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[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I... also originally planned on going to med school, and did not end up doing so.

Are you the evil mirror version of me from another dimension? 

And yeah, magical healing is one of those things that you usually can't analyze too closely in an cRPG system, for a number of reasons. RPG healing has to serve a very specific game mechanic purpose that is usually fundamentally incopatible with developing a solid and consistent magical theory about how it works.

Could be.... O_O
My family is full of physicians, and I was named after my physician grandfather who always wanted me to be one. It was kind of the family thing, but I decided against it at 17. Even though I was really good at biology and chemistry. 

I personally prefe the system that makes potions heal you over time, instead of instantly (yea yea, it's the same game that shall not be named that does this). But were I a genicist, I'd probably find the concept painful to examine as well (cause it's all about magic supported genetic engineering).

[KnightofPhoenix]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Edit: In DA:O, anyone could take herbalism. Only Wynne got it automatically.

Okay, thank you. It's been quite a while since I played DA:O, so I couldn't quite remember. I think I just got it confused because- for whatever unexplainable reason- Morrigan was always the one I used to make potions and such.

Am I the only one who RPs extensively when it comes to this?

I can't possibly imagine Oghren being a herbalist.

[Giggles_Manically]

He brews his own beer though.
That does require some know-how.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He brews his own beer though.
That does require some know-how.

Assuming it's not actually his urine as alluded to.
Ew.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Are you the evil mirror version of me from another dimension? 

Careful. The last time I encountered and evil mirror version of me, we ended up fighting to the death on a plateau over a river of molten lava which was unpleasant and ruined my nicest shoes.

Who won?

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He brews his own beer though.
That does require some know-how.

Assuming it's not actually his urine as alluded to.
Ew.

Err... Wynne drank it recall?

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 30 juin 2011 - 12:49 .

[berelinde]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If I had gone to med school like originally planned a long time ago, I would have started to tear my hair off.

I... also originally planned on going to med school, and did not end up doing so.
...

True story. I planned on going to med school and ran out of money. I settled on being a chemist. Considering what the pharm industry is doing right now, I should have learned to like ramen noodles and taken out a bazillion loans.

In other news, my M!Hawke X Anders fanfic is coming along. Got the first chapter down. I'm not going to publish it until I've got 3 or 4 chapters done, though. There's already plenty of Anders fic out there to keep people happy (Hi-C's comes to mind!) so mine is more of a "I need to do it for me" thing rather than anything that will enrich the field of DA2-related literature.

[berelinde]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He brews his own beer though.
That does require some know-how.

I brew beer. All it takes is basic cooking skills and a clean kitchen.

[River5]

Because I've always wanted to hear Justice say that... 

[ElZeeTrois]

Quick question, something bothered me when I dealt with the Qunari and the mages/templars. Wasn't the only reason Ferelden was able to boot the Qunari out was because we had a metric ****ton of mages? Or did I imagine that bit of history?

[berelinde]

ElZeeTrois wrote...

Quick question, something bothered me when I dealt with the Qunari and the mages/templars. Wasn't the only reason Ferelden was able to boot the Qunari out was because we had a metric ****ton of mages? Or did I imagine that bit of history?

I thought it was because the Qunari pretty much left Ferelden alone. Sten says that eventually, he will have to face Fereldens across a battlefield and that he will not look for the Warden when that day comes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He brews his own beer though.
That does require some know-how.

Assuming it's not actually his urine as alluded to.
Ew.

Err... Wynne drank it recall?

I know, hence why it's funny.

No but seriously, any dwarf can brew beer, it's not like herbalism. Oghren making potions feels...out of place.
Just like Wynne making poisons (other than her venomous tongue).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Who won?

I give the impression of being evil? Why I never.

The one who likes cats is still alive. That should answer your question If there is a better way to measure one's level of goodness than looking their taste in pets I have surely never heard of it.

Well for me "evil" generally means hot

And I agree. Heck I once got into a fight for the sake of a cat.

[YamiSnuffles]

River5 wrote...
-snip Batmanders-
Because I've always wanted to hear Justice say that... 

Well, there was this picture from a bit ago:

[River5]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

River5 wrote...
-snip Batmanders-
Because I've always wanted to hear Justice say that... 

Well, there was this picture from a bit ago:

LOL!  Even better!  

Modifié par River5, 30 juin 2011 - 01:01 .

[ElZeeTrois]

berelinde wrote...

ElZeeTrois wrote...

Quick question, something bothered me when I dealt with the Qunari and the mages/templars. Wasn't the only reason Ferelden was able to boot the Qunari out was because we had a metric ****ton of mages? Or did I imagine that bit of history?

