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[upsettingshorts]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Also, Anders is nothing compared to the awesomeness that is Wrex (especially in ME2), imo.

Wrex wishes he had the plot relevance of Anders.

That said, he might get that wish in Mass Effect 3.

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

No no, I was saying he has the "dead in too many saves" problem.

Then I said that the "hated" problem was in addition to that. But hated doesn't matter so much as well... dead does.

Oh, gotcha. 

I didn't mind Wrex not being a squaddie in ME2, because the stuff on Tuchanka was interesting, and his greeting of Shepard was one of the highlights of the game.  Compare to Horizon and it cements why he is awesome and Ashley/ Kaidan are a pile of fail.

[DreamerM]

Hey guys, hope you don't mind if I gatecrash here to repost something that I actually posted in a Merril Thread because I am weird like that.

It's my thoughts on the differences between DA:A Anders vs. DA2 Anders. Take them for the little they are worth.

Commence control-paste:

I think Anders's eventual possession by Justice and role in starting the mage/templar war was probably one of the few things Bioware actually knew about their plans for both characters when creating them for Awakening and beyond. But what wouldn't surprise me is if, due to DA:2's super-rushed production time, the three (I'll call them Anders, Justice, and Janders) were actually being written at the same time, by different writers who were not comparing notes on their personalities and attitudes.

Gaider, who wrote Anders for Awakening, created his character the way he imagined him: a fun-loving mage who always had an undercurrent of rage about the injustices he's suffered but still somehow seems mentally stable and more-then-equipt to handle the cruelty of the world. Heck, Anders himself will even tell Justice that his unrelenting drive means he doesn't understand reality. He even manages to be kind and compassionate, putting himself (and even his freedom) on the line to save others. Altogether, I think he's one of the most appealing, and most balanced, characters Bioware's ever created.

Jennifer Hapler had a different vision for him. She knew he was possessed by a spirit of Justice, and to her that he could not rest, he could not eat, he could barely think about anything except his cause. She used real-life mental illnesses to inform her portrayal of his psychological breakdown, and used words like "Tranquil Solution" (read "Final Solution"), had him writing out a "manifesto" a la Karl Marx, threw in a Weather Mage Underground to forshadow his final William Ayres/Timothy McVeigh moment when he decides that the Cause is greater then the lives of
everything and he will kill EVERYONE if it will just make the injustice STOP.

Personally, I thought Halpler's use of SYMBOLISM!@#@!!!11 was heavy-handed, but considering the stakes involved, it still could have worked. Problem was, many gamers were straining for glimpses of the Anders from Origins, the guy who could shrug off anything with a quip, regardless of circumstances. And that just wasn't going to be there, because it couldn't be. They didn't have enough time to make that happen.

I was also impressed by Adam Howden's acting. The guy delivered easily the most emotional performance in the game (even his gasps for breath were full of ANGST)...but again I wonder if the reason Greg Ellis couldn't do it was that the two games were being made at the same time. It doesn't take that long to voice a character, even a central character with a lot of lines like Anders, not when compared to how long it takes to shoot an on-camera role.

Another curious development was Greg Ellis keeping his role as Cullen, who had a bigger part in this game then he had in the last one, but still didn't have THAT big of a part. He's the one Templar the Champion will call "Friend," (I guess killing Templarbinations qualifies as a bonding experience) but he spends most of the game standing in the courtyard failing to act on tips you bring him. Now, if the designers imagined a bigger part for him (like maybe making him a Companion), that would explain nicely why either he or Anders needed to be recast, since it may be awkward playing a scene opposite himself. But since that didn't happen, then why wouldn't they keep the original actor for the big role and re-cast the smaller one? Was Greg Ellis shipping out to shoot a new Pirates movie and wouldn't be back in time? We'll probably never know.

Modifié par DreamerM, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:31 .

[WeRtheBrox]

DreamerM wrote...
I was also impressed by Adam Howden's acting. The guy delivered easily the most emotional performance in the game (even his gasps for breath were full of ANGST)

I agree.  It must be rather awkward to do those passionate panting suck-face sounds to a microphone alone in a recording studio!

DreamerM wrote...
...but again I wonder if the reason Greg Ellis couldn't do it was that the two games were being made at the same time. It doesn't take that long to voice a character, even a central character with a lot of lines like Anders, not when compared to how long it takes to shoot an on-camera role.

