57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Dunizel]

DreamerM wrote...

I have a very simple question. Is it possible to rival Anders on a pro-mage playthrough?Lots of metagaming involved, I imagine...

It is very possible, and not much metagaming. Just be sure in the first chapter to bring him in quest were you plan to take pro-templar choices. I personally wanted to send Grace to the Circle, for starters. And since it doesn't change much, you can send even Feynriel. You will decide his fate later anyway.
Aside those two quests, I just got rivalry points talking to him.
Oh, and if you plan to oppose Merrill's use of blood magic, don't bring Anders. 
 
It is extremely easy to get points with Anders, so by the start of the second chapter you will probably be able to take whatever choice you want, and you don't even need to be a douch talking with him. Too bad the game and Anders don't recognize that you are pro-mage, or neutral, but well, it is your Hawke story, so RP like you want it

Edit: Argh, ToP...I'll shamelessly post my art, hope you don't mind...but I don't have much time to search and choose images

Dooniveh

Modifié par Dunizel, 26 juin 2011 - 01:44 .

[Sialater]

Why would we mind? That's gorgeous.

[SurelyForth]

legbamel wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
I think by "much delayed" it meant not that she would have been younger, but that they judge she should have gone though one a long time ago if she's gonna practice magic like she's a full-fledged mage....which she was before she got there.

They put her through a Harrowing right away? Add that to list of proof that the Circle was being grossly mismanaged. Not all Apostates get access to the quality training Bethany got, and I'd think that the first thing they'd do when they "acquire" an apostate is figure out their level of skill and control over their powers, and then put them through a period of formal training before they subject them to a potentially-fatal Harrowing.

There's a codex entry that says the Kirkwall Circle has a higher percentage of failed Harrowings then is usual. I'm not surprised if they throw apostates into Harrowings with little-to-no preperation. It's a good thing Bethany kind of pwns.

I wonder if that was something Meredith forced on Orsino because Cullen was trying to protect her.  If she passes, fine.  If she doesn't, she dies.  Abominations would be vulnerable while changing if it weren't for cut-scene armor.

Kerras has Meredith's ear and thinks that mages who have had any freedom should be put to death/made tranquil without question. I'd wager that it's only Cullen's compassion and Bethany's willingness to comply peacefully when she's taken that gets her a Harrowing. Meredith probably wants her to fail.

[Giggles_Manically]

You know they dropped the ball with Cullen here.

First.... I hate that Hawke just simply lets him take Bethany.
Then when Act 2 rolls around we talk like we are old pals..... when my canon full well wanted to disembowel Cullen, slowly.

I hate how Act 2 forgets you have a sibling.

[Sialater]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You know they dropped the ball with Cullen here.

First.... I hate that Hawke just simply lets him take Bethany.
Then when Act 2 rolls around we talk like we are old pals..... when my canon full well wanted to disembowel Cullen, slowly.

I hate how Act 2 forgets you have a sibling.

I think they were assuming that in three years Hawke would forgive a guy who was just doing his job.  Or at least act like he had.

[kromify]

hawke didn't really have a choice since bethany pretty much wanted to go by that point. she found it kind of a relief.
and cullen is a good templar in the story! he believes in the templars purpose because of his experiences, and yet has not turned cruel. a normal mage who toes the line and doesn't turn to blood magic, such as bethany, would be perfectly safe under his care. just imagine if she'd been taken in by alrik or kerras.

i really hope the writers bring him back in da3 as a companion, though i suspect his role would be too similar to cassandras.

[legbamel]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
In my head-canon, Bethany paralyzes Hawke with a glyph before she gets the chance to stop Cullen. And then Hawke tries keeping on good terms with the templars afterwards to make sure no one takes anything out on Bethany because of her.

Though you should probably have the option to not be so friendly with him - he is so cordial towards and familiar with Hawke you'd think they go out for drinks every weekend.

They do.  In my head canon Hawke appreciates that Cullen protected Bethany as best he can and that random Templars don't come visit her at night like some other darling mages we could name.  Plus he appreciated our help in keep him from having to go to the Blooming Rose any more.  That boy is SHY!

Modifié par legbamel, 26 juin 2011 - 02:40 .

[Maaia]

On the creeper discussion, has anyone read A Song of Ice and Fire? Chock full of creeper-ness which squicks my modern Western sensibilities on a routine basis. Not saying that the writers were "inspired" by *that* aspect of ASOIAF, but...medieval culture was most likely not age sensitive as we are now. Pretty sure life expectancy was a lot shorter, too.

That being said, Karl just looks prematurely gray to me; he may be a few years older though. I peg Anders at late 20s at the beginning of DA2. I tend to peg my Hawkes at 22-ish. I saw my Warden as being around 18.

Modifié par Maaia, 26 juin 2011 - 05:59 .

