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[River5]

highcastle wrote...

I've long said that Justice gets a bad rap even among Anders fans, and I'm not convinced it's fully deserved. Because of Justice, Anders becomes much more altruistic than he ever was before. While Anders was willing to help people when he happened to stumble across them before the merger, afterwards he really goes out of his way to do so. That clinic in the Undercity calls so much attention to him, but still he risks his skin to help the refugees. I don't see pre-Justice!Anders doing that.

And I agree with Elle that on the friendship path at least, Anders definitely gains more control over himself. And the struggle he faces to reconcile himself with no longer being fully human is vey compelling. Yes, it's a trope we've seen before, but it was used well here, in my opinion.

This.  So much.

Also,

Spirits are static beings living in an ever moving world...
Mortals are ever moving beings living in a static world...

I say "static", but I mean the word loosely...

My point is that Justice is used to embody "justice" in a place that he can shape according to his will.

Anders is used to having the world around him remain the same, while he keeps experiencing different emotions, thoughts, needs, and urges depending on the situation.

In psychology, we often say that anger is a direct manifestation of a need that wasn't met.

Considering how many times Anders has been forced to completely ignore or give up on his own needs and wants, I can't really blame him for having so much anger inside of him.  It's perfectly normal, and I would even be worried if it wasn't so.

But Justice probably doesn't know how to adapt to Anders' anger (and other emotions) without being able to immediately change the world around him to fit his needs. 

He doesn't see the solution to human emotions as the resolution of an internal conflict (because the "driving force" behind a spirit's motivations is pretty stable), but as being an external necessity.  If I feel this, than the world must change in order to meet my expectations.

Time has no meaning for spirits in the Fade.  Patience and waiting for change to occur gradually is not something that Justice understands.

I don't think that Justice has turned, or is turning into a demon.  He just lacks the human ability to adapt to the internal changes we experience on a day to day basis, and understand the way we choose to assign priority to our needs and wants instead of trying to solve everything all at once.

[Heidenreich]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Now I feel better about asking those questions then

Seriously though, you're putting as much thought on this as I did on politics (primarily Ferelden). It's good to see I am not alone.

This is the Ridiculous Overthinking center of the DA2 boards, I think.

At this point, I prefer the Ridiculous Overthinking to the Mindless Fluff.

<3 for Ridiculous Overthinkers!

[kromify]

a little bit of both for me, spiced with a pinch of absurdity

[YamiSnuffles]

Over thinking implies that we are, perhaps, thinking too much about this stuff. Which is nonsense of course.

Sadly I - much like Anders- get a bit too confused to coherently discuss Justice much. The idea of them being sperate on both ends and all mixed up in the middle is kind of growing on me. So Justice blue, Anders yellow, and a good spectrum of Janders green in the middle. *is drawing right now so color on the brain*

[ipgd]

I'm pretty sure I've contributed at least a novel's worth of pretentious overanalysis to this thread by now. Why devote critical thought to important things when you can write essays about video games all day !?!?! YYEEEEEAAAHHHH

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...

a little bit of both for me, spiced with a pinch of absurdity

Flirting. Don't forget the flirting.

I lose interest pretty quickly without it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 juin 2011 - 08:05 .

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...

a little bit of both for me, spiced with a pinch of absurdity

Flirting. Don't forget the flirting.

I lose interest pretty quickly without it.

overthough essays sprinkled with absurd flirting. i am enraptured and terrified... 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

@KoP This discussion helped me come up with some of this stuff. If nobody asks any questions, I don't have reasons to delve into things further. But yes, I am nothing if not unusual.

Now I feel better about asking those questions then

Seriously though, you're putting as much thought on this as I did on politics (primarily Ferelden). It's good to see I am not alone.

Sadly almost all Ferelden political debate revolves around the specific tactical value of what Anders did, which is a subject upon which you and I fundamentally disagree. If I recall, we agree about a lot of the other fundamental political issues (though not necessarily about how they relate to the field of ethics and sociology.)  Also I keep getting called away in the middle of debates and when I get back the thread is talking about babies and I feel guilty poking the hornets nest or re-dredging the argument that was annoying people. I don't care about it in THIS THREAD, of course, but other places... yeah.

(One thing: I'm honestly surprised that strategic use of assassination hasn't spread that far beyond Antiva. It's so useful! Organized assassination and thievery are two of my favorite things about Discworld, and despite the fact that what we've heard about Antiva is probably grossly exaggerated, I find it really entertaining to contemplate.)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 juin 2011 - 08:19 .

[highcastle]

River5 wrote...

This.  So much.

Also,

Spirits are static beings living in an ever moving world...
Mortals are ever moving beings living in a static world...

I say "static", but I mean the word loosely...

My point is that Justice is used to embody "justice" in a place that he can shape according to his will.

Anders is used to having the world around him remain the same, while he keeps experiencing different emotions, thoughts, needs, and urges depending on the situation.