Another curious development was Greg Ellis keeping his role as Cullen, who had a bigger part in this game then he had in the last one, but still didn't have THAT big of a part. He's the one Templar the Champion will call "Friend," (I guess killing Templarbinations qualifies as a bonding experience) but he spends most of the game standing in the courtyard failing to act on tips you bring him. Now, if the designers imagined a bigger part for him (like maybe making him a Companion), that would explain nicely why either he or Anders needed to be recast, since it may be awkward playing a scene opposite himself. But since that didn't happen, then why wouldn't they keep the original actor for the big role and re-cast the smaller one? Was Greg Ellis shipping out to shoot a new Pirates movie and wouldn't be back in time? We'll probably never know.

I recall reading a post from David Gaider, several months ago (so I don't remember word-for-word), saying something about how changes to a character can sometimes result in the VA no longer being the right fit.  While he didn't mention Greg Ellis specifically, he was the subject of the thread at the time so it's certainly implied.  Then again, I've also heard that his Pirates schedule didn't allow him enough time to do as large a role as Anders.  Maybe it's a combination of both.  As you said, we'll probably never know.

[Evilnor]

WeRtheBrox wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
I was also impressed by Adam Howden's acting. The guy delivered easily the most emotional performance in the game (even his gasps for breath were full of ANGST)

I agree.  It must be rather awkward to do those passionate panting suck-face sounds to a microphone alone in a recording studio!

I think we've sufficiently established that Howden has absolutely no shame. 

Also, he just turned 28?  That's only a few months younger than me!  Plus that accent voice!  *facenom* (pants)

[DreamerM]

WeRtheBrox wrote...

I recall reading a post from David Gaider, several months ago (so I don't remember word-for-word), saying something about how changes to a character can sometimes result in the VA no longer being the right fit.  While he didn't mention Greg Ellis specifically, he was the subject of the thread at the time so it's certainly implied.  Then again, I've also heard that his Pirates schedule didn't allow him enough time to do as large a role as Anders.  Maybe it's a combination of both.  As you said, we'll probably never know.

I'm actually not heartbroken about never really learning that, just because I prefer to believe that Greg Ellis CAN, in fact, do drama and angst when it's required of him. He pulled off Cullen's torture scenes well enough.

[kromify]

you like british accents? i'll whisper sweet nothings to you later tonight...

@ DreamerM based on a DG post which i will never find in a month of sundays i am lead to believe anders daa was written before anders da2. but that's not concrete

[DreamerM]

kromify wrote...

you like british accents? i'll whisper sweet nothings to you later tonight...

What American doesnt? Really, you brits and your accents. It's not fair.

kromify wrote...
@ DreamerM based on a DG post which i will never find in a month of sundays i am lead to believe anders daa was written before anders da2. but that's not concrete

Which is no guarentee that Jennifer Hapler got to really study DA:A before being told, "Ok, now he has Justice in his head and he's very angry. Go write!"

[ademska]

DreamerM wrote...
Which is no guarentee that Jennifer Hapler got to really study DA:A before being told, "Ok, now he has Justice in his head and he's very angry. Go write!"

*hepler, and come on, man. gaider was the head writer of da2, it's not like hepler just looked at the character model and went WELL I HAVE A BETTER IDEA! and on the off-chance a professional writer who worked her way up the ranks of an incredibly competitive market exuded that kind of unprofessional attempt at character writing, gaider had oversight.

if you still have difficulty viewing him as a single character with a significant tragic arc, i find it's easier to reconcile da2 anders vs daa anders by imagining ellis delivering howden's lines. the va difference is, imo, the most jarring thing for people to overcome.

[kromify]

 no it's not  

[DreamerM]

ademska wrote...

*hepler, and come on, man. gaider was the head writer of da2, it's not like hepler just looked at the character model and went WELL I HAVE A BETTER IDEA! and on the off-chance a professional writer who worked her way up the ranks of an incredibly competitive market exuded that kind of unprofessional attempt at character writing, gaider had oversight.

Oversight and professionalism were not the problem here. I think TIME was the problem.

[Soapbubbles]

I really wish they would have put more development time in to DA2. I still like the game enough the way it is, but waiting longer for a game wouldn't have killed me. I'm an ASoIaF fan after all.

I bet if the game had more time, it would have been everything it had promised. I remember how much I built this thing up. But sadly it was rushed. DA3 better come out in like... 2014 or something

[ademska]

DreamerM wrote...

ademska wrote...