[Evilnor]

Yeah, medieval values on marriage and stuff have men in their 30's+ marrying girls who've just had their first period (which some girls have as young as 8). Girls were often forced to marry as soon as they could have children, not to mention the extra pressure on the family to provide a dowry. Also, average life expectancy was usually into the 30's or 40's, and women often died in childbirth. "Marrying for love" wasn't really an option, which is probably why romantic troubadours gained such popularity. Isn't perspective grand?

That said, Dragon Age tends to follow a more modern approach to marriage rather than a medieval one, probably to make it more approachable for the players. The closest we come to a canon "creeper" marriage is Isabella's backstory.

Also, I can just picture an escaped Anders playing troubadour to a young lady who'd been forced to marry an ugly old man. Maybe it wouldn't matter how bad he was at playing the lute, then?

[highcastle]

As far as rivaling Anders while being pro Mage goes, while possible, his dialogue will assume that you hand mages over to the Templars on a consistent basis...which pretty much kills immersion. This is why I think Bioware should scrap the friendship/rivalry system and just have companions respond to you based on your stance on a wide variety of issues. In other words, an "under the hood" friendship/rivalry system for every belief they hold dear. So Anders might support your stance on mages, but get upset if you disapprove of the merger with Justice. It'd be a more natural system, I think.

[DreamerM]

Yeah, Dragon Age is pretty dark and brutal in some ways, but at least they try and keep their characters "legal." I guess justifying having child-brides around to Fox News, historical or not, is not a battle that BioWare is gonna fight...

They couldn't get away with what Song of Ice and Fire gets away with. Although it was in enlightening to read that book and find out where, basically, the whole concept of blood magic came from...

[kromify]

setting flags for certain events that trigger conversations would be good. but the friend/rival system is better than most games have so i can't be too critical.

[Giggles_Manically]

Well it does kind of fit for me.

Anders does tend to assume that anyone who does not stand totally with him, is against him.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Also, remember that Shakespeare's Juliet is thirteen. THIRTEEN. The idea of a period of adolescence encompassing the time during the development of biological maturity but before complete mental maturity is a relatively new one. It only really properly started as a cultural institution in the 1940s and 50s.

Now, of course Bioware is going to at least ostensibly keep to conventional standards of age-appropriateness, at least in the content represented in game. There are all kind of reasons to do this, and very few reasons not to. Still, that doesn't mean Thedas shares our conventional wisdom.

Also, this debate always reminds me of an exchange in Red Dwarf. Rimmer and Lister are reminiscing together, and Lister asks Rimmer about losing his virginity. Rimmer, who was a bit of a late-bloomer, quickly scrambles to try to pick an age that would be both realistic and impressive, and picks seventeen, making up an experience in the back of his father's Bentley. Lister then begins reminiscing about his first time... a slightly older girl takes him out to a secluded spot on a local golf course and strips for him,
"She was so beautiful, I almost dropped my skateboard."
"Dropped your skateboard? How old were you!?"
"I was twelve."

As hilariously young as that is, I never thought "oh man, inappropriate!" rather I just found it hilarious that Lister's reality was so much more beyond the pale than Rimmer's most ludicrous imaginings. Some people are like Lister... completely incorrigible at an utterly insanely young age.

Edit: Aaaaand my brain has just recast that scenario as a conversation between Alistair and Anders. Ahahaha. Oh you, brain!

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 26 juin 2011 - 06:23 .

[highcastle]

Oh, I definitely agree that the friendship/rival system is better than most morality systems in games today. But the problem is that a system that measures only two directions can never be more than two dimensional. And Bioware has never been a company to settle for "good enough." and while it might make sense for Anders to assume if you're not with him you're against him, it's still jarring to hear him call you out for handing mages to the Templars when you've let every apostate go.

[legbamel]

#1: Red Dwarf is made of awesome.
#2: Romeo is, what, fifteen? I refuse to hit up Google for that. But the point is that the age differences for him and Lister were pretty small.

That said, I still don't get a creeper vibe from Karl. And if they aren't going to have Merrill be as fourteen as she seems emotionally then they're hardly going to canon a fourteen/twenty-five gay relationship. I deduce by this that Anders was at least eighteen when he started a physical relationship with Karl. Fox News demands it!

[Addai]

Evilnor wrote...

Yeah, medieval values on marriage and stuff have men in their 30's+ marrying girls who've just had their first period (which some girls have as young as 8). Girls were often forced to marry as soon as they could have children, not to mention the extra pressure on the family to provide a dowry. Also, average life expectancy was usually into the 30's or 40's, and women often died in childbirth. "Marrying for love" wasn't really an option, which is probably why romantic troubadours gained such popularity. Isn't perspective grand?

That said, Dragon Age tends to follow a more modern approach to marriage rather than a medieval one, probably to make it more approachable for the players. The closest we come to a canon "creeper" marriage is Isabella's backstory.

