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[CulturalGeekGirl]

Anders: Gemini

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I don't think it's possible to know whether or not he can be helped until we try all the most obvious methods, at the very least, and see if they result in any improvement. I don't think the merger was good, but I think that part of what made it bad was the fact that Anders thinks it's bad. His first reaction to the merger is 'this has gone horribly wrong' and less than a few months later, he's already decided that Justice is irrevocably corrupt, which I think hurts and angers Justice in a way that contributes to his decline. I think there may be a way to make it less bad for both of them.

I partially agree with this, but I do not see someone being able to make him come to terms with Justice, on their own. I think he needs specialized treatement and not just a few nice words. Because again, we have an entire context around him that directly worsens his problem, that you have to find some way to cut him off from it or come to terms with it, which I dont' see happening.

So I do not think any individual person, even lover, can just help him, even if they have the right ideas. It will require more than that. Much more than that.

And trying is nice, but we are talking about a mage who is potentially an abomination, who admits that he can end up hurting you (just like he came close to killing that innocent mage). The fact that he doesn't is mostly plot armor the same way a mage Hawke (or Warden) seems to be immune to demons. Of course, you might say love did it and I'd roll my eyes, but yea

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
In this case, there is clear evidence that you being present can and does help.

I see it as evidence that you can diffuse it when it errupts (now), but that's dealing with the symptoms. The codex made it clear, Anders was getting worse and losing control despite the romance.

The only place we see Anders in DA2 is in a place that may well be actively contributing to his symptoms (the whole Kirkwall is Hill House/Arkham/Silent Hill idea). It reminds me a lot of putting someone who isn't a hardened criminal in jail and watching them get worse, or sending someone who has Seasonal Affective Disorder to go live in Norway for the winter.

When I say help I'm not talking about just a few kind words, although talk therapy can help substantially when it comes to a lot of psychological problems, so I wouldn't throw it out wholesale.

The codex says that Anders is losing his struggle to gain complete mastery over Justice, and that is pretty much completely irrelevant to any of the things I want to try. My main strategy is focused on getting Justice to have ideals similar to the ideals he expressed in Awakening, where he outright rejects Velanna's idea that it's all right to go on a crusade against all humans simply because of what some humans have done to elves. The codex also says that Anders has become convinced that he is an abomination, and I think that convincing him otherwise is also an important part of any treatment (it's also not something anyone tries). I think that the Warden is probably your best bet for this, or at the very least someone from a culture that doesn't have the same blanket assumptions about spirit possession and abominations as mainstream Thedas human society does. Getting him to Rivain is a big possibility in my plans.

I do believe that the person who helps him would have to be either a well-educated mage, a Dalish elf, someone from Rivain (possibly), someone who is an exceedingly knowledgeable scholar, or someone who knew both Anders and Justice before the merger. If someone else were to make the attempt, they would have to enlist the aid someone who meets those qualifications. Preferably several someones.

I will agree that whoever were to make this attempt would have to be exceedingly open-minded and fairly well-versed in the magical theory of Thedas, or at least have a good foundation in Headology. I will admit that I am kind of assuming that if I ended up on Thedas I'd be a similar sort of person to whom I am here, so I'd be able to manage.

It all comes down to whether or not you think a human is capable of being passionate about a cause without being angry about it... which is a question that I don't know the answer to, in truth.

Anyway, the three main things I want to try:
1. Get the Anders part of Anders to try to let go of his anger, including his anger toward himself. Not his cause... just the anger associated with it.
2. Get the Vengeance part of Anders to communicate, and talk about the times when he/it has gone wrong.
3. Get Anders and Vengeance/Justice to stop constantly fighting with each other, and see if we can create a harmonious equilibrium.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 juin 2011 - 07:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

But where would you take him that would keep him from the plight of mages (at least for as long as necessary to create that equilibrium)? How would you convince him to leave?

The codex is relevant in that Justice desires to take over. You may want to try and convince Justice otherwise, but he may not agree at all and is seemingly powerful enough to exert his control over time. It's relevant in that they are not in a balanced or equal state. One is clearly getting more powerful than the other. In such a dynamic, it's harder to convince the stronger party. I have little doubt that Anders would be convinced, but Justice is really another matter.