*hepler, and come on, man. gaider was the head writer of da2, it's not like hepler just looked at the character model and went WELL I HAVE A BETTER IDEA! and on the off-chance a professional writer who worked her way up the ranks of an incredibly competitive market exuded that kind of unprofessional attempt at character writing, gaider had oversight.

Oversight and professionalism were not the problem here. I think TIME was the problem.

fair enough, and you'll certainly not find me denying the game was rushed (my gosh if only they could have had another six months, the thought makes me tingly in places), but i don't think rushed dev time precludes having at least a decent understanding of the pre-existing character for whom one is tasked to continue writing.

i mean, he's fairly simple in daa anyway...
anders: templars are mean, i'm a good if conflicted person, i tend to run away, i'm probably using humor as a self-defense mechanism for anger and anguish, wardens are the first step toward maturity because i'm really bloody immature.

i think my point is that just because you're not personally a fan of the direction hepler took the character (or rather her tendencies toward ambiguity, judging by your previous posts, which is totally fine) doesn't mean she went in blind or anything close to it. it just means you don't agree with it.

Modifié par ademska, 03 juillet 2011 - 09:46 .

[kromify]

DreamerM wrote...

kromify wrote...

you like british accents? i'll whisper sweet nothings to you later tonight...

What American doesnt? Really, you brits and your accents. It's not fair.

hee hee my flatmate just gave me a bday card about what being a true brit is all about! the timing made me giggle! being a brit is all about taunting americans!!!  

[DreamerM]

ademska wrote...
i think my point is that just because you're not personally a fan of the direction hepler took the character (or rather her tendencies toward ambiguity, judging by your previous posts, which is totally fine) doesn't mean she went in blind or anything close to it. it just means you don't agree with it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "tendencies toward ambiguity." If anything I think Halper's approach could have used a bit more ambiguity in some key places: (really, "Final Tranquil Solution?" Nothing quite like ham-fisted Holocaust references). And the pillow scene. Everyone with a brain-cell had to know he was planning to die. Why couldn't Hawke press him for details about that? Is the Champion of Kirkwall afraid of confronting a suicidal friend? Why?? Personally I think touches like that are more effective when they're more subtle.

Unless you mean her depiction of Abomination nature, which I can't make heads or tails of, but I'll forgive that since being Abominable wasn't going to be nearly as important as Anders's politics, so I can understand not worrying about that too much.

I don't "disagree with the direction hepler took the character" since the direction was dictated from the start. And I'm not trying to bash on the woman. I understand what she tried to do. I just think she probably wasn't given the time, or the resources, to achieve it properly.

Modifié par DreamerM, 03 juillet 2011 - 10:08 .

[AndreaDraco]

SurelyForth wrote...


by AnastasiyaChubar

This is quite good. The fabric of the robe is well done, as are the feathers. I also like the rain effect and the eyes: very well-drawn. Good work!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I think that the main issue was that the voice transition coincided with a major character transition, the bulk of which happened offscreen... which it didn't actually need to.

My other favorite male fictional crush of all time also had a voice change early on in his development: Zelgadis Greywords from Slayers started out with this quiet, almost preternaturally calm voice and then turned into Crispin Freeman. I was originally outraged, but since Zel was pretty much the same guy he just... spoke a bit more emotively, I was able to reconcile everything.

If we could have gotten a brief encounter with some wardens early on in DA2... with Nathaniel, Anders, and Justice on some away mission, for example... or even a group composed of Anders, Rolan, and another warden we didn't know. Actually, it would have been neat if Hawke had encountered warden!Anders who had been chipper and friendly and immature, and then had Rolan come by and actively stifle or abuse him.

"I was just talking! Andraste's flaming knickerweasels, am I not allowed to even talk to people? I am the senior grey warden here."
"Seniority is irrelevant. You are still an apostate, and I exist to keep monsters like you from running around loose."
"Oh come off it, you're supposed to have given that all up when you join the Grey Wardens! Wouldn't it be nice to put aside your loathing of mages and vow of chastity? Especially the vow of chastity bit; the things I could tell you..."
"Your behavior may have endeared you to the Hero of Ferelden, but she is not here to shield you now. I will see that tongue silenced in your head, or you shall lose it." Rolan grabs Anders by the arm, and roughly spins him around and shoves him forward.
"Ow. Ow! Maker's balls, what happened to the code of the Wardens... what was it? oh yes! brotherhood, camaraderie, and pie!"
"There's none of that where we're going, mage."

