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The Anders Thread: Flash Fic Contest! Details on Pg. 2274


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#46851
CulturalGeekGirl

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Edit for top:
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cute.

Arg, I'm at that place where there are several serious posts in earlier pages that I still want to respond to, but I don't have the brain for them at the moment, so more nonsense it is! 

maxernst wrote...

@CGG, I agree that as it stands, the Circles don't do a very good job of "serving mankind" as Andraste instructed the mages to do. I suppose they serve mankind when they fight the Blight, but they didn't allow many mages to go to Ostagar, though I got the impression that the entire surviving Circle was sent to Denerim for the end battle.

That said, does magical healing have any advantages over herbalism? I suppose there's the lack of dependence on particular herbs, but I can't see why you wouldn't be able to farm elfroot and it seems to be fairly abundant naturally anyway. One of the things I find striking in the DA universe (at least as expressed in the games), is that magic seems to have very limited use outside of combat. Maybe it's just a game mechanic thing and they've drained out the non-combat magic with the non-combat gameplay, but it seems like there's remarkably little divination, communication or transportation magic, compared to most RPG systems. Illusions? Invisibility? I don't think we even see a simple light spell or a spell to open locked doors? The fact that crazy Grace whines about not being able to elude the Circle because they have no provisions (like that's my fault??), suggests that they don't have the ability to create food and water.


I'm fine with there being no transportation or magical conjuration of food and water spells, for conservation of mass reasons, at the very least. It seems to me that magically conjured physical things (like grease and ice) dissipate rapidly when the caster stops focusing on them, which is a reasonable and practical rule. There are some silly 'conjuring or teleporting people or magical creatures' subquests in the original circle tower, if I recall correctly. In some cases you conjure something that runs off, in other cases it disappears, and in one case you can kill it and its corpse will stick around like any other corpse. So there is some degree of conjuration possible, the limits are just very hazy. I need to play DA:O again.

That said, teleportation is one of those 'changes everything' technologies that you can't regularly employ without solving too many useful problems. Same for distance communication. In my opinion having giant scary currently corrupted elf mirrors be the only things that can do teleportation and instantaneous distance communication is spot-on perfect for world balance.

I'm actually good with invisibility being impossible, for a number of different reasons. I've long been of the opinion that actual flight (as opposed to featherfall or minor levitation) and invisibility should be used sparingly, especially in magic-light worlds (which Thedas is. Not to the extreme of ASoIaF, but magic isn't a central part of every single human's day). Invisibility should be, at best, very hard to achieve though possible if completely stationary. I'm fine with just throwing it out the window completely though. Solves a lot of problems, and there's no reason why it logically needs to work. Even in the magic-heavy world of Harry Potter, you need a rare and expensive magical item with limited versatility to achieve invisibility.

Not having knock, camouflage, or stealth is probably for class balance reasons (another design vs. realism thing). That no unlocking thig is more annoying, because there's no real reason why that shouldn't work, especially if you're effectively just melting/exploding/using telekinesis on a lock.

Simple light spells are a thing that should exist. There's no reason to believe they don't... but still.

The limitation of magic to the manipulation of forces and limited conjuration of matter (which rapidly dissipates when focus is removed) is a good balance that ensures magic doesn't completely replace the pursuit of technology or completely ruin the economy.

As for healing itself, the general impression I get is that herbalism is for treatment, and healing is for active intervention. Like, if you break your arm a potion's not going to set it and knit it back together, whereas a healer can do that. This doesn't manifest in gameplay as much (all injuries are equal in regards to potions vs. heal spells), but that's what I gathered from conversations in both games about both disciplines. There are some situations that herbalism handles better (poison and poison cures, for instance), and some where magic is better (putting your intestines back inside you.) If you've just gotten bruised or lost a lot of blood, healing and herbalism will do the same amount of good fixing you up, but a lot of stuff responds better to one or the other, IMO. Also, herbs are limited and can be 'picked clean' by overuse, to the extent that there won't be more available for weeks or months, whereas any healer who is at full mana is 'wasting' a resource that could be actively replenishing itself... if that makes sense?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 juin 2011 - 12:01 .


#46852
YamiSnuffles

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LadyVaJedi wrote...

You go Yami! I see Anders as Old Ben Kanobi. ( crap I can't spell )


So I couldn't resist this one. Anders Kenobi:
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Aaaaand... resume normal discussion.

#46853
Toastyblue2

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Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

LadyVaJedi wrote...

Well IMO Stan Lee said it best With Great power comes great responsibility.


Stan Lee for companion in DA3?

I would buy and play the crap out of that game.


Varric as Wolverine.
Male!Hawke as Beast.
Anders as Cyclops.
Isabella as Emma Frost.
Fenris as Angel.
Merril as Jean Grey.

This is now in my head. :wizard:

#46854
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*

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maxernst wrote...

