57020 réponses à ce sujet

[ekurian]

You know, with all this profound debating and what not, I think I'll just throw this out there:

Anyone else want a fluff mod? Like the IRS Alistair mod for DA:O?

Because I want to take a bath with Anders, damnit.

[panamakira]

Rheia1234 wrote...

It really was a giant trainwreck with all those influences affecting their decisions. All rationailty was left behind and the raw feeling of survival was all that was left. Dealing with the deepest instincts, without rational thought, can lead to dire consequences on all parts.

Yep~ Everybody was influenced by something. Even the mages in Kirkwall with the Veil being weak from all the abuse of blood magic. I don't know. Everyone take a step back for a minute and think.

Meredith and Orsino had to die and Anders should have waited for Hawke a bit more for him/her to get those heavy nasty influences out of the way.

But we all know how patient Justice was.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Trophonius wrote...

Of course, there are self-hating whackjobs like Keilli who thinks that her magical abilities are a curse and would rather be made tranquil.

God, she pissed me off.  Then again, the one quality my two protagonists for the DA franchise have in common (other than both being mages) is their strength of will.  The mages of the Amell family don't take crap.  So characters like that don't sit well with either of them.

And I 100% support an Anders fluff mod.  I want more abomination snuggles, dammit!

[Eydris Ivo]

panamakira wrote...

Rheia1234 wrote...

It really was a giant trainwreck with all those influences affecting their decisions. All rationailty was left behind and the raw feeling of survival was all that was left. Dealing with the deepest instincts, without rational thought, can lead to dire consequences on all parts.

Yep~ Everybody was influenced by something. Even the mages in Kirkwall with the Veil being weak from all the abuse of blood magic. I don't know. Everyone take a step back for a minute and think.

Meredith and Orsino had to die and Anders should have waited for Hawke a bit more for him/her to get those heavy nasty influences out of the way.

But we all know how patient Justice was.

Exactly. That is how the possession affected him. Really, all the main players were possessed (Idol, blood magic, etc.). Hell, even Hawke probably was an emotional mess after all the events in the last few years. A human being can only take so much before rationaility vanishes.

[Eydris Ivo]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

Of course, there are self-hating whackjobs like Keilli who thinks that her magical abilities are a curse and would rather be made tranquil.

God, she pissed me off.  Then again, the one quality my two protagonists for the DA franchise have in common (other than both being mages) is their strength of will.  The mages of the Amell family don't take crap.  So characters like that don't sit well with either of them.

And I 100% support an Anders fluff mod.  I want more abomination snuggles, dammit!

Anders fluff mod. *signed*

[ekurian]

Heck, I think I'll start writing and drawing fluff to keep myself happy. There's that gap between Act 2 and Act 3 that we just get codex entries about Anders 'being a devoted lover' and saying that 'Hawke is the only thing keeping him sane'.

Oh, the things my mind could do with that sort of thing oWo

[Aeowyn]

I know that Cme who made the IRS Alistair mod will do something similar with Anders if they release a toolset.

[highcastle]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The average citizen on Thedas sees a mage and is extremely scared because of what they can do, which we already know is mind control, untold destruction and reanimate the dead to name a few. This leads to lots of paranoia among the people, where if a crop doesn't work out or if a house is burned down they'd most likely blame a mage and execute them.

This isn't fiction either, we've heard it from Wynne herself in Origins. She explains that for every mage that makes it to the Circle, there's many more who'd never see it. How does this factor into this? It's because we've got mages with short sighted goals, they see freedom and cling to all it's principles and never see how it might impact them in the long term.

Anders himself is one of these people, he views the mages as the unjustified victim and that if they were freed we'd be in a situation where everything would be alright and no wrong could happen. He doesn't consider the implications of their freedom, he doesn't consider how the public will react, he doesn't consider how other mages might feel about the situation.

First, I think your arguement is well-reasoned and articulate. I just happen to disagree with you. I do think Anders is looking at the long-term. He knows this road won't be easy, but he also knows someone needs to take the first step (I'm not talking about agreeing with that first step right now, just that he's considered the implications of it). If Anders is romanced, he comments at the Gallows that change won't be easy, but in a hundred years or two hundred "someone like me will be able to love someone like you without anyone telling them it's wrong" (paraphrased here). To me, this illustrates he's thinking in the long-term.