That way we'd get some of Howden delivering the classic completely irreverent and deflective lines, and a clear picture of the situation that caused Anders to decide on the merger. You could even have an armored figure who is clearly justice put his hand on Anders' shoulder after that encounter.

This is where the time thing comes in, I think. I don't think Anders is written as differently as some believe... but the voice change was so huge that it's really difficult to reconcile. It can go the other way: picture reading some of DA:A Anders' lines in Howden's voice, and you get a more emotional, less sleazy, more smouldering Awakening Anders. I don't think either voice is markedly better or worse, the problem is that the personality transition takes place at the same time as the vocal one, and thus the differences in delivery increase the impact of the differences in personality.There are a dozen ways you could give Howden a chance to deliver some Awakening-style-personality lines in the prologue, or early on. I think that the rushed nature of things probably kept them from realizing that they should do that, or from having the time to think of a way to do it neatly.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 03 juillet 2011 - 11:36 .

[legbamel]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
[Giganto snip for space]
I don't think either voice is markedly better or worse, the problem is that the personality transition takes place at the same time as the vocal one, and thus the differences in delivery increase the impact of the differences in personality. There are a dozen ways you could give Howden a chance to deliver some Awakening-style-personality lines in the prologue, or early on. I think that the rushed nature of things probably kept them from realizing that they should do that, or from having the time to think of a way to do it neatly.

Underlined for double emphasis!
I think this is part of the problem.  There are not enough moments where we get a glimpse of DA:A Anders at the beginning of the game.  Yeah, there were some great quips, but because we can't see him until he's already been JAnders for months if not a whole year we miss out on the transition.  Even a quick encounter in the Gallows (Anders disguised in peasant clothes? ) could have given us a hint (although that would have led to many more time line comlaints.  Dangit!)  Missing the gradual changes entirely coupled with having a new voice (tasty and passionate though it is) made people go .  Even I, Anders fangirl though I am, started DA2 like this: .

And if I ever use that many parentheses and smilies in a post again I might blow up my own Chantry.  

Modifié par legbamel, 03 juillet 2011 - 11:47 .

[beckaliz]

There's a lot of Answrs's old sense of humor in his party banter. WHICH SOMETIMES I HAD TO CUT OFF SOUND EFFECTS AND MUSIC TO HEAR when they get attacked because they'd just keep talking. Grrrgh.

But I have an easier time believing the personality shift, because of the fact that Anders's quippiness was his shield against thinking about his oppression. Now he can't ignore it no matter how funny he can be. I'm sure that being flippant didn't always come easily to him. Now it's like, what's the point in trying so hard? It doesn't help him anymore, and he is more driven to help people, so he's in this clinic with the injured and the sick and, I'm sure, plenty of dying. It's a REALLY depressing environment, and I don't think that most of his patients would appreciate his former sense of humor.

I'm also sure that he has more "Kittenmarsh" moments throughout the timespan of the game, but since his personal quests are more serious, and we don't have the same let's-randomly-chat-anywhere stuff in DA2, we don't see them.

So yeah, I think a big part of him just gave up.

[beckaliz]

Hahaha I accidentally changed the site language to l33t-speak. Damn iPhone browser. But I think I'll keep it.

[ipgd]

@DreamerM: I have to hand it to you; your theories have an uncanny knack for making me go "oh god what no ughhh (reads thread as quickly as possible to argue fruitlessly)".

David Gaider makes comments in this thread explaining both those issues.

I'm not certain what it is you assume I would have done differently. The role Anders plays in the sequel was set by myself as well as by the writing team, prior to anyone writing him. Even if I had been the one to write him, he most certainly would not have been the witty fellow you remember from Awakening... he's changed, in some very substantial ways, and if you're mourning the fact that he's different I can safely say that's very much part of the point.

A successful character provokes strong reactions. So I would say Anders was quite successful even if I didn't approve of Jennifer's writing job on him-- which I very much do. I think she did a stellar job. While there's always some trepidation in seeing someone else touch your baby, I had no reservations once I saw how she handled him.

I do actually have a lot of say in voice actors, but in this case it was out of our control. Shenanigans meant we could only have Greg Ellis for a smaller role-- so Cullen it was. It didn't bother me on the whole, as I like Cullen and having both characters present was going to be an issue no matter what, but in this case it's simply how the cookie crumbled.

Modifié par ipgd, 03 juillet 2011 - 02:01 .

[River5]

Evilnor wrote...