Now I agree that it may be possible to specialists who know what they are talking about, like a Rivaini seer or a Dalish Keeper (though Merrill's master seems to imply that the Dalish are mostly as knowledgeable / ignorant when it comes to this as others. I think Rivainis are a better bet). I don't think knowing Anders and Justice before is enough though.

I don't think Anders' problem was anger perse. I think it was hatred. Anger can be righteous sometimes and a result of passion (I'd still try to avoid it as much as possible. Cooler heads prevail). But hatred is different. It almost axiomatically becomes obsessive and more focused on destroying rather than building or replacing.

I don't think it's likely you would succeed (especially on your own), but that said, it doesn't sound impossible either.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 juin 2011 - 07:24 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

As I've said before, I'm not concerned with probability. If there's any chance, I'm interested in finding out. If there's even a 1% chance I want to try.

"It could be an interesting experiment, if I but dared." 
"Don't tell me you fear the experiment?"
"I fear the result - but the experiment itself -- why that is science!"
"For science, then." 
"For Science!" 

I also think there's a decent chance of getting out of it alive if things get too hairy. I know you say that we have no plot armor, but the only things that have set Vengeance off on record are calling him a demon, directly threatening Anders, and abusing mages. If you avoid any of those, I think there's a decent chance Justice would warn you off before smiting you out of nowhere. And I'm willing to gamble on this, for the sake of gaining knowledge, knowledge that may well be completely and totally irreplacable.

I think Justice may be on the ropes somewhat after the Chantry, also. Because I think that Justice is going to be hobbled and confused by the fact that he didn't pay for killing those innocents. A lot of this does revolve around how far we can diverge from Narrative causality, and when we actually get ahold of him, but since you're discussing the act three and later period I'm going with that for now.

The key is to get them out in the woods away from everyone (which is one of the reasons I put a Dalish forth as a fairly viable helper) getting him away from mages for just a brief time, even a few days, might help clear his head. Also, to get someone who doesn't have the default generic fear of demons and abominations that most people possess. Getting into the fade to talk to him is also useful, and there are any number of people who can help us do that.

I don't interpret the codex as Justice wanting to take over entirely. I take it more this way: Anders has been trying to completely suppress Justice, which is essentially the same as trapping him, immobile, behind a pair of eyes that can see all the injustice in the world but take no action upon it. Justice is basically preventing himself from being completely reduced to a passive partner in this arrangement, which is understandable. Also, I'm not so sure that Justice cannot be convinced, again, because nobody in this bloody seven year period has even tried. I think that presented with the danger of another Ella, Justice or Vengeance may be able to learn to respond to Anders' objections in times of strife, perhaps in exchange for being allowed to exert his own will slightly more often in general.

Part of helping someone is often convincing them to go to those who can help them. Even Justice may be convinced to seek the help of his old friends who he trusts, who they both trust.

And Fear leads to anger leads to hate blah blah blah. They're all part of his problem. Fear is a significant part, actually. I'll agree that hate is pretty bad too.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 juin 2011 - 08:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think it would take months at least away from mages for it to work.
But fair enough.

I'd prefer studying him in a more secure and equipped facility. For purely instrumental reasons, I see valuable knowledge and a potential resource only. Don't really care about helping him personally. So I'd personally prefer Tevinter knowledge, mixed with Rivaini.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I still think this may well be a scenario where the gentle approach will actually lead to significantly more useful results.

Like how you generally get better information with cookies than with torture.

This is all speculation at this point, I'll admit. I hope I have at least shown you the attractiveness of the idea, to a girl with a deep sense of compassion for the actual human involved, and a love of science.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 juin 2011 - 08:08 .

[DreamerM]

Cultural Geek Girl, that you have a treatment regimen worked out for Janders, and that it seems that detailed and perhaps even likely to work (definitely worth trying) is kind of a summation on why I am a fan of yours.

Just saying.

[highcastle]

I've long said that Justice gets a bad rap even among Anders fans, and I'm not convinced it's fully deserved. Because of Justice, Anders becomes much more altruistic than he ever was before. While Anders was willing to help people when he happened to stumble across them before the merger, afterwards he really goes out of his way to do so. That clinic in the Undercity calls so much attention to him, but still he risks his skin to help the refugees. I don't see pre-Justice!Anders doing that.

