteen-year-old and a twenty-five-year-old isn't that weird. I also assume Karl wasn't actually Anders' first time at the rodeo, more he was the first time anyone made him think about seriously maintaining a relationship, the first time he had any pesky feelings. Then again, I'm also fine with the interpretation that Karl is actually pretty much just Anders age, and looks older. What pagerunner says about design and assets is entirely true... it's also possible that the "lover" subplot to the whole Karl affair wasn't added until later on, to sort of "inform" the bisexuality in a clear way... and by that time the character design would have been long-ago finalized.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 25 juin 2011 - 06:08 .

[Evilnor]

My headcanon basically has Anders and Karl at about 10yrs difference, just from the character designs, my estimate of Anders in his mid-20's, and the idea that people can go grey early in life. I've known couples with about that age difference and everyone's perfectly fine with it. Heck, my parents had 6 years difference, and I remember growing up thinking how wide that age gap was, until I figured out that kids don't know squat. It's entirely likely that the age difference didn't matter to them at the time (if indeed there was much of one). We just don't have enough details to know undoubtedly, so any speculation is fair game, imo.

[berelinde]

Karl does seem to be at least somewhat older than Anders. Even his voice sounds older. He has also been through his Harrowing. Do we know whether Anders has?

Something about the relationship between Karl and Anders does set off a benign "not quite right" vibe, at least for me. To me, it seemed as if the relationship between them, while not exactly scandalous, wasn't quite acceptable, even by Circle standards. When Anders says that Karl was his first, I interpreted that to mean that Karl was his first relationship that wasn't just youthful fumbling. Maybe Karl was a Harrowed mage and Anders was still an apprentice. Their relationship with Anders might have been his first experience with loss. I don't mean that their relationship was ended by Karl being sent to Kirkwall. I mean that he might have been starting to have feelings for Karl, but Karl warned him off on the grounds that they would both be hurt if their relationship went beyond mutually satisfied needs. Something Anders may have had trouble understanding.

So I would put Anders at "barely legal" and Karl in his mid-to-late 20s.

[DreamerM]

Sialater wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

I just finished my first playthrough with my!Hawke.

I spared Anders's life. I didn't think I was going to, but I did. I sent him away, but after a few difficult sans-healer battles getting to the Gallows, I decided to let him rejoin the group when he showed up at the Circle. Although I didn't really want to look at him.

I did break up with him then, though.

And yet, he stayed with me in the epilogue. I wonder what would be going through his mind, slogging around after a woman who said, in pretty explicit terms, that she wasn't going to be #2 in his life, wouldn't forgive him, and didn't love him anymore.

He says he couldn't be with you if you weren't going to support his Mage Freedom Weather Underground Revolution thing. I wonder...

The staying with you is a glitch. I think he stays with you sometimes even if he's dead.

Although, if it wasn't...that would make a heartbreaking story. *contemplates*

Hey... now... I have enough plot bunnies without y'all suggesting more.  

But but but......prompt?

As to the age debate, Karl may not be as old as he looks. He's just one of those guys who grew a huge bushy beard because he could.

I'd say AWAKENING Anders is probably older then he acted, which would put him around 30ish when DA:2 starts. Which actually puts him RIGHT at the Creepy Line if Hawke is younger then 22. (Hawke can be between 19-24).

Remember the "Creepy Line," people. If you're wondering if someone is too young for you, divide your age in half and add 7. If the person's older then that, you're good to go. Younger then that, congratulations, you're a creeper!

[DreamerM]

berelinde wrote...

Karl does seem to be at least somewhat older than Anders. Even his voice sounds older. He has also been through his Harrowing. Do we know whether Anders has?

Yes Anders passed his Harrowing. That's why he could run away from the Tower so many times.. The Templar can't kill him because he's not a blood mage, and they can't make him Tranquil because he passed his Harrowing. All the Templars could do to him would be to just chase after him and bring him back.

The "Pass your Harrowing, no be made Tranquil" thing is actually supposedly one of the Chantry's own laws, something that's supposed to be an ironclad rule of a Mage Circle. Meredith and Co. are breaking the law.

[River5]

Toastyblue2 wrote...

ashyraine wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I'd say that Alistair is quite a bit younger than Anders. Isn't he only 20/21 in Origins?