I'll agree that he is somewhat selfish. He assumes most people would want their freedom. In his defense, though, he seems to be right. Look at Feynriel. The last thing he wants is to go to the Circle and risk being made Tranquil. Look at Grace and the Starkhaven mages. They're desperate to avoid going back. I'm having a hard time coming up with mages who actually wanted to be sent to the Circle once they were outside it.

He made a short sighted decision to destroy the Kirkwall Chantry and cause a war on the behalf of all mages throughout Thedas, he's never even considered the thought that the war might not end in his victory or that not all mages want to involved in their fight for freedom. He's deluded by Justice / Vengeance that he can't even see anything except for his hatred of the Templar in act 2 / 3.

Again, I don't think this decision is short-sighted. I do think it's heavily influenced by Vengeance, though. But this is something he seems to have been planning for quite some time. He sees it as the opening move, an action to spur other mages and neutral parties into action.

What will happen when the goal Anders wished to achieve backfires on him? If the mages lose this war, what will he have done? He will have caused justified hate toward the mages, he will have made the "oppression" he wanted to hate much more personal and no one will shed a tear as mages are hauled off to their prisons and/or executed.

... even if the mages claimed victory and defeated the templar / Chantry, what happens then? Will the entire continent become the Tevinter Imperium? Mages can never live with people as equals, the public will fight back and the mages will either be forced to oppress them and become their tyranical rulers (Tevinter Imperium) or be defeated by the public and forced to return to the Circle.

That's definitely the realistic/cynical view of things. I happen to agree with you, too. I don't see things working out happily for everyone. Someone's going to get oppressed. And that's just human nature; it has nothing to do with magic. But I don't know if Anders sees it that way. I think he's betting on victory. I don't know if he has a clear idea of what will happen next, just as long as the mages are free.

That being said, I don't think he advocates the oppression of the common people. When Isabela asks him about the public deserving justice in the event he kills thousands to secure freedom for the mages, Anders agrees they would indeed. He's for justice for all (except maybe Templars, though that's a discussion for another time). It's an inherently optimistic and ideal scenario here. I don't know if it's achievable (I'm a criminology student, by the way, so "ideal" versus "actual" justice are interesting concepts to me).

Tevinter Imperium-esque Thedas would also by hypocritical, mages want freedom by enslaving all of Thedas under their rule? Taking mage children away from their parents, something Anders hates that the templar do, to force them to learn magic and learn how to use it to their advantage? Blood magic, something people always say as being something mages resort to when they are cornered, becoming something that exists in common day activities (almost all Tevinter magi we've met in DA2 used demons / blood magic, what's their excuse?)?

Mage freedom is a noble gold, I can stand by Anders with that. I just don't see it as something that will ever happen. I side with the Templar and kill Anders in order to try and stop the war before it starts, I fail miserably but it won't stop me from trying.

This is all excluding the threat of Demons which is something we shouldn't ignore either.

I don't think Anders is advocating an Imperium-like institution for the rest of Thedas. He's curious about Tevinter, but he's also weary of it. It goes hand-in-hand with his anti-blood magic stance and anti-demon stance. It's too bad we never get to look at that manifesto of his, because I'm interested in hearing precisely what he wants to happen. If I were to guess based on his character and his attitudes, it would be something of a self-policing agency. Let mages watch other mages, perhaps in cooperation with the chantry or another organization. As long as the mages have a say in what happens to them, I think he would be happy.

Let's also remember the Kirkwall Circle is a really horrific place. Anders talks about beatings and rapes. We see Templars turning mages tranquil for the purpose of raping them. These types of offenses are indefensible regardless of the victims. And just because you're not sure what the right way to handle a problem is does not mean you should continue doing the wrong.

I think you raise some valid points, though. I don't think Anders has thought about what will happen should the war fail. I think he's banking on eventual success, though I do think he has some vague idea of what will happen next. Regardless, it's a very interesting situation and I really can't wait to see where BioWare takes it.

[Miri1984]

@Dave of Canada I suspect, as I said before, that Anders still believes there needs to be some sort of regulation for mages, (this is based on his conversations in Awakenings) he does say stuff about self-monitoring which I don't believe will work necessarily, and the Thrask situation makes me think that Templar training and supervision can still be implemented without limiting mage freedoms as much as the circles do. And there are many occasions during the game where you see that the common people are NOT all rampantly anti-mage and terrified. The Ferelden woman at the clinic, the woman who runs the mage underground quests, Thrask.