And I agree with Elle that on the friendship path at least, Anders definitely gains more control over himself. And the struggle he faces to reconcile himself with no longer being fully human is vey compelling. Yes, it's a trope we've seen before, but it was used well here, in my opinion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I still think this may well be a scenario where the gentle approach will actually lead to significantly more useful results.

Like how you generally get better information with cookies than with torture.

This is all speculation at this point, I'll admit. I hope I have at least shown you the attractiveness of the idea, to a girl with a deep sense of compassion for the actual human involved, and a love of science.

I was not thinking of torture. Of course emotional manipulation would be required. Kind of like what Xanatos did to the experiment with the animal / human hybrids.

You've shown me the potential attractiveness, but not so much how sensible it is (though the general idea of balancing the two, in concept, sounds sensible). Especially when you apparently think that it's a question of a few days, while what I had in mind is at least months, if not years of seclusion from the world. Maybe even permanently.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 juin 2011 - 01:47 .

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I still think this may well be a scenario where the gentle approach will actually lead to significantly more useful results.

Like how you generally get better information with cookies than with torture.

This is all speculation at this point, I'll admit. I hope I have at least shown you the attractiveness of the idea, to a girl with a deep sense of compassion for the actual human involved, and a love of science.

I was not thinking of torture. Of course emotional manipulation would be required. Kind of like what Xanatos did to the experiment with the animal / human hybrids.

You've shown me the potential attractiveness, but not so much how sensible it is (though the general idea of balancing the two, in concept, sounds sensible). Especially when you apparently think that it's a question of a few days, while what I had in mind is at least months, if not years of seclusion from the world. Maybe even permanently.  

I think when she mentioned a few days it was in regards to getting him away from the chaos of the city to get him calmed down enough before even trying to start the process.

------------------------------------------------

Personally I don't think that total seclusion for more than a couple of months would be anything more than counter-productive. (Did that make sense? I think it did.) He'd be too distracted by all the things he should be doing to help people.

But, uh. I think that the biggest hurdle would be that you'd have to talk to Justice himself. From what Anders says on his little box, he is well aware of what he's done. It begs the question as to how much he's aware in general on what's going on in his head, and if his biggest questions are just what all of that stuff means. I think that, aside from rivalry path where he has black-outs, he's pretty self-aware in general.

Talk therapy has its uses, but at some point, if someone has already spent years examining themselves and questioning themselves, talking about it with another person isn't really going to help, and he'd just remember all the reasons he's upset at the world. Anders seems to be holding Justice back to a certain extent in the beginning, but if Hawke is in rivalry he loses the willpower to keep doing it. "If nobody's going to treat me any better, than why should I make the effort?" And if Hakwe is in friendship, well, Justice is a fickle partner but he'll help him get the job done.

So, Anders seems rather capable of exerting a healthy amount of self-control. It's Justice that needs to be calmed down, and he's the one who needs to be guided into being able to better understand how the world outside the Fade works. If you tell Anders he's not an abomination but he still has this cranky spirit inside him, his belief that he's not isn't going to make the spirit any less cranky, so he won't believe you. "Alright, if I'm not an abomination, I'm still not something pleasant. I can't go about my day without worrying about this guy in my head."

I think this has been mentioned before on this thread? But Justice makes it impossible for Anders to ignore all the reasons why he has grown into the person that he has. Ignoring the upsetting things in his life kept them at an emotional distance from him. Certainly any talk therapy would have to try to avoid the past, I think. The past is a tricky thing. Dredging up the sludge from the bottom of the river always makes the rest of the river really, really dirty for a while. You get to talking, and you remember upsetting stuff that you forgot, and you get upset at them all over again, and instead of like airing these things out to dry, you throw them onto the fire instead and you get pissed off at the crap people have made you deal with.

Hmm-hmm talk therapy can only go so far. I think he'll just feel better in general after blowing up the Chantry. XD He creates a reason to start fighting full-out. He removed his own compromise, not just that of Meredith and Orsino. Bwahaha!


..... Oh, and KoP, thanks. ^^ I like how the picture came out. I'm surprised I got their faces looking as good.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That's the thing, I don't think therapy works on a spirit. It will need actual expertise, but this subject seems to be very obscure to common mages, with the possible exception of Rivainis.