I've said this a million times before, but I always pegged Anders as being 25/26 in Awakening. Nate is 30, Alistair is 23ish by then, and he seems definitely in between the two of them, both by his appearance and his personality. If he started escaping as an apprentice, he could have had several under his belt before he took his Harrowing (or even made multiple attempts in one year). And Gamlen calls him "boy" in the third act, which would seem strange if Anders was almost 40.

Of course, Karl makes me doubt this a little. He seems to be solidly upper 30's and I'd be more than a little squicked if there was a 10+ age difference between him and Anders considering they were together when Anders was an apprentice.

Just. Ew. We don't need 14 year old Anders and 24 yr old Karl ><  plus wouldn't that be a bit old to be an apprentice? Pretty sure they tranquil you if you haven't mastered the basic skills in a certain amount of time. That's what had Jowan scared (iirc)

I tend to think Anders is pushing 40 near end game (for whatever that's worth. I *carded* a 40 yr old last night because I thought he looked so young). He also seems to look older in the final Gallows convo. But that could just be the lighting in there

edit: lighting not lightning. curse you elenilote and your making me think of FF

Karl does have a head full of grey hair and a grey beard, though. Maybe Karl has had an exceptionally hard life or just didn't age well. In my headcanon, (and his first name seems to point to it), Karl is from the Anderfels, and that's not an easy place to live.

Maybe Anders' Harrowing was delayed due to his escape attempts? Or maybe they let him be an apprentice for longer because of something else...? Maybe he didn't speak Ferelden? (Headcanon, ho!) :happy:

My partner comes from a family where they all begin dyeing their hair around the age of 18.  Lol!  At least, that's the age where his brother and sister started (they have dark brown hair, so the white hair showed quite a bit!).

He's the luckiest one because he has naturally blond hair...  But, at 32, they are almost completely grey/white now.

Of course, with his clear blue eyes and babyface he still looks like a teenager despite the grey hair, but that's besides the point.

So, if I take my own man as a reference, Karl could easily be no older than 30.  A beard can often make one look older too.

[berelinde]

DreamerM wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Karl does seem to be at least somewhat older than Anders. Even his voice sounds older. He has also been through his Harrowing. Do we know whether Anders has?

Yes Anders passed his Harrowing. That's why he could run away from the Tower so many times.. The Templar can't kill him because he's not a blood mage, and they can't make him Tranquil because he passed his Harrowing. All the Templars could do to him would be to just chase after him and bring him back.

The "Pass your Harrowing, no be made Tranquil" thing is actually supposedly one of the Chantry's own laws, something that's supposed to be an ironclad rule of a Mage Circle. Meredith and Co. are breaking the law.

Thanks. I thought he had, but my brain is working only sporadically today, so I could not recall the details.

[Amondra]

berelinde wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Karl does seem to be at least somewhat older than Anders. Even his voice sounds older. He has also been through his Harrowing. Do we know whether Anders has?

Yes Anders passed his Harrowing. That's why he could run away from the Tower so many times.. The Templar can't kill him because he's not a blood mage, and they can't make him Tranquil because he passed his Harrowing. All the Templars could do to him would be to just chase after him and bring him back.

The "Pass your Harrowing, no be made Tranquil" thing is actually supposedly one of the Chantry's own laws, something that's supposed to be an ironclad rule of a Mage Circle. Meredith and Co. are breaking the law.

Thanks. I thought he had, but my brain is working only sporadically today, so I could not recall the details.

I think this is what started me hating the Chantry more then anything.  Irving in the first game said something that made sense " The circle protects us from them as much as it protects them from us."  

I agreed to some point, as I could see people over reacting to mages, and a mage having to run or defend themselves, and if someone died because of that, well now being a mage, it goes past selfdefense and well it is a whole new mess.

But when I did Anders quest when I first got to Kirkwall I was pissed.   The whole game Meredeith is basically breaking the laws and no one(Grand Cleric) does anything! They just sit on their asses with their noses in the air,

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Sialater wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

I just finished my first playthrough with my!Hawke.

I spared Anders's life. I didn't think I was going to, but I did. I sent him away, but after a few difficult sans-healer battles getting to the Gallows, I decided to let him rejoin the group when he showed up at the Circle. Although I didn't really want to look at him.