WeRtheBrox wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
I was also impressed by Adam Howden's acting. The guy delivered easily the most emotional performance in the game (even his gasps for breath were full of ANGST)

I agree.  It must be rather awkward to do those passionate panting suck-face sounds to a microphone alone in a recording studio!

I think we've sufficiently established that Howden has absolutely no shame. 

Also, he just turned 28?  That's only a few months younger than me!  Plus that accent voice!  *facenom* (pants)

No shame you say?  Nope!   None at all... 

www.youtube.com/watch

Though I seem to recall having filmed a "Scream / Halloween / Psycho" (and bunch of other movies) parody in my early 20's where I ended up in my bikini in the shower being attacked by a friend with a vibrator...  So I'm probably not one to talk.  

[Arquen]

For some reason it never bothered me that Anders' voice actor changed. I suppose I just accepted it because both do such a fantastic job of acting out the character. Also, because DAA Anders and DA2 Anders are so different it is almost like it is inevitable that his mannerisms and voice inflections/voice itself would change.

The lines delivered by Anders in DAA are so fitting of his character in DAA and his lines in DA2 are so fitting of him in DA2 that I could forgive the differences. Honestly, I look at him as a somewhat different person. Not entirely different, the old Anders is there somewhere, but drastically changed forever. It made sense to me that he would speak and act differently as well with what he has been through since Awakenings. Then again I wasn't extremely attached to Ellis although he did a fantastic job with both Anders and Cullen. I'm glad he stayed on as Cullen, but I didn't mourn his loss for Anders. Howden did a fantastic job to play the "new" Anders, and I see them as portraying even better the distinction between DAA Anders and DA2 Anders.

[highcastle]

beckaliz wrote...

There's a lot of Answrs's old sense of humor in his party banter. WHICH SOMETIMES I HAD TO CUT OFF SOUND EFFECTS AND MUSIC TO HEAR when they get attacked because they'd just keep talking. Grrrgh.

But I have an easier time believing the personality shift, because of the fact that Anders's quippiness was his shield against thinking about his oppression. Now he can't ignore it no matter how funny he can be. I'm sure that being flippant didn't always come easily to him. Now it's like, what's the point in trying so hard? It doesn't help him anymore, and he is more driven to help people, so he's in this clinic with the injured and the sick and, I'm sure, plenty of dying. It's a REALLY depressing environment, and I don't think that most of his patients would appreciate his former sense of humor.

I'm also sure that he has more "Kittenmarsh" moments throughout the timespan of the game, but since his personal quests are more serious, and we don't have the same let's-randomly-chat-anywhere stuff in DA2, we don't see them.

So yeah, I think a big part of him just gave up.

This. Particularly earlier in the game, Anders has a much greater resemblance to his DAA personality. But even in Act 2 the traces are still there. I think the most telling moment is a comparison between two banters, one in Act 2 and one in Act 3. Both are with Varric:

Anders: Boiling in oil?
Varric: Too prosaic. Trapped in a cave with hungry bears right at spring thaw?
Anders: That lets him off too easy. Dipped in molten gold and left as a statue in the Viscount's Keep.
Varric: Ooh, That's poetic.
Hawke: What're you two talking about?
Varric: What to do to Bartrand when I find him.
Anders: Any suggestions?

Here Anders is still capable of joking around with Varric. He's also doing his best to keep Varric's spirits up, showing more of his friendly and compassionate side. He can separate the pure need for revenge from the desire to just talk about it and purge some of those feelings that way. Compare to Act 3:


Varric: So, the knight-commander. Boiling in oil? That one never gets old.
Anders: This is past time for joking.
Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you.
Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that.
Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play?
Anders: Stop.
Varric: You are no fun anymore.

And here the conversation begins in exactly the same way, but Anders just doesn't have the energy for it. There are other instances, also with Varric, in which the dwarf cracks a joke early in the game only to try a similar one later on, and for Anders to be completely unable to see the humor in it at the later stages. So we really can see his personality becoming more and more muted as the game progresses. It's not a sudden drop-off as some claim. If you keep your eyes open, you really see a lot of moments which are callbacks to Anders' earlier self--even just earlier in terms of DA2--in which he's not functioning at the same level.

I haven't put too much thought into this at all. Nope.

[legbamel]

Hi-C, that's why the kittenmarsh conversation always seems so out of place to me. I love it and it's so very Anders but by that point in the game it seems almost out of character for him to be telling Warden tales and joking with Varric. That one should have come in Act 1.