I saw injury kits in DA:O cure cracked skulls, torn jugulars and crushed arms nstantaneously as well.  i can't say about disease, but Myrthal's Favor in DA2 appears to do exactly the same thing as the abilities of Anders and Wynne to revive unconscious party members.


Which I attribute to game mechanics.

#46855
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Toastyblue2 wrote...


Varric as Wolverine.
Male!Hawke as Beast.
Anders as Cyclops.
Isabella as Emma Frost.
Fenris as Angel.
Merril as Jean Grey.

This is now in my head. :wizard:


Someone must draw this.

YamiSnuffles, I demand that you draw this.

#46856
CulturalGeekGirl

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Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I saw injury kits in DA:O cure cracked skulls, torn jugulars and crushed arms nstantaneously as well.  i can't say about disease, but Myrthal's Favor in DA2 appears to do exactly the same thing as the abilities of Anders and Wynne to revive unconscious party members.


Which I attribute to game mechanics.


Much more concise way to put what I put above.

Though reviving unconsciousness could definitely plausibly be herbalism (smelling salts, stim packs, etc.) 

#46857
KnightofPhoenix

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

In a lot of ways, KoP reminds me of that one guy who takes 19th century romantic literature partially because he enjoys it and partially because he knows he'll be the only dude in a class full of educated ladies. In a good way, though. Those dudes are often much more savvy about the way the world works.


Lol because ladies are much better and smarter company.

#46858
maxernst

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Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...



They're called electives! That guy never is actually after a degree in 19th century romantic literature! See also: the dude who takes Home Ec instead of shop.

Though in the case of Anders, healing is actually a worthwhile degree. The problem with my real world example is that there are few largely female-dominated disciplines that are as blatantly practical as healing. In that case, it's the guy who takes a female-centric elective rather than the more male-dominated one.


Healer mages are stated to be the most sought-after, because their abilites are so valuable and because Creation is difficult to master. So any mage invested in becoming a healer would probably be let out of the Tower a lot more than others, so that Anders is a healer makes perfect sense to me. Then again, I have argued several times for making healers available to the common public, because I imagine that death by nature occurs rather often in a world without significant medical science and it needn't be so. Just look at how much Anders manages to do on his lonesome.

... And I realize I'm not actually responding to anything you're saying. Uhm. Carry on then.


Don't you think Anders unusual healing skills might be because of Justice?  The only other exceptional healer we've seen in the games was Wynne, who also had a fade spirit to help her out and she couldn't teach her specialization to another mage.  Well, I suppose you could argue that she simply wouldn't, but I'm not sure I see a motivation for her refusing, unless she's paranoid that if the Warden or Morrigan learns the Spirit Healing discipline, she'll get shipped back to the Circle Tower.

#46859
Toastyblue2

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Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Toastyblue2 wrote...


Varric as Wolverine.
Male!Hawke as Beast.
Anders as Cyclops.
Isabella as Emma Frost.
Fenris as Angel.
Merril as Jean Grey.

This is now in my head. :wizard:


Someone must draw this.

YamiSnuffles, I demand that you draw this.


I left out Aveline, Carver, and Bethany. I feel horrible!

Uh, uh, uh...Aveline as Rogue, Carver as Magneto, and Bethany...no idea.

Bonus Orsino as Professor X and Donnic as Gambit.  B)

#46860
River5

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Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

LadyVaJedi wrote...

Well IMO Stan Lee said it best With Great power comes great responsibility.


Stan Lee for companion in DA3?

I would buy and play the crap out of that game.


Lol!  I second that!  :D

#46861
maxernst

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I saw injury kits in DA:O cure cracked skulls, torn jugulars and crushed arms nstantaneously as well.  i can't say about disease, but Myrthal's Favor in DA2 appears to do exactly the same thing as the abilities of Anders and Wynne to revive unconscious party members.


Which I attribute to game mechanics.


Much more concise way to put what I put above.

Though reviving unconsciousness could definitely plausibly be herbalism (smelling salts, stim packs, etc.) 


Actually, in DA:O, I don't think mages were able to heal injuries at all.  You had to either rest or use an injury kit.

I see what you're saying about game mechanics, but philosophically, I feel that what we see in the game should reflect the "reality" of Thedas as closely as possible, so unless there's clear unequivocal lore that contradicts it, I assume what we see is the way it is. 

#46862
YamiSnuffles

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Toastyblue2 wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Toastyblue2 wrote...


Varric as Wolverine.
Male!Hawke as Beast.
Anders as Cyclops.
Isabella as Emma Frost.
Fenris as Angel.
Merril as Jean Grey.

This is now in my head. :wizard:


Someone must draw this.

YamiSnuffles, I demand that you draw this.


I left out Aveline, Carver, and Bethany. I feel horrible!