Mages are a weapon, same as any weapon, and as our many fights across Thedas prove, there are no shortage of bad guys willing to hire them to do their dirty jobs for them. They just happen to be sentient as well.

The most heartbreaking line in the entire game, I think, is when Anders says "For all their talk about control, the most common way for a Circle mage to die is by his own hand." It just speaks volumes about how miserable some of them are, and how backed into a corner. Told they're worthless from the day their powers manifest, locked up, abused, with death or tranquility a real threat right up until the Harrowing...

[ekurian]

Aeowyn wrote...

I know that Cme who made the IRS Alistair mod will do something similar with Anders if they release a toolset.

Ooohh I hope they do release a toolset. Even if they don't, hopefully some smart person will come up with a way to mod cutscenes and stuff like that

[Sable Rhapsody]

Rheia1234 wrote...

Hell, even Hawke probably was an emotional mess after all the events in the last few years. A human being can only take so much before rationaility vanishes.

Hawke eventually loses his/her brother, sister, mother, father, potentially some friends, and if Hawke sides with the mages, everything s/he worked for over a decade in Kirkwall is gone.  Yeesh.  Probably the only person whose life sucks more in a BioWare game is the Bhaalspawn.

It helps if you play a less empathetic and more cold and ruthless Hawke.  But even my Hawke, who was supposed to be an Azula-esque Villain Protagonist before Anders derailed that too, didn't emerge unchanged.  

[YamiSnuffles]

As to ways of making DA2 less depressing, I think my husband has discovered the best non-mod way so far. He's just running around as snarky, naked Hawke. It's almost impossible to take anything seriously while Hawke is standing in nothing but her underwear making ridiculous jokes. Oh, and flirting with everyone. He also went to the brothel with Carver tagging along. Carver's supreme shock and disgust was hilarious.

Essentially:
Carver: "What? You're going to do that here? Now?"
Hawke: "Yes now. Now shut up."

[Ninche]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The average citizen on Thedas sees a mage and is extremely scared because of what they can do, which we already know is mind control, untold destruction and reanimate the dead to name a few. This leads to lots of paranoia among the people, where if a crop doesn't work out or if a house is burned down they'd most likely blame a mage and execute them.

This isn't fiction either, we've heard it from Wynne herself in Origins. She explains that for every mage that makes it to the Circle, there's many more who'd never see it. How does this factor into this? It's because we've got mages with short sighted goals, they see freedom and cling to all it's principles and never see how it might impact them in the long term.

Anders himself is one of these people, he views the mages as the unjustified victim and that if they were freed we'd be in a situation where everything would be alright and no wrong could happen. He doesn't consider the implications of their freedom, he doesn't consider how the public will react, he doesn't consider how other mages might feel about the situation.

He made a short sighted decision to destroy the Kirkwall Chantry and cause a war on the behalf of all mages throughout Thedas, he's never even considered the thought that the war might not end in his victory or that not all mages want to involved in their fight for freedom. He's deluded by Justice / Vengeance that he can't even see anything except for his hatred of the Templar in act 2 / 3.

What will happen when the goal Anders wished to achieve backfires on him? If the mages lose this war, what will he have done? He will have caused justified hate toward the mages, he will have made the "oppression" he wanted to hate much more personal and no one will shed a tear as mages are hauled off to their prisons and/or executed.

... even if the mages claimed victory and defeated the templar / Chantry, what happens then? Will the entire continent become the Tevinter Imperium? Mages can never live with people as equals, the public will fight back and the mages will either be forced to oppress them and become their tyranical rulers (Tevinter Imperium) or be defeated by the public and forced to return to the Circle.

Tevinter Imperium-esque Thedas would also by hypocritical, mages want freedom by enslaving all of Thedas under their rule? Taking mage children away from their parents, something Anders hates that the templar do, to force them to learn magic and learn how to use it to their advantage? Blood magic, something people always say as being something mages resort to when they are cornered, becoming something that exists in common day activities (almost all Tevinter magi we've met in DA2 used demons / blood magic, what's their excuse?)?

Mage freedom is a noble gold, I can stand by Anders with that. I just don't see it as something that will ever happen. I side with the Templar and kill Anders in order to try and stop the war before it starts, I fail miserably but it won't stop me from trying.