I thought it was because the Qunari pretty much left Ferelden alone. Sten says that eventually, he will have to face Fereldens across a battlefield and that he will not look for the Warden when that day comes.

It's in a codex entry...ah ha! Found it "the New Exalted Marches" 

"The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the Qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the Qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed."

You'd think with the Qunari squatting there for so long they want to keep a few more skilled mages around, just in case.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Well for me "evil" generally means hot

And I agree. Heck I once got into a fight for the sake of a cat.

Oh, you. You always say the sweetest things

And seriously? As in fisticuffs or a word-fight?

Well it wasn't so much a fight as only one punch in his face and him taking the message while picking himself up from the floor. He cursed a bit, then got out of my sight to fix his nose bleed.

My school had taken us to a swimming pool (was 16 I believe). That idiot thought it funny to take a small blind cat (black fur, very beautiful, though sadly nonfunctional eyes) and throw her in the pool, which he did. I tried to tell him to stop because he wanted to be amused further, he laughed loudly (which btw usually irritates me very quickly) and I am not sure what he said because by that time my fist was already in the air.

And that was the only time I actually got into a physical fight with someone. 

I dried the cat off, bought her food and told the stupid manager to take care of her. Which I doubt he did
Sadly back home, there were a lot of stray cats.

True story.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2011 - 01:24 .

[maxernst]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I see what you're saying about game mechanics, but philosophically, I feel that what we see in the game should reflect the "reality" of Thedas as closely as possible, so unless there's clear unequivocal lore that contradicts it, I assume what we see is the way it is. 

But it doesn't. Blood magic should be so OP that we would steamroll right through the game, we should be poked at by demons as mages, abominations should be ultra-powerful, but they aren't. There are so many places here where game mechanics don't fit the reality at all that there is no reason to believe that it does in this instance. I have yet to play a single game where medipacks aren't so improbably amazing that they can't bring a character back from the brink of death. So I maintain that it's simply game mechanics.

I can handwave those things away without too much difficulty.  The PC and companion blood mages may only have the basics of blood magic down or simply believe that it's too dangerous to use the more extraordinarily abilities (which may also be why they aren't plagued by demons).  NPC blood mages are super powerful:  they can mind control large numbers of people, and summon huge numbers of shades.   You don't think Gaspard, Quentin, and that blood mage at the docks in Act 3 are uber-powerful? My assumption is that the reason the mind control doesn't work on the PC and his companions is that they're too strong minded to be mind-controlled because they're exceptional people.  Which is also why in a relative sense, abominations aren't that strong.  Abominations are very strong relative to normal people, which would be represented by the lowest tiers of thugs in the game.  Hell, Uldred and Connor struck me as pretty impressively strong, too.

And there are certainly games where magical healing clearly exceeds anything that can be done with herbs/potions/medpacks.  There are LOTS of games that allow spellcasters to bring back the dead.  There are also games where unconscious characters bleed until dead, but potions can only be applied to the conscious, so spells are needed to revive unconscious characters. I don't see any compelling evidence that mage healing is all that far beyond what herbs can do in Thedas and there's nothing in the lore or the game to suggest elfroot is endangered.  In fact, game mechanics suggest that at least in certain instances, herbalism exceeds magic, and I can't see any reason why Bioware would deny mages the ability to cure injuries from a game mechanics perspective.  So I conclude that relative to magical healing is relatively limited in Thedas, unlike the situation in many, many other games where it clearly trumps potions.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
And yeah, magical healing is one of those things that you usually can't analyze too closely in an cRPG system, for a number of reasons. RPG healing has to serve a very specific game mechanic purpose that is usually fundamentally incopatible with developing a solid and consistent magical theory about how it works.

My family is full of physicians, and I was named after my physician grandfather who always wanted me to be one. It was kind of the family thing, but I decided against it at 17. Even though I was really good at biology and chemistry. 

I personally prefe the system that makes potions heal you over time, instead of instantly (yea yea, it's the same game that shall not be named that does this). But were I a genicist, I'd probably find the concept painful to examine as well (cause it's all about magic supported genetic engineering).

I prefer the system in Shadowrun (tabletop), where technological and magical healing are completely different entitites that serve different functions. Sometimes either can be effectively used to solve a particular problem and sometimes can interfere with each other - to the point where if you use some of the tech stuff on a mage, you could seriously damage them - but they have consistent rules. There are some other systems that are relatively sane and reasonable, but it all ultimately comes down to Phoenix Down on Aeris situations: sometimes out of combat is not the same as in combat, deal with it. (too lazy to find a gif. What is wrong with me tonight?) 

Don't get me started on magical genetics. That's not going to end well.