In psychology, we often say that anger is a direct manifestation of a need that wasn't met.

Considering how many times Anders has been forced to completely ignore or give up on his own needs and wants, I can't really blame him for having so much anger inside of him.  It's perfectly normal, and I would even be worried if it wasn't so.

But Justice probably doesn't know how to adapt to Anders' anger (and other emotions) without being able to immediately change the world around him to fit his needs. 

He doesn't see the solution to human emotions as the resolution of an internal conflict (because the "driving force" behind a spirit's motivations is pretty stable), but as being an external necessity.  If I feel this, than the world must change in order to meet my expectations.

Time has no meaning for spirits in the Fade.  Patience and waiting for change to occur gradually is not something that Justice understands.

I don't think that Justice has turned, or is turning into a demon.  He just lacks the human ability to adapt to the internal changes we experience on a day to day basis, and understand the way we choose to assign priority to our needs and wants instead of trying to solve everything all at once.

Good point! It's easy to forget that spirits have dominion over the Fade and not over the mortal realm. I have to imagine there's a large amount of frustration on Justice's part at not being able to "fix" everything he wants to as easily as he may have in the past. This may also be the reason why Janders turned to the explosion. Because it's a big, one-fell-swoop type action akin to what he must be used to in the Fade.

And I refuse to acknowledge all this speculation as overthinking. Pish-posh! That implies there's something better I could be doing with my time right now.

[beckaliz]

Well, telling him you're terrified is definitely a good way to get started.

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...

a little bit of both for me, spiced with a pinch of absurdity

Flirting. Don't forget the flirting.

I lose interest pretty quickly without it.

overthough essays sprinkled with absurd flirting. i am enraptured and terrified... 

What's up with you people here knowing how to push my buttons?


@ CGG
By Ferelden I meant before DA2. In regards on how to turn it into a major player.

And I know right!
I thought about my DA:O canon (Arcturus) using assassination and misdirection quite often.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 juin 2011 - 08:22 .

[River5]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Over thinking implies that we are, perhaps, thinking too much about this stuff. Which is nonsense of course.

Sadly I - much like Anders- get a bit too confused to coherently discuss Justice much. The idea of them being sperate on both ends and all mixed up in the middle is kind of growing on me. So Justice blue, Anders yellow, and a good spectrum of Janders green in the middle. *is drawing right now so color on the brain*

Anders is YELLOW!!!  ROTFLMAO! 

Sorry, now I can't help but think about Anders throwing a Yellow party.

www.youtube.com/watch

Doesn't help that Brice has long blond hair too!

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...

a little bit of both for me, spiced with a pinch of absurdity

Flirting. Don't forget the flirting.

I lose interest pretty quickly without it.

overthough essays sprinkled with absurd flirting. i am enraptured and terrified... 

What's up with you people here knowing how to push my buttons?

one more essay and i'll be running away screaming. this is also directed at you CGG 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

@KoP

Ah right right. I wish I'd been on these boards when DA:O was new, but I don't think I would have appreciated it as much back then. Who knows.

One of the problems with political debate in fantasy universes is that I'm always working toward utopian ideals, something that reading the OZ books at a young age instilled in me. And when I'm not working towards Utopia, I'm looking for a symbiotic bureaucracy run by a competent organizer of some type, which is actually equally implausible in many ways. One of the things that frustrates me so much about Thedas in general is how poor espionage and information gathering seems to be. Nobody knows what anyone else is doing, or what knowledge they have, or anything. When the most informed person in your civilization is the hero who appeared less than two years ago, you have a serious problem.

Also,@the anders thread in general, I'm not the flirtiest flirt, but at this point if you can't infer the connection between debate, compliments, and flirting for me, you really don't need to.

In other words, I may be joining your open marriage soon. Everybody is indeed kissing everybody.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 juin 2011 - 08:33 .

[YamiSnuffles]

River5 wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Over thinking implies that we are, perhaps, thinking too much about this stuff. Which is nonsense of course.

Sadly I - much like Anders- get a bit too confused to coherently discuss Justice much. The idea of them being sperate on both ends and all mixed up in the middle is kind of growing on me. So Justice blue, Anders yellow, and a good spectrum of Janders green in the middle. *is drawing right now so color on the brain*

Anders is YELLOW!!!  ROTFLMAO! 

Sorry, now I can't help but think about Anders throwing a Yellow party.

www.youtube.com/watch

Doesn't help that Brice has long blond hair too!

That was terrifying. And now I'm totally imagining Anders doing that in Darktown. This is my new head!canon.

[kromify]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

@KoP

Ah right right. I wish I'd been on these boards when DA:O was new, but I don't think I would have appreciated it as much back then. Who knows.