This is all excluding the threat of Demons which is something we shouldn't ignore either.

First of all I don't believe the Tevinter and The Chantry are the ONLY two systems that could work in Thedas - they are just the oldest and most powerful ones. How did the elves live forever and with magic back in the day before the Tevinter without enslaving anyone or destroying anything? 

Secondly "let's not try anything because we might make it worse" is not a valid argument. Think of memorable events in our own history that have to do with human rights and freedoms and the wars they started and the decades of discrimination and abuse they brought afterwards. You would never bring back the feudal rule or the slavery back would you? I'm sure when people made the first decisions to fight it, everyone were scared to go to war, they were forced to and thanks to that some of us have acchieved relative freedom years later.

Sure Anders' plan might backfire and might ultimately lead to the extermination of a whole generation of mages and lead to the rule of tranquillity being performed on ALL of them for the rest of time. 

I think that chance for change is worth fighting for and dying for. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Miri1984 wrote...

The most heartbreaking line in the entire game, I think, is when Anders says "For all their talk about control, the most common way for a Circle mage to die is by his own hand."

That was the line that cemented my Hawke's support for Anders' cause, regardless of the means.  She didn't grow up in the Circle.  But Anders made her see that those miserable people chained in the Gallows could've been her. She could've been dead, Tranquil, raped, tortured; the only thing that separated her from that fate was someone willing to fight for her.  So she decided to become that person for other mages.

[nenosronhir]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The average citizen on Thedas sees a mage and is extremely scared because of what they can do, which we already know is mind control, untold destruction and reanimate the dead to name a few. This leads to lots of paranoia among the people, where if a crop doesn't work out or if a house is burned down they'd most likely blame a mage and execute them.

This isn't fiction either, we've heard it from Wynne herself in Origins. She explains that for every mage that makes it to the Circle, there's many more who'd never see it. How does this factor into this? It's because we've got mages with short sighted goals, they see freedom and cling to all it's principles and never see how it might impact them in the long term.

The general impression I get from this is that Templars don't take in grown apostates - they get labled maleficarum whether or not it's true (either for fleeing the Circle or having never been part of it in the first place). Anders is the one weird exception to the rule, it seems, as even Wynne's one-time apprentice was cut down and left for dead.

Anders himself is one of these people, he views the mages as the unjustified victim and that if they were freed we'd be in a situation where everything would be alright and no wrong could happen. He doesn't consider the implications of their freedom, he doesn't consider how the public will react, he doesn't consider how other mages might feel about the situation.

He made a short sighted decision to destroy the Kirkwall Chantry and cause a war on the behalf of all mages throughout Thedas, he's never even considered the thought that the war might not end in his victory or that not all mages want to involved in their fight for freedom. He's deluded by Justice / Vengeance that he can't even see anything except for his hatred of the Templar in act 2 / 3.

I'll agree insofar as he's been convinced by Justice/has convinced himself that his actions are the only ones that have the potential to bring about freedom - but I don't think he's deluded himself so completely to believe that his actions WILL bring about freedom. He mentions that he would rather die fighting, and I think his line of thought there extends to all mages; that he would rather see them all die fighting in this war than watch them remain mindless puppets of the Chantry and its Templars, and damn what the rest of them think (if his snapping at Orsino's outrage is any clue).

What will happen when the goal Anders wished to achieve backfires on him? If the mages lose this war, what will he have done? He will have caused justified hate toward the mages, he will have made the "oppression" he wanted to hate much more personal and no one will shed a tear as mages are hauled off to their prisons and/or executed.

... even if the mages claimed victory and defeated the templar / Chantry, what happens then? Will the entire continent become the Tevinter Imperium? Mages can never live with people as equals, the public will fight back and the mages will either be forced to oppress them and become their tyranical rulers (Tevinter Imperium) or be defeated by the public and forced to return to the Circle.

Tevinter Imperium-esque Thedas would also by hypocritical, mages want freedom by enslaving all of Thedas under their rule? Taking mage children away from their parents, something Anders hates that the templar do, to force them to learn magic and learn how to use it to their advantage? Blood magic, something people always say as being something mages resort to when they are cornered, becoming something that exists in common day activities (almost all Tevinter magi we've met in DA2 used demons / blood magic, what's their excuse?)?