Also, I can just picture an escaped Anders playing troubadour to a young lady who'd been forced to marry an ugly old man. Maybe it wouldn't matter how bad he was at playing the lute, then?

Sorry to butt in nerdily, but it's not really true that most people married early and unwillingly.  Nobles might have to make such a marriage- there was a risk in leaving a girl unmarried too long, and she was a powerful bargaining chip- but the average folk tended to marry when the man had completed an apprenticeship (mid or late 20s) and the woman was late teens or early 20s.  It was well known that women had a better chance of surviving childbirth if they were not just out of puberty.  Because they'd have to pay merchet or dowry, it was also better to keep a girl at home for a while so she could add to the household economy.  Even if it was expected that most people marry, that doesn't mean they married a stranger or unwillingly.  There was effort to make sure marriages were consensual- it was a church law- and the church also provided a place where women had a career path outside marriage and childbirth if they wanted that.  Women could also ply a trade, though they most often did so with their husbands or as widows taking over a husband's trade.

Courtly romantic stories weren't popular because people were miserable, but just because it was a literary fashion.  At least, no more miserable than those of us who like romantic stories these days. 

[DreamerM]

highcastle wrote...

Oh, I definitely agree that the friendship/rival system is better than most morality systems in games today. But the problem is that a system that measures only two directions can never be more than two dimensional. And Bioware has never been a company to settle for "good enough." and while it might make sense for Anders to assume if you're not with him you're against him, it's still jarring to hear him call you out for handing mages to the Templars when you've let every apostate go.

This. Alright, I'm convinced. No rivalling Anders on a pro-mage playthrough. Makes too little sense.

...Ya know, if Anders was gonna be this one-note of a guy, then that's another reason why his character really SHOULD NOT have been an Abomination. It's perfectly reasonable to be just fine with apostate mages, but to think possessions are bad news.

If they keep the Friendship/rivalry system, I hope they fine-tune it, at the very least.

I am looking forward to finally playing as Garrett, a mage dude who hates everything. And I do mean anything.

[SurelyForth]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Also, remember that Shakespeare's Juliet is thirteen. THIRTEEN. The idea of a period of adolescence encompassing the time during the development of biological maturity but before complete mental maturity is a relatively new one. It only really properly started as a cultural institution in the 1940s and 50s.

I'd be hardpressed to think of someone that proves the immaturity of youth MORE than Juliet. 

And I'm, personally, not of the mindset of a pre-40's time period and, therefore, I am not comfortable with the idea of Karl being significantly older or hooking up with Anders when Anders was younger. Instead of hating on Karl, or trying to look for deep psychological reasons why Anders would want to be with an older man, I've decided to go with what's probably the reality: Anders is older than I originally thought and Karl isn't supposed to be as old as he looks. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 juin 2011 - 06:39 .

[kromify]

Addai67 wrote...

snips awesome post

don't suppose you've read pillars of the earth, or world without end? they are well written and very immersive if you enjoy books

[CulturalGeekGirl]

highcastle wrote...

Oh, I definitely agree that the friendship/rival system is better than most morality systems in games today. But the problem is that a system that measures only two directions can never be more than two dimensional. And Bioware has never been a company to settle for "good enough." and while it might make sense for Anders to assume if you're not with him you're against him, it's still jarring to hear him call you out for handing mages to the Templars when you've let every apostate go.

I agree with this. I also want the opportunity to support Fenris on his quest to eliminate people who specifically wronged him (because in general I'm pretty OK with revenge), while getting him to lighten the freak up about mages. The other problem I have with the friendship/rivalry system is the danger of neutrality... I find myself metagaming to keep people (and by people, I generally mean Fenris and Merril) out of neutral far more than I metagamed in any other system.

Basically, I think that it might work well if there are two systems... "connection" or "involvement," and then a subordinate system for guiding their views on specific principles. Connection is how much you interact with the person: do you have all their conversations, do their quests, take them on quests that are relevant to them, give them gifts, etc. The only time you "lose" connection is when you do something they harshly disagree with on one of their own personal quests, and then there may often be a dialogue to mute that blow after.

Then, every person has two "issues" upon which you can sway their opinions (or at least create tension between the two of you.)

For Anders it would be "Mage Freedom" and "Spirit Merger." For Fenris, "Revenge" and "Magephobia." Maintaining consistency on these issues in conversations with them would sway their opinions, and cementing their opinions in one direction or the other would cause a substantial boost in "connection." 

That's my game design brain's quick sketch of a potential system, anyway.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 26 juin 2011 - 06:49 .

[Addai]

kromify wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

snips awesome post

don't suppose you've read pillars of the earth, or world without end? they are well written and very immersive if you enjoy books

I've had Pillars of the Earth on my shelf for a while- haven't gotten to it, but we did watch the miniseries.  I liked it.  (Rufus Sewell FTW) Kristin Lavransdatter is my favorite historical fiction series.  There are scenes from that which make me tear up just thinking about them.