EDIT: and I say years because I would have experiments in mind.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 juin 2011 - 04:32 .

[beckaliz]

Ah, I gotcha. Yeah I agree. I can't imagine, for example, that spirits have any kind of coping mechanism that you can help strengthen through therapy.

Well, after drawing such a cute picture of them, I've got to suck it up and go make Correm execute his boyfriend. Can't put it off any longer.

Modifié par beckaliz, 29 juin 2011 - 05:27 .

[ForgeDark]

I've always thought that Anders associates the sides of his personality he doesn't like with Justice, and the sides he does with himself. I think it is far more complex than Justice being a separate entity which you can speak to, and I do believe him when he says even a scholar couldn't tell which of his thoughts are 'his' and which are Justice's. Even when he is acting as Justice, I still think a part of it is Anders. When Justice comes out, I don't think it is an unreasonable situation for ANYONE to lose control - I think most people would lose control if someone they cared about was made Tranquil. They just wouldn't glow blue. I think that the personality of Anders changed when he merged with Justice, but that in fact they partly or almost completely merged, Anders got extra 'powers' from it, but he has never learned to accept what he has become. This causes the split when he is angry, and the angry side of him is something he doesn't like and therefore calls it Vengeance. There is a Justice/Vengeance half to him, but that part has taken bits from Anders (an almost blanket hatred of Templars, I'm not sure a true Justice spirit would be like that), and the Anders part has taken things from Justice (the clinic being something I couldn't imagine DAA anders doing. Which is why he should never worry about Justice taking over at the clinic, because I think that part of him is mostly Justice already).

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I was not thinking of torture. Of course emotional manipulation would be required. Kind of like what Xanatos did to the experiment with the animal / human hybrids.

You've shown me the potential attractiveness, but not so much how sensible it is (though the general idea of balancing the two, in concept, sounds sensible). Especially when you apparently think that it's a question of a few days, while what I had in mind is at least months, if not years of seclusion from the world. Maybe even permanently.  

I should have known you were too sensible to be suggesting actual torture.

beckaliz has the right idea about the timetable. I didn't actually think any significant progress would happen in mere days, I was getting tired at that point, forgive me. I agree that the entire process would be extremely lengthy, and probably ongoing for the rest of his life. I more thought it was possible Justice might show signs of being slightly more reasonable fairly rapidly when removed from the crap that is Kirkwall.  Once they're away from the problem for a short time, they might at least become reasonable enough to realize that whoever is trying to help them is not trying to hurt them, or keep them from their cause. As a result they might be willing, at minimum, to avoid putting themselves in an actively destructive and negative situation again until they had a markedly better degree of self-control. (Note: I'm continuing to vaguely referr to them both singly and collectively at this point, because we haven't even done step 1 yet, which is figure out how divergent Justice and Anders are, and whether or not Vengeance is a distinct entity).

You might have to find a way to make Justice feel like he was still contributing to the cause somehow, or at least that they were in legitimate danger of committing serious injustices if he tried to get to heavily involved again before they solidify their mutual self-control and clarity. Making small, practical plans to help small groups of mages would help. Setting up a temporary stop on the mage railroad, for instance, that would help apostates or refugees on their way to Ferelden or Rivain. There are other possibilities too... at this point, a lot of this requires being adaptable and playing things by ear when it comes to the level of participation required to prevent frustration and the amount of time they would be willing to take themselves out of thick of things.

I don't think physical confinement is likely wise or necessary, considering Anders' former trauma related to imprisonment. If that turns out to be the only way he can be prevented from running off directly to Orlais to personally punch the Divine in the face, then we have a substantially tougher road ahead. I think. A physically confined Anders would be markedly less emotionally stable.

It's here that actually caring about them and being in love with them would help. I'm not seeing the romantic entanglement as simply a tool in the process of course. (I'm legitimately attracted to Anders for many other reasons; the compassion, the depth of feeling, the inquisitiveness, etc). But love and support from someone who genuinely cares would help Justice and Anders be more comfortable and more likely to accept themselves, I think, as well as more likely to submit to treatment. This isn't a 'love conquers all' romantic notion... more the psychological one that dictates that emotional support is important for mental health. 