Mages are only feared by the general populace because they have been fed as much Chantry doctrine as the mages themselves; and the only mages the general populace is ever exposed to are apostates and maleficarum, because theoretically all good little mages are in the Circle, tamed by the Templars, and therefore not a danger. Yes, mages have as much potential to do evil to the commonfolk as good(more, probably), but I'd like to argue that given enough time, there could be a new balance. Mages have never been given a chance for a common ground.

The Tevinter Imperium is another story, as all its culture spawns from the Tevinter of old. As a mageocracy where power rules, blood magic and demons are just means to an end, tools available like lyrium, but the rest of Thedas have their own culture, so it's possible mage freedom would not immediately result in another Imperium. This is pure optimism speaking, however, under the impression that mages themselves would step in to mediate any of their 'brethren' attempting to usurp power with their magic, in order to retain peace with the commonfolk.

Unfortunately, logic dictates that either the mages are going to be snuffed from existence and the Chantry will reign supreme, or vice-versa. Of course, there's always the potential that some third, unforeseen circumstance will throw a wrench into any plans, heh.

Mage freedom is a noble gold, I can stand by Anders with that. I just don't see it as something that will ever happen. I side with the Templar and kill Anders in order to try and stop the war before it starts, I fail miserably but it won't stop me from trying.

This is all excluding the threat of Demons which is something we shouldn't ignore either.

Ultimately, I agree with everything you've said, except I side with the Mages and let Anders live in a fit of painful optimism and the hopes that some great compromise can rise from the ashes of this war. XD

Modifié par nenosronhir, 22 mars 2011 - 10:20 .

[upsettingshorts]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Essentially:
Carver: "What? You're going to do that here? Now?"
Hawke: "Yes now. Now shut up."

No-one can resist Mark "Jethann" Meer.

[leggywillow]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Essentially:
Carver: "What? You're going to do that here? Now?"
Hawke: "Yes now. Now shut up."

No-one can resist Mark "Jethann" Meer.

OMG, was that really Mark Meer?

::listens::



Why is it that Mark Meer only voices the most ridiculous characters (besides Shepard)?

Modifié par leggywillow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:25 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Essentially:
Carver: "What? You're going to do that here? Now?"
Hawke: "Yes now. Now shut up."

No-one can resist Mark "Jethann" Meer.

BAHAHAH!  That was Mark Meer?  Oh, that man is such win.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 22 mars 2011 - 10:25 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Essentially:
Carver: "What? You're going to do that here? Now?"
Hawke: "Yes now. Now shut up."

No-one can resist Mark "Jethann" Meer.

Oh, god, I... I don't...

*takes hand gun, goes outside*

[Eydris Ivo]

One of the things I truly loved about Anders was his pure, unadulterated emotions. Not just sadness, but love, passion, anger...everything.

It makes him a really appealing, yet tragic character.

[panamakira]

Rheia1234 wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Rheia1234 wrote...

It really was a giant trainwreck with all those influences affecting their decisions. All rationailty was left behind and the raw feeling of survival was all that was left. Dealing with the deepest instincts, without rational thought, can lead to dire consequences on all parts.

Yep~ Everybody was influenced by something. Even the mages in Kirkwall with the Veil being weak from all the abuse of blood magic. I don't know. Everyone take a step back for a minute and think.

Meredith and Orsino had to die and Anders should have waited for Hawke a bit more for him/her to get those heavy nasty influences out of the way.

But we all know how patient Justice was.

Exactly. That is how the possession affected him. Really, all the main players were possessed (Idol, blood magic, etc.). Hell, even Hawke probably was an emotional mess after all the events in the last few years. A human being can only take so much before rationaility vanishes.

Heck yes, I so agree with this.

[Celestria129]

ekurian wrote...

You know, with all this profound debating and what not, I think I'll just throw this out there:

Anyone else want a fluff mod? Like the IRS Alistair mod for DA:O?

Because I want to take a bath with Anders, damnit.

Yes Please!

[heretica]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Essentially:
Carver: "What? You're going to do that here? Now?"
Hawke: "Yes now. Now shut up."

No-one can resist Mark "Jethann" Meer.

This needs a video.

[Eydris Ivo]

We interrupt this regularly scheduled thread for...

A GIF BREAK:

[nenosronhir]

Completely off-topic;

I just realised that Rogue Champion armor has bird-skull belt clasps. Wut.