Uh, uh, uh...Aveline as Rogue, Carver as Magneto, and Bethany...no idea.

Bonus Orsino as Professor X and Donnic as Gambit.  B)


I would draw this but it would take forever. :crying: As would photoshopping it with this many people. So... um... use the power of imagination! :wizard:

#46863
CulturalGeekGirl

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maxernst wrote...

Don't you think Anders unusual healing skills might be because of Justice?  The only other exceptional healer we've seen in the games was Wynne, who also had a fade spirit to help her out and she couldn't teach her specialization to another mage.  Well, I suppose you could argue that she simply wouldn't, but I'm not sure I see a motivation for her refusing, unless she's paranoid that if the Warden or Morrigan learns the Spirit Healing discipline, she'll get shipped back to the Circle Tower.


In short, yeah. It's been implied that the best healers interact with spirits in some way, and especially gifted healers like Anders or Wynne probably develop much closer relationships with the fade spirits who help them, in the long term. That said, Anders was a pretty darn good healer pre-Justice as well... he's just even better now.

I think that the kind of people who have aptitude for spirit healing also probably have something "about them" that makes spirits more drawn to them, and thus makes them a better candidate for spirit possession. It's been implied in the codex that doing too much mucking about in this way may make you more prone to demonic possession as well, if you happen to be careless when one of the spirits you usually work with isn't around to help you. In my mind all good healers have casual relationships with fade spirits, but having a deeper relationship with one makes you an amazing healer.

#46864
CulturalGeekGirl

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maxernst wrote..

Actually, in DA:O, I don't think mages were able to heal injuries at all.  You had to either rest or use an injury kit.

I see what you're saying about game mechanics, but philosophically, I feel that what we see in the game should reflect the "reality" of Thedas as closely as possible, so unless there's clear unequivocal lore that contradicts it, I assume what we see is the way it is. 


I can probably explain all this, but right now I'm too lazy. TOO LAZY. I'd have to study the components for various healing potions in both games, and compare them to gather sites for those items, what particular status ailments each cures, and price them at merchants, and screw all that. I don't care enough.

Just go with the "herbs are a finite resource that can be completely eradicated if overpicked, wheras mana's replenishment is constant and not diminished by overuse." 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 juin 2011 - 12:22 .


#46865
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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Much more concise way to put what I put above.

Though reviving unconsciousness could definitely plausibly be herbalism (smelling salts, stim packs, etc.) 


Concise is what I do. I'll leave the long analytical posts to you :P

True. I simply cannot see herbs realistically, no matter how fantastic, managing to treat more than minor wounds over a larger period of time. And injury kits during gameplay instaheals things that normally would require extensive surgery with quite some time to rest and recover, so I don't take them seriously either.

And I can see even more uses for magic in healing than what is found in the Creation tree alone. I fanwank so much over medical science in context with healing magic that I even created a character in my head who dedicates herself to it.

#46866
KnightofPhoenix

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I can probably explain all this, but right now I'm too lazy. TOO LAZY. I'd have to study the components for various healing potions in both games, and compare them to gather sites for those items, what particular status ailments each cures, and price them at merchants, and screw all that. I don't care enough.

Just go with the "herbs are a finite resource that can be completely eradicated if overpicked, wheras mana's replenishment is constant and not diminished by overuse." 


Elfroot is the primary compenent:
"The common name for canavaris, this herb actually has little to do with elves other than being commonly collected and traded to outsiders by theDalish. It is the primary ingredient in many healing salves."
Value: 50 coppers.

However, it's not so much the herbs, but the other compnents that are crucial.
Like distillation agent:
"One of the three rare bulbs found in the Frostback Mountains, when dried and powdered they become an excellent distillation agent required to evoke magical properties in crafting."
Value 12 silver.

Whic begs the question. Does that mean that Ferelden has a crucial resource that it never bothered to take advantage of? Or that the world was stupid enough not to notice Haven?

Does that mean that only Orlais and Ferelden have access to disllitation agents, and they export them elsewhere?
But apparently, in Kirkwall, they can make a potion only with elfroot (stupid new crafting system). So....why does it cost so much? If supply is low and demand is lower because it's not needed, it should be worth 2 coppers.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2011 - 12:32 .


#46867
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maxernst wrote...

I see what you're saying about game mechanics, but philosophically, I feel that what we see in the game should reflect the "reality" of Thedas as closely as possible, so unless there's clear unequivocal lore that contradicts it, I assume what we see is the way it is. 


But it doesn't. Blood magic should be so OP that we would steamroll right through the game, we should be poked at by demons as mages, abominations should be ultra-powerful, but they aren't. There are so many places here where game mechanics don't fit the reality at all that there is no reason to believe that it does in this instance. I have yet to play a single game where medipacks aren't so improbably amazing that they can't bring a character back from the brink of death. So I maintain that it's simply game mechanics.