I acknowledge the social sciences are largely hoodoo (this is coming from someone with a degree in the social sciences), but in a magical world that benefits us, seeing as we also have access to actual hoodoo.  I invoke Science! in this discussion because have a completely different toolset at our command than mundane psychology. We get into the realm of magical theory, and a lot of the thoughts and ideas I have are very trial and-error-based here. We're throwing science at the wall here to see what sticks, here! That said, Justice did show a desire to understand things in Awakenings. He asks Velanna to help him understand why she feels enmity toward humans. He tells her that though she must atone for her actions, just attempting to teach people to understand her is enough, even if it does not work.

There are a lot of variables and strategies here that it would take too much time and space to elucidate on. I could quickly make a mental list of dozens of things I have to determine about Justice, Vengeance, and Anders in order to narrow down likely treatments (including how truly divergent and separate they are anymore), and from there there are so many different ways to proceed. He is an entirely new thing, and much more complex in my mind that a simple cancer or superpower. The sheer glee of the unknown, standing on the steps of the frontier of your boyfriend... a man so complicated that he's also an anthropomorphic personification... it's like space exploration and xenoanthropology and magical theory all wrapped up in the saddest brown eyes I've ever known.

The combination of love and an entirely new field of science to which I am particularly suited, and where I can make the very first steps, where I can land on the moon, and where doing so has a high chance of actually helping the person I love? Yeah. That is incredibly attractive.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 juin 2011 - 06:28 .

[ForgeDark]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

There are a lot of variables and strategies here that it would take too much time and space to elucidate on. I could quickly make a mental list of dozens of things I have to determine about Justice, Vengeance, and Anders in order to narrow down likely treatments (including how truly divergent and separate they are anymore), and from there there are so many different ways to proceed. He is an entirely new thing, and much more complex in my mind that a simple cancer or superpower. The sheer glee of the unknown, standing on the steps of the frontier of your boyfriend... a man so complicated that he's also an anthropomorphic personification... it's like space exploration and xenoanthropology and magical theory all wrapped up in the saddest brown eyes I've ever known.

I think the problem with deciding if Justice/Anders are truly divergent is whether it makes a difference what Anders thinks. There are two ways it could be: They truly are separate, or Anders just thinks they are. I'm not sure if it would be possible to distinguish between the two, but I think the difference between those things would be very important . If they really are separate, they will probably have to remain so and trying to make it otherwise would just fail. If Anders just thinks they are, then I think you would need to make him one again. Throughout the game he gives very mixed messages about whether they are one or two people, I don't think he knows himself which is why I am inclined to think that Anders makes them different rather than because it needs to be that way. But trying to help but picking the wrong option could make things even worse than they already are.

Modifié par eyeofhorus87, 29 juin 2011 - 06:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ CGG
What I find attractive is how much thought you've put into this lol.

Chapeau and I appreciate the effort you put into explaining. I still think it's highly unlikely to work, but it sounds worth a shot. But in terms of the appeal, while I do not believe that many would share your perception, I can see how it can be appealing, even if a bit, what's the word I am looking for. Unusual, shall we say.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 juin 2011 - 06:47 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Random question, The Warden was able to give the demon inside Connor the boot just by going into the Fade and killing it. What was keeping Hawke from doing the same with Justice?

[ipgd]

As I've written before, the only explanation I can come up with the reconciles the inconsistencies is that some of those inconsistencies are self-determinated by Janders himself, because he wants to believe that Anders and Justice retain more individuality than they actually do. He tends to describe Anders and Justice as one when he is at his most self-deprecating, and very often speaks of Justice as an autonomous entity when he is feeling guilty, perhaps wanting to absolve "Anders" (whom he identifies with) of "Justice's" crimes through scapegoating.

I'm not sure if it's an entirely satisfactory explanation, but there are so many inconsistencies in his descriptions of the nature of his merger that it's the only thing I really think makes sense of them.

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Random question, The Warden was able to give the demon inside Connor the boot just by going into the Fade and killing it. What was keeping Hawke from doing the same with Justice?

Connor's demon was controlling him from the Fade, whereas Justice is physically located within Anders's body.

Modifié par ipgd, 29 juin 2011 - 06:42 .