One of the problems with political debate in fantasy universes is that I'm always working toward utopian ideals, something that reading the OZ books at a young age instilled in me. And when I'm not working towards Utopia, I'm looking for a symbiotic bureaucracy run by a competent organizer of some type, which is actually equally implausible in many ways. One of the things that frustrates me so much about Thedas in general is how poor espionage and information gathering seems to be. Nobody knows what anyone else is doing, or what knowledge they have, or anything. When the most informed person in your civilization is the hero who appeared less than two years ago, you have a serious problem.

Also,@the anders thread in general, I'm not the flirtiest flirt, but at this point if you can't infer the connection between debate, compliments, and flirting for me, you really don't need to.

In other words, I may be joining your open marriage soon. Everybody is indeed kissing everybody.

mwahahahaaaa! you will be assimilated. resistance is futile  

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

@KoP

Ah right right. I wish I'd been on these boards when DA:O was new, but I don't think I would have appreciated it as much back then. Who knows.

One of the problems with political debate in fantasy universes is that I'm always working toward utopian ideals, something that reading the OZ books at a young age instilled in me. And when I'm not working towards Utopia, I'm looking for a symbiotic bureaucracy run by a competent organizer of some type, which is actually equally implausible in many ways. One of the things that frustrates me so much about Thedas in general is how poor espionage and information gathering seems to be. Nobody knows what anyone else is doing, or what knowledge they have, or anything. When the most informed person in your civilization is the hero who appeared less than two years ago, you have a serious problem.

Also,@the anders thread in general, I'm not the flirtiest flirt, but at this point if you can't infer the connection between debate, compliments, and flirting for me, you really don't need to.

In other words, I may be joining your open marriage soon. Everybody is indeed kissing everybody.

I wrote a blog about it, the link is in my sig.

I am not utopian, but I am usually progressive / reformist yea and I dislike systems that stagnate and don't evolve over time. But it's true, when the only one who seems to be competent is the PC who disapears anyhow, you have a problem. And the reason behind that, imo, is that Bioware is generally bad at writing political plots / settings, with characters that are actually competent. Part of the reason why DA2 frustrates me that much (less so in Origins, but it suffered from the same fundamental design philosophy).

And yay, another one. A few more and Queen will join us!

My minion army is getting another branch, euh I mean. I love all of you. <3

[KnightofPhoenix]

kromify wrote...
mwahahahaaaa! you will be assimilated. resistance is futile  

You will service...us

[ipgd]

Back on the subject of the Anders/Justice merger: I honestly wish they'd just gone straight out and made Anders and Justice two people in the same head. It would have been quite a bit simpler, for one. But he makes contradictory statements that simply cannot both be true, and I can't think of any psychological justifications to take Anders's statements describing them as fully merged as the emotionally dishonest ones; in the cases where he ascribes autonomy to Justice, it is almost invariably negative and defensive. Those are the statements I have to find suspect.

That's also the main problem I have with the "spectrum" hypothesis. It's technically possible to be true -- but given that he is very definitive and emphatic when describing Anders/Justice as being fully merged and indiscernible, it also contradicts his statements on that matter. Obviously his wildly incompatible statements mean that the true nature of it would be contradictory to one group of them no matter what, but I cannot find a satisfactory emotional explanation for why he would describe A/J as being fully merged when they are not in the same way I can to explain why he describes Justice as more separate than he actually might be.

Modifié par ipgd, 29 juin 2011 - 08:44 .

[kromify]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kromify wrote...
mwahahahaaaa! you will be assimilated. resistance is futile  

You will service...us

anytime. <3

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And yay, another one. A few more and Queen will join us!

So, this is your plan, is it? IS IT?!

... It's working

My plans never fail my dear

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

Back on the subject of the Anders/Justice merger: I honestly wish they'd just gone straight out and made Anders and Justice two people in the same head. It would have been quite a bit simpler, for one. But he makes contradictory statements that simply cannot both be true, and I can't think of any psychological justifications to take Anders's statements describing them as fully merged as the emotionally dishonest ones; in the cases where he ascribes autonomy to Justice, it is almost invariably negative and defensive. Those are the statements I have to find suspect.

That's also the main problem I have with the "spectrum" hypothesis. It's technically possible to be true -- but given that he is very definitive and emphatic when describing Anders/Justice as being fully merged and indiscernible, it also contradicts his statements on that matter. Obviously his wildly incompatible statements mean that the true nature of it would be contradictory to one group of them no matter what, but I cannot find a satisfactory emotional explanation for why he would describe A/J as being fully merged when they are not in the same way I can to explain why he describes Justice as more separate than he actually might be.

Frankly, this is why JAnders did not turn out to be as interesting as I thought he would be pre-launch (he was easily my most anticipated character). Because either I am not really grasping what he is (which maye have been intented), or I am simply confused by what he is saying (which could also be intended).

I won't say he was badly written, primarily because I am still not sure how he was supposed to be written. I think Justice should have recieved more air time for us to make more sense of it.  I share CGG's sentiment that it is annoying that we never get to really communicate with Justice, even if it's in vein.