#46868
YamiSnuffles

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Wasn't herbalism a strictly mage specialty in game anyway? So it's still a case of mages could be helping medical problems in Thedas way more than the Chantry allows.

#46869
berelinde

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

maxernst wrote..

Actually, in DA:O, I don't think mages were able to heal injuries at all.  You had to either rest or use an injury kit.

I see what you're saying about game mechanics, but philosophically, I feel that what we see in the game should reflect the "reality" of Thedas as closely as possible, so unless there's clear unequivocal lore that contradicts it, I assume what we see is the way it is. 


I can probably explain all this, but right now I'm too lazy. TOO LAZY. I'd have to study the components for various healing potions in both games, and compare them to gather sites for those items, what particular status ailments each cures, and price them at merchants, and screw all that. I don't care enough.

Just go with the "herbs are a finite resource that can be completely eradicated if overpicked, wheras mana's replenishment is constant and not diminished by overuse." 

Spirit Healer mages have the oportunity to take a talent that prevents any injury at all. Presumably, they are so adept at treating field injuries that wounds never become infected, concussions never make people barf, and piercing chest trauma never deflates a lung. Go team!

Recently, I discovered the joys of running a force mage/spirit healer PC in tandem with Anders. I'm never going back.

And FWIW, KoP is the manly man in a room full of people who like manly men. He has an opinion. He is intelligent. Is it any wonder the Anders thread is all over him?

Edit: In DA:O, anyone could take herbalism. Only Wynne got it automatically.

Modifié par berelinde, 30 juin 2011 - 12:32 .


#46870
CulturalGeekGirl

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@KoP

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

And as someone who knows devs, I have suspicions that they just said "hey crafting guy, make us an herbalism system with x, y, and z potions" and then he did, and none of it had to make any lore sense. I'm not even being CYNICAL saying that... it's just one of those time investment to how-much-anyone-actually-cares ratio things that does not necessarily warrant lore-team intervention. Note: just guessing.

Also, it's implied in DA2 that a lot of diseases are treatable with salves and potions, but others may be completely curable with magic. So who the heck knows! 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 juin 2011 - 12:34 .


#46871
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*

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YamiSnuffles wrote...

I would draw this but it would take forever. :crying: As would photoshopping it with this many people. So... um... use the power of imagination! :wizard:


LAZY KNOBS MAYBE I SHOULD DO IT THEN GOSH

BUT I CAN'T COLOR WITH PHOTOSHOP BECAUSE IT ALWAYS BEATS ME UP AND STEALS MY LUNCH MONEY

#46872
KnightofPhoenix

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Edit@KoP

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

And as someone who knows devs, I have suspicions that they just said "hey crafting guy, make us an herbalism system with x, y, and z potions" and then he did, and none of it had to make any lore sense. I'm not even being CYNICAL saying that... it's just one of those time investment-to-how-much-anyone-actually-cares ratio things that does not necessarily warrant lore-team intervention. Note: just guessing.

Also, it's implied in DA2 that a lot of diseases are treatable with salves and potions, but possibly completely curable with magic. So who the heck knows! 


If I had gone to med school like originally planned a long time ago, I would have started to tear my hair off.

#46873
KnightofPhoenix

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berelinde wrote...
And FWIW, KoP is the manly man in a room full of people who like manly men. He has an opinion. He is intelligent. Is it any wonder the Anders thread is all over him?


Plus, I love cats.
So no, it's no wonder at all :P

#46874
CulturalGeekGirl

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Edit@KoP

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

And as someone who knows devs, I have suspicions that they just said "hey crafting guy, make us an herbalism system with x, y, and z potions" and then he did, and none of it had to make any lore sense. I'm not even being CYNICAL saying that... it's just one of those time investment-to-how-much-anyone-actually-cares ratio things that does not necessarily warrant lore-team intervention. Note: just guessing.

Also, it's implied in DA2 that a lot of diseases are treatable with salves and potions, but possibly completely curable with magic. So who the heck knows! 


If I had gone to med school like originally planned a long time ago, I would have started to tear my hair off.


I... also originally planned on going to med school, and did not end up doing so.

Are you the evil mirror version of me from another dimension? 

And yeah, magical healing is one of those things that you usually can't analyze too closely in an cRPG system, for a number of reasons. RPG healing has to serve a very specific game mechanic purpose that is usually fundamentally incopatible with developing a solid and consistent magical theory about how it works.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 juin 2011 - 12:39 .


#46875
YamiSnuffles

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berelinde wrote...

Edit: In DA:O, anyone could take herbalism. Only Wynne got it automatically.


Okay, thank you. It's been quite a while since I played DA:O, so I couldn't quite remember. I think I just got it confused because- for whatever unexplainable reason- Morrigan was always the one I used to make potions and such.