[beckaliz]

@CGG

For the record, I've loved reading all that. You've got a lot of interesting ideas. And all
About helping our poor lost brown-eyed puppy. :3

(btw execution = FAIL. I couldn't do it. I'll have to try again later.)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

@KoP This discussion helped me come up with some of this stuff. If nobody asks any questions, I don't have reasons to delve into things further. But yes, I am nothing if not unusual.

eyeofhorus87 wrote...
I think the problem with deciding if Justice/Anders are truly divergent is whether it makes a difference what Anders thinks. There are two ways it could be: They truly are separate, or Anders just thinks they are. I'm not sure if it would be possible to distinguish between the two, but I think the difference between those things would be very important . If they really are separate, they will probably have to remain so and trying to make it otherwise would just fail. If Anders just thinks they are, then I think you would need to make him one again. Throughout the game he gives very mixed messages about whether they are one or two people, I don't think he knows himself which is why I am inclined to think that Anders makes them different rather than because it needs to be that way. But trying to help but picking the wrong option could make things even worse than they already are.

A shocking... shocking amount of psychology is just "let's try this and see if it makes them better. No? Ok, try something else." There are a number of psychologcal dugs in widespread use that we have no real idea how or why they work. It's basically Dr. House on steroids. Did you know that sometimes the only way to determine which disorder someone actually has is to feed him all the pills and see which one actually ends up working? Yes I am exaggerating for comedic effect, but only slightly... only slightly. This is one of the reasons I love the social sciences... at this point most of the physical sciences are just very difficult math, or measuring and cataloguing minute differences, or doing elaborate and exacting experiments... things that I don't have an exceptional aptitude for. I'm not going to ever be a revolutionary chemist, I just don't have the numbers. 96th percentile in math will get you a big bag of 'not good enough' in some of the higher sciences. But we don't even know what SHAPE most of human sexuality is! Is dominance and submissiveness hardwired, or is it culturally imprinted? Nobody's even started to look at that, and that's... literally insane. I could come up with a comprehensive Kinsey style survey on cultural norms in sexuality in like six hours, and it wouldn't require that much math until the analytical stage (note: if you funded me to do this, I promise to spend more than six hours on it). The main problems are funding and ethics... but when you're screwing with your not-quite-human boyfriend's head, you don't need funding or ethics! Ahahahahahaha! I will do science to it. Ahem, Sorry, sorry. You need some ethics, I'm sure.

While determining whether or not they're seperate in conception or fact is a good start, it's not even vital to guess right, though I think it is important to figure out how he percieves them, and whether this perception actually changes from moment to moment, or whether how he explains it is simply changing. Whether or not he can be spoken with productively while he glows blue is more important, and speaking with him in the fade may be useful too (though I appreciate the increased challenge of doing without that.) The point is to try things and check in to see if all aspects, percieved or real, of the whole person are improving or not.

[kromify]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Or create more questions.

those are the best kind of answers  

CulteralGeekGirl wrote...   Is dominance and submissiveness hardwired, or is it culturally imprinted? Nobody's even started to look at that, and that's... literally insane.

i imagine getting the go ahead for the more fun studies would be difficult to obtain. governments just don't let things slip under the radar the way they used to...  

Modifié par kromify, 29 juin 2011 - 07:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

@KoP This discussion helped me come up with some of this stuff. If nobody asks any questions, I don't have reasons to delve into things further. But yes, I am nothing if not unusual.

Now I feel better about asking those questions then

Seriously though, you're putting as much thought on this as I did on politics (primarily Ferelden). It's good to see I am not alone.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Now I feel better about asking those questions then

Seriously though, you're putting as much thought on this as I did on politics (primarily Ferelden). It's good to see I am not alone.

This is the Ridiculous Overthinking center of the DA2 boards, I think.

[kromify]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Now I feel better about asking those questions then

Seriously though, you're putting as much thought on this as I did on politics (primarily Ferelden). It's good to see I am not alone.

This is the Ridiculous Overthinking center of the DA2 boards, I think.

but at least in areas they have at least a passing knowledge! without a degree in pyschology or poly sci i don't have much to add... anyone interested in why such an extraordinary advantage over fellow humans like magic didn't become fixed in the population??? before the circles rose up and effectively castrated a lot of mages!!