I think it's very possible to devise a magic powers vs. potions system that is both functional and makes sense lore-wise. The problem is that 90% of your players won't care and, most of them just want something like what they're used to, so if you shift things too much they'll get grumpy. Man I am super cynical today.

(As for my medical school decision, I went into college expecting to do pre-med with a focus on psychiatric, and ended up realizing I was better at thinking sensibly about people's problems than I was at chemistry, so I dropped the medical portion. And then I never used that degree anyway!)

[maxernst]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I see what you're saying about game mechanics, but philosophically, I feel that what we see in the game should reflect the "reality" of Thedas as closely as possible, so unless there's clear unequivocal lore that contradicts it, I assume what we see is the way it is. 

But it doesn't. Blood magic should be so OP that we would steamroll right through the game, we should be poked at by demons as mages, abominations should be ultra-powerful, but they aren't. There are so many places here where game mechanics don't fit the reality at all that there is no reason to believe that it does in this instance. I have yet to play a single game where medipacks aren't so improbably amazing that they can't bring a character back from the brink of death. So I maintain that it's simply game mechanics.

I can handwave those things away without too much difficulty.  The PC and companion blood mages may only have the basics of blood magic down or simply believe that it's too dangerous to use the more extraordinarily abilities (which may also be why they aren't plagued by demons).  NPC blood mages are super powerful:  they can mind control large numbers of people, and summon huge numbers of shades.   You don't think Gaspard, Quentin, and that blood mage at the docks in Act 3 are uber-powerful? My assumption is that the reason the mind control doesn't work on the PC and his companions is that they're too strong minded to be mind-controlled because they're exceptional people.  Which is also why in a relative sense, abominations aren't that strong.  Abominations are very strong relative to normal people, which would be represented by the lowest tiers of thugs in the game.  Hell, Uldred and Connor struck me as pretty impressively strong, too.

And there are certainly games where magical healing clearly exceeds anything that can be done with herbs/potions/medpacks.  There are LOTS of games that allow spellcasters to bring back the dead.  There are also games where unconscious characters bleed until dead, but potions can only be applied to the conscious, so spells are needed to revive unconscious characters. I don't see any compelling evidence that mage healing is all that far beyond what herbs can do in Thedas and there's nothing in the lore or the game to suggest elfroot is endangered.  In fact, game mechanics suggest that at least in certain instances, herbalism exceeds magic, and I can't see any reason why Bioware would deny mages the ability to cure injuries from a game mechanics perspective.  So I conclude that relative to magical healing is relatively limited in Thedas, unlike the situation in many, many other games where it clearly trumps potions.

Sorry, this doesn't really have much to do with Anders...but, I say all evidence is that while some mages with exceptional relationships with the Fade (like Anders & Wynne) may have healing abilities that exceed the best herbalists, in general magical healing is, if anything, weaker in Thedas than herbs.  Though admittedly not limited by herb availability.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

maxernst wrote...
I don't see any compelling evidence that mage healing is all that far beyond what herbs can do in Thedas and there's nothing in the lore or the game to suggest elfroot is endangered.  In fact, game mechanics suggest that at least in certain instances, herbalism exceeds magic, and I can't see any reason why Bioware would deny mages the ability to cure injuries from a game mechanics perspective.  So I conclude that relative to magical healing is relatively limited in Thedas, unlike the situation in many, many other games where it clearly trumps potions.

There's a huge difference between endangered and finite. I've actually done herbalism, gone on gathering expeditions out in the wild for medically useful, edible, or crafting herbs. There are rules: don't take the whole plant if you can avoid it, if you need root systems, only take one plant from a group. If there's only one plant and you have to kill it to get what you need, leave it alone unless you really, really need that thing.

Herbalists have to go tramping out in the world looking for things, with no guarantee that they'll find them and also there are monsters. Mages just have to have a bit of a lie-down. If you harvest 90% of the elfroot plants in a ten square mile radius, next year there will be substantially less elfroot regrowth. If a mage drains themselves of all mana, it will replenish at the same rate it would if they only used half of their mana. Now, the game is limited. You can't comb every square inch of land, so your gathering of every elfroot you see doesn't interfere with it regrowing.

Also, that kid who Anders heals in his cutscene looks like he is inured in such a way that he can't be helped by herbalism. Isabella says that curing STDs is 'what magic is for.' Wynne's spirit prevents her death in a way that no herb could, etc.

If potions can cure everything, why aren't they more expensive? Why isn't elfroot? If they're so cheap, why does anyone who isn't a complete pauper need Anders' help? Why is there no clear correlation between the need for medical treatment and the price of potions and herbs? Blah blah blah.

I'm just not confident in doing extensive worldbuilding intuition based on random systems design. If you want to, though, by all means.