I did break up with him then, though.

And yet, he stayed with me in the epilogue. I wonder what would be going through his mind, slogging around after a woman who said, in pretty explicit terms, that she wasn't going to be #2 in his life, wouldn't forgive him, and didn't love him anymore.

He says he couldn't be with you if you weren't going to support his Mage Freedom Weather Underground Revolution thing. I wonder...

The staying with you is a glitch. I think he stays with you sometimes even if he's dead.

Although, if it wasn't...that would make a heartbreaking story. *contemplates*

Hey... now... I have enough plot bunnies without y'all suggesting more.  

Rejected!Anders is something I enjoy perhaps a little too much. Whether he's dumped at the end of the game or spurned (especially spurned for Fenris), there's something about that pathos that hits me right in the sweet spot, especially because he secretly kind of wants it that way. For an Anders who is completely unromanced, I can actually imagine him being kind of relieved Hawke didn't pick him, by act three. Rejected after the game, though... that's another story altogether, and an interesting one.

This may be my Fengirl friend's influence. She was a big fan of Anders in Awakening, but ended up falling into the Fenris trap in DA2, and she's one of the "Hawke's lines in the relationship make Hawke + Anders sooo unhealthy" types. So while I'm reading my cute little Anders + Hawke fics, I gush with her about lonely Anders.

For DreamerM's little after-game adventure, I can picture it happening this way: the companions start off in a big group, fleeing the city together, and one by one they split off, until Anders and Hawke are just all that's left. And Hawke is half-expecting Anders to take the hint and leave, but he has literally nowhere else to go, and so clings to this idea of Hawke. Sort of an "I'll stay with her until I find somewhere else to go, someone else to go with," but, let's face it, that isn't going to happen. And Hawke feels kind of almost... guilty for not killing him, because that might have been kinder to both of them, at this point.

Of course, for me, at the end of every horrible Anders angst story where he doesn't end up with Hawke (or dead), there's an offscreen Warden waiting to pick up the pieces, or at least offer some psychological help. Because I can't tear a character open that horribly without having some means to sew them back together.

[DreamerM]

Amondra wrote...

But when I did Anders quest when I first got to Kirkwall I was pissed.   The whole game Meredeith is basically breaking the laws and no one(Grand Cleric) does anything! They just sit on their asses with their noses in the air,

I think that's correct. Elthina was careful not to contradict or confront Meredith in public about her "meathods" but the whole reason the Knight Commanders are subordinate to the Clerics is to ensure that Chantry Law is being followed. If Meredith was breaking CHANTRY LAW then Elthina really, really should have called her out on it. Everybody would have been better off.

[Evilnor]

DreamerM wrote...

Amondra wrote...

But when I did Anders quest when I first got to Kirkwall I was pissed.   The whole game Meredeith is basically breaking the laws and no one(Grand Cleric) does anything! They just sit on their asses with their noses in the air,

I think that's correct. Elthina was careful not to contradict or confront Meredith in public about her "meathods" but the whole reason the Knight Commanders are subordinate to the Clerics is to ensure that Chantry Law is being followed. If Meredith was breaking CHANTRY LAW then Elthina really, really should have called her out on it. Everybody would have been better off.

Aah, but the injustice of the situation makes a better case for the player to support Anders in spite of his crazy abomination status.  You can point a finger and go "but he's right!" at all the anti-mage people.  It's a concrete sign of mage oppresion.

Besides, Elthina seems either too apathetic or too scared to really do anything about Meredith throughout the entire game.  She put Meredith there in the first place, too, which makes me start to wonder if there might not be some ulterior motive, or even blackmail, in keeping her there as well.

[Wulfram]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Yeah. That's the issue with placing your job in the hands of a god that, according to your own religion, has abandoned you - it doesn't get done. Elthina baffles me a little. I'm not sure whether she's avoiding confrontation out of spinelessness or because she genuinely believes that, if left alone, the world will simply rearrange itself into flowers and rainbows where everyone works out their issues peacefully and gathers 'round the bonfire, singing tunes of friendship and solidarity because goodness gracious woman, aren't you too old for that crap?

It may be because she realises that the Templars are on the verge of rebellion , and she doesn't want to provoke a world war by pointless gestures when careful diplomacy has a chance of working.

And it did have a chance of working.  That's why Anders needed to kill her.  edit: because his problem isn't with Meredith, it's with the system which any compromise would preserve.

Modifié par Wulfram, 25 juin 2011 - 08:15 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

I think that's correct. Elthina was careful not to contradict or confront Meredith in public about her "meathods" but the whole reason the Knight Commanders are subordinate to the Clerics is to ensure that Chantry Law is being followed. If Meredith was breaking CHANTRY LAW then Elthina really, really should have called her out on it. Everybody would have been better off.

Yeah. That's the issue with placing your job in the hands of a god that, according to your own religion, has abandoned you - it doesn't get done. Elthina baffles me a little. I'm not sure whether she's avoiding confrontation out of spinelessness or because she genuinely believes that, if left alone, the world will simply rearrange itself into flowers and rainbows where everyone works out their issues peacefully and gathers 'round the bonfire, singing tunes of friendship and solidarity because goodness gracious woman, aren't you too old for that crap?

I think that this is exactly why Elthina doesn't act.

She clearly expresses the idea that the Maker will fix everything, that everything that happens is part of the Maker's plan. Sebastian reinforces this in his banters, expresses the idea that nobody is free, that the misery of mages isn't beyond what the Maker asks of everyone. It seems like everyone in the Chantry falls into one of two camps: those who believe that they are the Maker's will made manifest, and those who believe everything is part of the Maker's plan. And somehow the ones who believe they're the Maker's will are always vicious, dogmatic ****s.

It's a perfect system for winning (and maintaining) people's respect, as a few short weeks on these boards have shown me. Have your religion's "face men" be smiling, gentle-hearted fatalists who bless and comfort but don't ever actually change anything. Don't actually publish hate for mages, or say that it is your doctrine, simply refuse to contradict those who interpret your chant in that manner. And let your brutal soldiers do as they will, filled with hate and spite and viciousness, but keep your own robes clean, comforting, assuring people that not all Templars are like that, it's just a few bad apples... but doing nothing about picking out those bad apples before they spoil the barrel.

I don't think Elthina is on to this elaborate system of no checks and weighted balances, but she's a part of it. If she was aware of the game she was playing she'd be much, much less effective at it. Instead, she simply, purely, gently believes that the Maker's will is being done, that the Maker will punish those Templars who step out of bounds. Her "innocence" is why the system works. It's also why it must be destroyed.

[Amondra]

Evilnor wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Amondra wrote...

But when I did Anders quest when I first got to Kirkwall I was pissed.   The whole game Meredeith is basically breaking the laws and no one(Grand Cleric) does anything! They just sit on their asses with their noses in the air,

I think that's correct. Elthina was careful not to contradict or confront Meredith in public about her "meathods" but the whole reason the Knight Commanders are subordinate to the Clerics is to ensure that Chantry Law is being followed. If Meredith was breaking CHANTRY LAW then Elthina really, really should have called her out on it. Everybody would have been better off.

Aah, but the injustice of the situation makes a better case for the player to support Anders in spite of his crazy abomination status.  You can point a finger and go "but he's right!" at all the anti-mage people.  It's a concrete sign of mage oppresion.

Besides, Elthina seems either too apathetic or too scared to really do anything about Meredith throughout the entire game.  She put Meredith there in the first place, too, which makes me start to wonder if there might not be some ulterior motive, or even blackmail, in keeping her there as well.

The idea of Elthina being a secretly evil or just having her own agenda is kinda creepy.  But really it's annoying how there is this massive hole in her character, she projects everything good about the Chantry, but does nothing to stop someoone from tarnishing the name?

All off Kirkwall seems corrupt in with it's leaders, even the Captain of the guard until Aveline takes over.  Hell even the Viscount.  As he only got voted in because the Templars liked him.  That whole city could make someone go ape ****.

[Evilnor]

Amondra wrote...


All off Kirkwall seems corrupt in with it's leaders, even the Captain of the guard until Aveline takes over.  Hell even the Viscount.  As he only got voted in because the Templars liked him.  That whole city could make someone go ape ****.

I think the sheer number of blood mages in Kirkwall is testament to that.

Modifié par Evilnor, 25 juin 2011 - 08:43 .